Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Matthew 24:14 [/26:13] is what is preached FOLLOWING "our Rapture"

 

[lawrence101]

I agree with you that the "WHEAT" is not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [/US] (which is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, but considered NEITHER in our standing before God "IN Christ"); and that once "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" takes place, THEN [after that] is when the "WHEAT" is dealt with (the harvest which is harvested by means of a "tribulum [harvesting implement]"; whereas the EARLIER "harvest" is harvested by means of "tossing UP INTO THE AIR [and BLOWING away the chaff]"--So, WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest, just as you say... I believe Scripture shows us that the "144,000" are the "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT" harvest, as I've put in past posts... [there's more than ONE "firstfruit" according to Scripture])

Hi Ahwatukee , although i agree to what your saying, im not so sure about what you mean by "believers". Sorta reminds me of the phrase " there are no athiests in hell ". Could it be said that when everyone on earth sees whats happening that ALL will be "believers "then. Anyone who takes the mark of the beast or the number of his name will be lost as is mentioned in the book of revelation, but what of those who were never christians at any point in their lives yet have rejected the mark ?

Also i have a related question ive be thinking about for awhile now; during Christ's 1000 years reign there will be no death and alot of people will be born. Possibly earth's population may be in the tens of billions after a few centuries . My question is are these " new" people automaticely " beleivers" or do they too need a saviour ?

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

After true gospel is preached all over the world, read everything for list of future events after true gospel.
If you are interested in freedom from sin and how do we receive the Holy Spirit? read below.
After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.

1 John 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 New King James Version
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Now I will be preaching about how to receive the Holy Spirit and be 100% going to Heaven.

First, it’s only by the grace of God that he gives you faith in Jesus Christ in order to give up your sins. It’s only by the grace of God that he leads you to pray to him to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or any sinful desires. When you pray to God to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or sinful desires (Romans 6:6-7 and Galatians 5:24), Satan will intervene and extremely tempt you in watching the TV. But if it’s God’s will and if you are one of God’s elects, you will overcome it and God will destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or sinful desires. After God has destroyed all your evil desires of watching TV and if you are one of God’s elects, you receive the joy of the Holy Spirit for about 40 minutes. After the joy wears off, all existence of boredom no longer exists and you no longer burn out (psychology) anymore. That is when you have received the Holy Spirit if you are one of God's elects. Read James 4:4 and 2 Corinthians 6:14-17.

Then it’s by the grace of God that he forgives you of your sins, as you confess and repent of your sins throughout your life which is called sanctification. But you can watch Christian stuff that don’t have sins (Like sermons) because that helps you grow more mature as a Christian spiritually.

Gives thanks to God, that you are free from sin (sin deceives=never satisfied no matter how many times you do it,
gives pain, makes you guilty, go from bad to worse
if you are one of God’s elect, to fight off self-pity is to give thanks to God for everything

The reason why am hated for no reason since I were physically born and never fit in is because am one of God’s elects. (John 15:18-19)

Just so you know Jesus had to carry all of God’s elects sins and endure the punishment for God’s elects sins which is Hellfire spiritually, which is extreme love and mercy.

Back to prophecy, after true gospel is preached every where. Than read Matthew 24, my first post and after posts.

Please what is the 1000 year kingdom to you. The way I see it, its a spiritual kingdom which started when Jesus ascended to Heaven after his resurrection. Why does Jesus need a physical kingdom for 1000 years? I know for sure only God's elects will enter the new heaven and earth. When everyone heard the gospel, so no one is without excuse. 1st coming is when Jesus lived a sinless life and paid the price for all of God's elects. The rapture and 2nd coming is same event.

List of present and future events

-Christ already started his the symbolic 1000 year spiritual kingdom when Christ ascended to Heaven after his resurrection. Also the time where, Satan was thrown down from Heaven to sinful earth to be sealed until true gospel is preached to everyone.

