Work Out Your Salvation

[Mem]

Looking at these various cross references using the same phrase, "fear and trembling," they illustrate a picture of humility.

Ephesians 6:5
1Corinthians 2:3
2Corinthians 7:15

I think this basically summarizes what everyone is trying to say though I think Adstar's hit nearest the bullseye in the explanation of 'figuring out' your own salvation, such as one would a math problem. Just keep calculating all the factors, which are given to us, until you are sure you've arrived at the solution, Father+Son+Holy Spirit = my salvation

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I will try again. The Bible tells us that God chooses us, elects us, predestines us, ordains us, appoints us to life, etc., but where does the Bible tell us that we are saved/declared just BEFORE we've come to saving faith

(I hope that does it, because I cannot think of a simpler way to ask this question!)

Thanks!

~Deut

Romans 10​

9 If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;​

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

​

I think I understand now what you mean. There is a place it says that, perhaps a couple, when Paul talks to the Romans about the "Potter and the clay." Romans 9:21-24. In particular, Romans 9:23 where Paul tells us about the vessels of mercy that God "afore prepared unto glory." That also goes along with the vessels fitted for destruction.

That tells me that, because the word prepared is used, that all the foreknowledge, will AND work was done. God was not a procrastinator.

Admittedly, it's a fatalistic approach to the doctrine, but when I keep hearing people say "accept Jesus and be saved" or "believe" or "have faith" and you'll be saved, or "invite Jesus into your heart" and you'll be saved, I just have to fall back on the truth of the scriptures and you sound very close to it by telling people they're being saved when they start believing.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

It is between you and God to determine what your idols are

This just cannot be True. We are all given a specific Sin Nature that includes very specific things. I am friends with now a very Godly man whom after speaking with me regarding the Gospel of Circumcision for perhaps thousands of hours, he has been liberated of that Sinful Nature and no longer covets other men.

All of us are given specific sins that we are attracted to. We do not determine these evils WITH God. Where are you getting this from?

 

[Evmur]

Hi Brother,

I almost misunderstood your first sentence. For the benefit of those reading this post, I think it is easy to get carried away by doing works to merit salvation. I think most religions in the world teach or advocate some kind of works-based salvation. But I think you are suggesting the contrary. If I might add, the cause-effect relationship of works vis-a-vis salvation is reversed for the Christian.

But won't you agree that the good works that a Christian is supposed to exhibit sometimes runs contrary to our nature. For example, it is sometimes easier to turn a blind eye to my own sins or the sins of others. Wouldn't this suggest that works sometimes might not come naturally to us as Christians and that some amount of effort on our part is still required.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
"Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." - ESV

Of course, one could say that I am enabled by the Holy Spirit to do good works as a Christian but it is sometimes not as easy as it sounds.

Salvation is not a prize, Paul is speaking about rewards.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

This just cannot be True. We are all given a specific Sin Nature that includes very specific things. I am friends with now a very Godly man whom after speaking with me regarding the Gospel of Circumcision for perhaps thousands of hours, he has been liberated of that Sinful Nature and no longer covets other men.

All of us are given specific sins that we are attracted to. We do not determine these evils WITH God. Where are you getting this from?

Where did the sin nature come from? Scripture says that God created humans good and without a sinful nature: “God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them”

https://www.gotquestions.org/sin-nature.html

 

[Deuteronomy]

I think I understand now what you mean. There is a place it says that, perhaps a couple, when Paul talks to the Romans about the "Potter and the clay." Romans 9:21-24. In particular, Romans 9:23 where Paul tells us about the vessels of mercy that God "afore prepared unto glory." That also goes along with the vessels fitted for destruction.

That tells me that, because the word prepared is used, that all the foreknowledge, will AND work was done. God was not a procrastinator.

Admittedly, it's a fatalistic approach to the doctrine, but when I keep hearing people say "accept Jesus and be saved" or "believe" or "have faith" and you'll be saved, or "invite Jesus into your heart" and you'll be saved, I just have to fall back on the truth of the scriptures and you sound very close to it by telling people they're being saved when they start believing.