Revelation 20:3 King James Version



3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

-Read Matthew 24 for beginning for the first signs of the great tribulation.

-Matthew 24:12-14


King James Version



12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

-After true gospel is preached to every nation, Satan comes to have all nonelects worship him.

-God's elects get Jailed or killed

-Judgement Day

-Jesus Christ throws all nonelects (all nonelects, Satan and his demons into the lake of fire, which they will stay there forever.

Revelation 21

King James Version

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Those are the main events, we will find more truth when the signs come.

Why did you quote me in this post?

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

Paul wants us to be comforted by the fact that we can be ready for the Rapture and thereby avoid the 7 years of Tribulation. Nothing paradoxical about that.

Well said!

How do you, then, reconcile with the fact that Paul wrote also "the dead in Christ will rise first"?

There is only one Resurrection known to Christianity and in the Bible. Even Jesus said as if there would be only one Resurrection (Luke 14:14), and John's Revelation reveals that is after the beast is taken care of.

 

[oyster67]

How do you, then, reconcile with the fact that Paul wrote also "the dead in Christ will rise first"?

Simple Biblical facts do not have to be reconciled. There is no contradiction or confusion to be had once you have come to see the daylight of Truth.

There is only one Resurrection known to Christianity and in the Bible.

There are several.

 

[Chris1975]

The other five left the true Church as Apostates.

That's not what the parable says. All 10 went out to meet the bridegroom.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

There is no contradiction or confusion to be had once you have come to see the daylight of Truth.

I used to say things in similar manners when I was a baby in my growth. It showed that I knew nothing of what I was saying. So this type of lines rather concerns me that you are trying to cover your ignorance.

There are several.

I give you my side of argument, and if you have any opposing evidence, you can give me.

1. Luke 14:14
   "for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just"
   => Luke used a definite article for "the", meaning there is only one.
   
   
2. John 11:24
   "Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” "
   => While it's not clear how Martha had gotten this idea by then, but it indicates that it had been taught her that the resurrection will be ON THE LAST DAY.
   
   
3. Acts 24:14-15
   "(...) I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
   => Paul refers to a singular resurrection of the Just as a whole and the Unjust as a whole, meaning One resurrection for the Just, and One for the Unjust.
   
   
4. 1 Corinthians 15:52
   "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. "
   => It will be AT THE LAST TRUMPET, and Paul included himself in this resurrection. In other words, you must know that the last trumpet will be before the beast thingy. I'd like to hear your defense.
   
   
5. Isa 26:19-20
   Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
   Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
   => This only mention of a resurrection in the chapter is associated with the wrath of God. Written after a birth pang which Jesus said would come.
   
   
6. Daniel 12:1-2
   1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
   
   2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt."
   => Here the resurrection is associated with the GREAT TRIBULATION spoken of in Matthew 24.

​

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

@ewq1938

The other five left the true Church as Apostates.

That's not what the parable says. All 10 went out to meet the bridegroom.

I think Chris' notion is correct inasmuch as the bad virgins did not LEAVE the church, but were foolish enough to not know God's ways.

That said, the parable actually starts with a resurrection. And Jesus' notion that "one will be taken and the other left" is likely about these 10 virgins. (He actually said "One will be received" as though to marriage.) This also signifies that there is no resurrection nor rapture before tribulation.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

Hebrews 12:7-8
Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

Post-trib people aren't fearmongers as pre-trib followers willingly accuse them of being; THE FEAR OF PERSECUTION is COWERDICE, AND PEOPLE WITH SUCH A FEAR DO NOT DESERVE THE KINGDOM OF GOD, not having understood and embraced the gospel of Christ. Let it be known among you, you ignorant fake grace teachers. Shame on you!

 

[Absolutely]

Anyone who's studied this knows (or should know) that when John Nelson Darby was inventing his dispensationalism he face a dilemma. He believed the church age would end and a new age—or dispensation—would begin in which God would once again turn His attention to the Jews. But what would bring about the end of the church age? The pre-tribulation rapture of course. He didn't get this idea by studying the scripture and having a revelation from the Lord. He was actively looking for something to fit his preconceived notions of dispensationalism.

The pre-trib rapture isn't taught in scripture. It's a pure fabrication. And the fact that so many people have bought into it proves people don't understand God's word.

Mat 25 is a vivid picture of the rapture

 

[Absolutely]

In the "one taken, the other left" passages (Matt24 among them), the "one taken" is "taken away in judgment" (just as in Noah's day), and the one "left" is "left to enter the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial kingdom age in their mortal bodies 'capable of reproducing / bearing children'" (just as in Noah's day).

Here's a post I made on that, some time back:

[quoting from old post]

"as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"... [...]:

--ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of / etc" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth (NOT "our Rapture"), to judge / govern / reign (i.e. the earthly MK age commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth);

--the "one taken" is taken away in judgment (just as in Noah's day);

--the one "left" is left on the earth, to ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children (just as in Noah's day; Only the "saints / righteous / BLESSED" [i.e. "saved" persons] will ENTER the MK age, upon His "RETURN" there--these are folks who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and who will have survived [alive] throughout the entire trib years, as in Dan12:12 and about 7-8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of the same time-slot/circumstances, including in this Matt24 context "BLESSED" and in ITS parallel passage Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "BLESSED"... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347])

--thus, Matt24 / Lk17, where these phrases are found (re: His Second Coming to the earth time-slot), parallel both Gen9:1 and Dan2:35c "and FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth" (i.e. the "taken / left" passages are NOT "Rapture" contexts)


[end quoting old post]

____________


In the Matt24:3 passage (and context: Jesus' response throughout 2 chpts) their Q of Him was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the ANGELS will "REAP")... so this "taken" is done by "angels" (and not to "favorable" ends, when it comes to the unsaved/unbelievers).

In the context of the "as the days of Noah were, [so shall also...]," the part where it says, "and they knew not until," this refers NOT to NOAH (who did know beforehand, having believed God and thus having "prepared the ark"), but rather the "they knew not until" refers to those who were "taken away in [the flood] judgment"... It is not saying they'd never "heard" about it upcoming, but that they disregarded the Word of God via Noah (who was "a preacher of righteousness" 2Pet2:5)... thus shall it also be in that future period (in the years preceding and leading up to His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 [FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age], i.e. the CONTEXT of Matt24 [ALL of which chpt is telling of things FOLLOWING "our Rapture" event])

No it isnt.
Far from it.
It says "BEFORE THE FLOOD"

THEN...."ONE TAKEN/LEFT"

THEN WATCH AND BE READY.

Be ready to be left????

Not only that, but the same ratio of 50% is raptured as in the virgin parable.

( seems to me, if i remember correctly, you also mis apply that dynamic also and the marriage supper)

Read this and explain how those taken to judgement BEFORE THE FLOOD/TRIB are told to watch and be ready. Or how in the world the goodman of the house has half of it removed to judgement. And is told he would not have had it happen if he watched and was ready.???

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Nope

You painted yourself in a corner.

 

[John146]

Mat 25 is a vivid picture of the rapture

There’s not one Christian in Matthew 25. Matthew 25 is concerning the nation of Israel.

This whole thread could be cleared up if people learned how to separate Israel from the body of Christ.

 

[Runningman]

By making this claim, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which is one of the main reasons why the post-tribulation view is in error.

Why is it that you and others make the claim that the Lord is going to gather His church after the tribulation when He returns to the earth to end the age, yet you don't combine it with the scriptures that state that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. You claim one spiritual truth and then trample all over the others.

Your claim infers that you do not truly believe that Christ took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. For since God's wrath has already been satisfied for those who believe, how is it that you still have us on the earth going through God's wrath?



There will be both the wicked and the righteous who will make it alive until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The wicked will all be killed and the righteous, which will be those saints who make alive through the entire tribulation, will enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth.