Hello again OrphanedRepublican, indeed, "believing" itself is not a great "sign" for the reasons that you just mentioned (we need look no further than the demons to know that, as they certainly "believe" .. e.g. Matthew 8:28-29; Mark 1:23-26; James 2:19).

That said, there is more than one kind of faith, which St. James labors to explain to us in the 2nd Chapter of his Epistle.

So, what we look for (in ourselves and/or someone else who claims to believe) is the ~fruit~ or changes that believing results in .. or the lack thereof! IOW, is one's "faith" of the kind that is lively/saving, of the kind that results in all of the things that typically "accompany salvation" (good works/holy living/etc. .. e.g. Hebrews 6:9; Ephesians 2:10, Galatians 5:22-23), or is it a "dead" or "demon" faith, that results in nothing

Our 2 yr old granddaughter is on her way over here right now , so I will need to curtail this discussion for now. I hope to return to it later however (Dv), as I have not made the main points that I was hoping to make yet, and I'm hoping to hear back from you as well

God bless you!

~Deut

Galatians 5​

19 The deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,​

20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,​

21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.​

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,​

23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.​

24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

​

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Where did the sin nature come from? Scripture says that God created humans good and without a sinful nature: “God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them”

https://www.gotquestions.org/sin-nature.html

You're kidding me, right?

 

[Magpi89]

Hello again OrphanedRepublican, indeed, "believing" itself is not a great "sign" for the reasons that you just mentioned (we need look no further than the demons to know that, as they certainly "believe" .. e.g. Matthew 8:28-29; Mark 1:23-26; James 2:19).

That said, there is more than one kind of faith, which St. James labors to explain to us in the 2nd Chapter of his Epistle.

So, what we look for (in ourselves and/or someone else who claims to believe) is the ~fruit~ or changes that believing results in .. or the lack thereof! IOW, is one's "faith" of the kind that is lively/saving, of the kind that results in all of the things that typically "accompany salvation" (good works/holy living/etc. .. e.g. Hebrews 6:9; Ephesians 2:10, Galatians 5:22-23), or is it a "dead" or "demon" faith, that results in nothing

Our 2 yr old granddaughter is on her way over here right now , so I will need to curtail this discussion for now. I hope to return to it later however (Dv), as I have not made the main points that I was hoping to make yet, and I'm hoping to hear back from you as well

God bless you!

~Deut

Galatians 5​

19 The deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,​

20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,​

21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.​

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,​

23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.​

24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

​

I think this branch of the thread is going into the topic of predestination and free-will. So my take on this is that it is two sides of the same coin.

Given that God is Omniscient, then God knows everything. This implies that he knows who he elected to be saved before the foundation of the world. So that is one side of the coin.

Then for the other side of the coin, I'll just use the thief-on-the-cross example. At the eleventh hour, the thief recognized Jesus as the Messiah and believed. His faith in Jesus to deliver him, saved him and he received the gift of eternal life a few hours before his life on Earth ended.

Conclusion: God knows that the thief was an elect (God's Will) but the thief on the cross had to believe and receive Christ before he could be saved (Individual's Free-will to Choose). Similarly, God knew that mankind would fall into sin but it is not God's fault that mankind is sinful but rather, we chose to sin because of our lust and pride.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

God knew that mankind would fall into sin but it is not God's fault that mankind is sinful but rather, we chose to sin because of our lust and pride.

My Bibles all say the same thing . . .

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

 

[Magpi89]

Where did the sin nature come from? Scripture says that God created humans good and without a sinful nature: “God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them”

https://www.gotquestions.org/sin-nature.html

Our sin nature was as a result of the fall when man sinned. I agree with you that when God created Adam and Eve, He created them perfect and without sin but because of the fall, Adam and Eve sinned and their fallen nature was passed along throughout the rest of human genealogy. By descent, we inherited a sinful and fallen nature.

But I would also say that we are no exceptions to Adam and Eve. I dare say that none of us would have fared any better if we were in the Garden of Eden. We would have likewise fallen into temptation and thus, sin would have manifested regardless.

The same could not be said of Jesus. Although he was tempted by Satan when he was on Earth, he did not sin and He became the perfect sacrifice to pay the price for the rest of humanity's sins (Perfect Atonement).

1 John 2:2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. - ESV

 

[Magpi89]

Looking at these various cross references using the same phrase, "fear and trembling," they illustrate a picture of humility.

Ephesians 6:5
1Corinthians 2:3
2Corinthians 7:15

I think this basically summarizes what everyone is trying to say though I think Adstar's hit nearest the bullseye in the explanation of 'figuring out' your own salvation, such as one would a math problem. Just keep calculating all the factors, which are given to us, until you are sure you've arrived at the solution, Father+Son+Holy Spirit = my salvation

Yes I agree with most who have responded. "Work Out" does not mean "Figuring Out" or "Finding Out". Salvation is not elusive.

And also as I alluded to earlier, the "Working Out" is that process of Sanctification once you have received the gift of Salvation.

For anyone that interprets this verse to mean " work for your salvation " or anything else that is some how focuses on sanctification misses the entire point of the letter . Its not about self or focusing on your own walk , making sure your working out , or about not sinning ect . Look at the next verses before and After . Its about selflessness, sacrifice, service and such . For the furtherance of the Gospel.

ThroughFaith, I see Philippians 2:1-18 as an exhortation by Paul to Christians to walk blamelessly in the manner as Christ did. Wouldn't you agree that this passage is applicable for us as part of the process of Sanctification?

 

[throughfaith]

Yes I agree with most who have responded. "Work Out" does not mean "Figuring Out" or "Finding Out". Salvation is not elusive.

And also as I alluded to earlier, the "Working Out" is that process of Sanctification once you have received the gift of Salvation.





ThroughFaith, I see Philippians 2:1-18 as an exhortation by Paul to Christians to walk blamelessly in the manner as Christ did. Wouldn't you agree that this passage is applicable for us as part of the process of Sanctification?

No thats not the focus. That would be focusing on yourself . Instead its about not minding your own things , selflessness and minding the things of others .

 

[throughfaith]

Looking at these various cross references using the same phrase, "fear and trembling," they illustrate a picture of humility.

Ephesians 6:5
1Corinthians 2:3
2Corinthians 7:15

I think this basically summarizes what everyone is trying to say though I think Adstar's hit nearest the bullseye in the explanation of 'figuring out' your own salvation, such as one would a math problem. Just keep calculating all the factors, which are given to us, until you are sure you've arrived at the solution, Father+Son+Holy Spirit = my salvation

" Figure out your salvation " ,would be contrary to the central theme of the chapter . Not focusing on yourself.

 

[throughfaith]

Yes I agree with most who have responded. "Work Out" does not mean "Figuring Out" or "Finding Out". Salvation is not elusive.

And also as I alluded to earlier, the "Working Out" is that process of Sanctification once you have received the gift of Salvation.





ThroughFaith, I see Philippians 2:1-18 as an exhortation by Paul to Christians to walk blamelessly in the manner as Christ did. Wouldn't you agree that this passage is applicable for us as part of the process of Sanctification?

The whole point is ' serving others ' , looking our for the needs of others and furtherance of the gospel . Whilst other places in the Nt are about sanctification, I don't believe that's the focus of philippians. Its about selflessness not self focusing.

 

[throughfaith]

It says ""work out"" this does not say do works..

It could have said figure it out.. fighure out salvation.. Investigate the Gospel message of Jesus and find out / figure out / work out what you need to believe and trust in to have eternal life with God..

Of course We need to believe Jesus ( His teachings ) and Trust in the Atonement He secured by his death on the cross that atones for the transgressions of all who trust in His Atonement..

This would be 'self 'focused. But the chapter is about selflessness.

 

[throughfaith]

3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.



20For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state.

21For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

22But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel.

Notice here ,this is not about sanctification. Nor is it about you . Its about ' others ' . The moment you make it about ' working for ' your salvation or sanctification you've missed the point . Its about furtherance of the Gospel. No matter what the situation ' work out ' for the furthering of the gospel.

 

[throughfaith]

Would you be dissatisfied if I quoted the NLT? Here's how they understand Phil 2:12 (and verse 13):

Philippians 2:12-13 NLT - "Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. 13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him."