There will be no unbelievers who will enter into the millennial kingdom. They will all be killed by that double-edged sword of the Lord. And the birds that the angel will have gathered in Rev.19:17-18 will eat their flesh.

Only the survivors of the saints who make it through the entire tribulation period will enter into the millennial kingdom, along with the remnant of Israel. These are those who will repopulate the earth.

I think that's a misunderstanding of scripture on the part of the pre-trib. You are right that the church is not appointed to wrath. That's because God's wrath does not begin until after the tribulation ends and the church has been raptured. It's very simple once you're able to see the truth.

First off, the great tribulation itself is not God's wrath. The persecution the world will face in the great tribulation is Satan's wrath:

Revelation 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

You'll notice the correlation between Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-13:

Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:12-13
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Jesus predicted that immediately after the tribulation the sun will darken (solar eclipse), the moon will darken to a blood color (lunar eclipse) and the "stars will fall from heaven."

The 6th Seal clearly states it is the beginning of the day of God's wrath:

Revelation 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Conclusively, the signs that Jesus said will come after the tribulation appear in the 6th Seal. By the time Jesus returns everyone who will be raptured will be raptured and the lost will be left behind to face God's wrath.

I can understand why you got to where you did, but I think once you actually examine what the scripture say you'll find the truth.

Again, we agree that we aren't appointed to God's wrath. We won't face God's wrath in any way.

 

[John146]

Again, we agree that we aren't appointed to God's wrath. We won't face God's wrath in any way.

Do you agree that the church will go through the tribulation, the time of Jacob’s Trouble? It will be a terrible time like the world has never seen.

 

[Runningman]

Do you agree that the church will go through the tribulation, the time of Jacob’s Trouble? It will be a terrible time like the world has never seen.

Yes I do believe that.

 

[John146]

Yes I do believe that.

My next question would be, which part of the church, the body of Christ? Most of the body of Christ has died and gone on to be with the Lord. Do they return so the whole body goes through the tribulation?

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I think I'm understanding (perhaps incorrectly) that people here believe the "tribulation" has not begun nor will begin until after Jesus comes again from the sky.

But John calls himself a "companion in tribulation."

So, it must have been ongoing at the time John was recording the Book of Revelation.

 

[Rondonmon]

There’s not one Christian in Matthew 25. Matthew 25 is concerning the nation of Israel.

This whole thread could be cleared up if people learned how to separate Israel from the body of Christ.

Not quite, it's about the Jews' future, but we must understand, Jews grow together as a Nation with the wicked tares AND are a part of the Church/Bride of Christ also. So, Jesus gives us both accounts in Matt. 24, he gives us the majority of the Jewish people's overall plight, where 1/3 will repent and thus when Jesus returns they are THE ELECT being saved (the Gentile Remnant Church will all be Martyred for the most part) as Jesus returns in verses 29-31. Then in verses 36-51 we see Jesus gives the Jews who are Christians or Messianic Jews plight, they will be Raptured as in ONE TAKEN and ONE LEFT.

Matthew 25 is a deeper look into the coming Marriage in Heaven. So, Jews will both be saved by Jesus in the Tribulation, and before the tribulation, just like Gentiles.

 

[Runningman]

My next question would be, which part of the church, the body of Christ? Most of the body of Christ has died and gone on to be with the Lord. Do they return so the whole body goes through the tribulation?

As far as I can tell, the portion of the body of Christ who will be here for the GT are church members alive on Earth. Deceased people in the body of Christ are with the Lord and will not be here for it. When Jesus returns after the GT He will bring the deceased saints with Him to receive a resurrected body. After they receive a resurrected body, we will all together be lifted up to meet Jesus in the air.

That's what I gather from 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[John146]

So, Jesus gives us both accounts in Matt. 24,

The body of Christ is a mystery at this point and is not mentioned in Matthew 24.