I think this is taking the assumption that its about sanctification. This would be focusing on ' self ' . The chapter is encouraging not to do this .
20For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state.

21For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

22But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel.

 

[Mem]

Yes I agree with most who have responded. "Work Out" does not mean "Figuring Out" or "Finding Out". Salvation is not elusive.

And also as I alluded to earlier, the "Working Out" is that process of Sanctification once you have received the gift of Salvation.

Thank you, I'm aware of others' views and don't mind if take liberty to also voice my own.

" Figure out your salvation " ,would be contrary to the central theme of the chapter . Not focusing on yourself.

Unless it is figuring in self examination, of course, which is central to the adoption of an attitude of humility, as a central characteristic of humility is relative to the regard for others, i.e. my post #41 attempt to illustrate my approach to the component of the humble spirit in any work done with fear and trembling.

Looking at these various cross references using the same phrase, "fear and trembling," they illustrate a picture of humility.

Ephesians 6:5
1Corinthians 2:3
2Corinthians 7:15

I think this basically summarizes what everyone is trying to say though I think Adstar's hit nearest the bullseye in the explanation of 'figuring out' your own salvation, such as one would a math problem. Just keep calculating all the factors, which are given to us, until you are sure you've arrived at the solution, Father+Son+Holy Spirit = my salvation

 

[throughfaith]

Thank you, I'm aware of others' views and don't mind if take liberty to also voice my own.



Unless it is figuring in self examination, of course, which is central to the adoption of an attitude of humility, as a central characteristic of humility is relative to the regard for others, i.e. my post #41 attempt to illustrate my approach to the component of the humble spirit in any work done with fear and trembling.

Other letters including this one have already established the Christians 'position 'in Christ and how should walk . Romans being a good example . Imo philippians 2 is not about 'self examination ', sanctification, or any other 'self 'focused idea. Its the exact opposite of this . Its about the persecution they are going through. And Just like Paul's example of his salvation ( even in chains) is working out for the furthering of the gospel . They are also to follow the example. Not to be detered by the persecution, but rather to press on ,serving others , helping others, not focusing on self , FOR the furthering of the Gospel . See how many times Paul says "for the gosepl " . In light of them having salvation, work out ( following the example of Paul in prison , and ultimately Jesus ) that salvation ,not in sanctification, not for salvation , but FOR the furthering of the gospel.

Phil 1
12¶But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;

 

[Mem]

Other letters including this one have already established the Christians 'position 'in Christ and how should walk . Romans being a good example . Imo philippians 2 is not about 'self examination ', sanctification, or any other 'self 'focused idea. Its the exact opposite of this . Its about the persecution they are going through. And Just like Paul's example of his salvation ( even in chains) is working out for the furthering of the gospel . They are also to follow the example. Not to be detered by the persecution, but rather to press on ,serving others , helping others, not focusing on self , FOR the furthering of the Gospel . See how many times Paul says "for the gosepl " . In light of them having salvation, work out ( following the example of Paul in prison , and ultimately Jesus ) that salvation ,not in sanctification, not for salvation , but FOR the furthering of the gospel.

Phil 1
12¶But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;

First, you make a claim about an established position, and then follow up with your opinion, which is a position of some and not necessarily 'the' Christians. And Second, I'm not sure you have a clear understanding of my position except that it appears to oppose your opinion. Perhaps your approach to me is in the sense of a perceived hostility, as it is a common default reaction to fear that which one does not understand rather than to respond with any semblance of uncertainty that likely stems from pride, that would go unnoticed except for practice of self-examination. And I only know from general experience so I hope you do not take this observation all too personally.

But if I stood too firmly with what the crowd opinioned were 'the' Christian position, I would be hard pressed for the ability to receive any necessary corrective influence. For example, the claim that Jude's directive toward pulling others out of the fire with fear (and trembling, I presume), even "hating the garment stained with the flesh" is touching on correcting others with humility, ever cognizant of our own vulnerabilities. That is, the central theme in the entire chapter is a counsel in exhibiting the fruit of mercy toward others and "the garment" is referencing that which we are personally wearing rather than presuming that we are able to, personally, spot clean an other's garment, as that would undoubtedly be a display of pride.