Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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I agree with you that the "WHEAT" is not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [/US] (which is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, but considered NEITHER in our standing before God "IN Christ"); and that once "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" takes place, THEN [after that] is when the "WHEAT" is dealt with (the harvest which is harvested by means of a "tribulum [harvesting implement]"; whereas the EARLIER "harvest" is harvested by means of "tossing UP INTO THE AIR [and BLOWING away the chaff]"--So, WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest, just as you say... I believe Scripture shows us that the "144,000" are the "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT" harvest, as I've put in past posts... [there's more than ONE "firstfruit" according to Scripture])
Hi Ahwatukee , although i agree to what your saying, im not so sure about what you mean by "believers". Sorta reminds me of the phrase " there are no athiests in hell ". Could it be said that when everyone on earth sees whats happening that ALL will be "believers "then. Anyone who takes the mark of the beast or the number of his name will be lost as is mentioned in the book of revelation, but what of those who were never christians at any point in their lives yet have rejected the mark ?
Also i have a related question ive be thinking about for awhile now; during Christ's 1000 years reign there will be no death and alot of people will be born. Possibly earth's population may be in the tens of billions after a few centuries . My question is are these " new" people automaticely " beleivers" or do they too need a saviour ?
How do you, then, reconcile with the fact that Paul wrote also "the dead in Christ will rise first"?
There is only one Resurrection known to Christianity and in the Bible. Even Jesus said as if there would be only one Resurrection (Luke 14:14), and John's Revelation reveals that is after the beast is taken care of.
Simple Biblical facts do not have to be reconciled. There is no contradiction or confusion to be had once you have come to see the daylight of Truth.
There are several.
That's not what the parable says. All 10 went out to meet the bridegroom.
I used to say things in similar manners when I was a baby in my growth. It showed that I knew nothing of what I was saying. So this type of lines rather concerns me that you are trying to cover your ignorance.
I give you my side of argument, and if you have any opposing evidence, you can give me.
- Luke 14:14
"for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just"
=> Luke used a definite article for "the", meaning there is only one.
- John 11:24
"Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” "
=> While it's not clear how Martha had gotten this idea by then, but it indicates that it had been taught her that the resurrection will be ON THE LAST DAY.
- Acts 24:14-15
"(...) I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
=> Paul refers to a singular resurrection of the Just as a whole and the Unjust as a whole, meaning One resurrection for the Just, and One for the Unjust.
- 1 Corinthians 15:52
"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. "
=> It will be AT THE LAST TRUMPET, and Paul included himself in this resurrection. In other words, you must know that the last trumpet will be before the beast thingy. I'd like to hear your defense.
- Isa 26:19-20
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
=> This only mention of a resurrection in the chapter is associated with the wrath of God. Written after a birth pang which Jesus said would come.
- Daniel 12:1-2
1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt."
=> Here the resurrection is associated with the GREAT TRIBULATION spoken of in Matthew 24.
@ewq1938
That said, the parable actually starts with a resurrection. And Jesus' notion that "one will be taken and the other left" is likely about these 10 virgins. (He actually said "One will be received" as though to marriage.) This also signifies that there is no resurrection nor rapture before tribulation.
I think Chris' notion is correct inasmuch as the bad virgins did not LEAVE the church, but were foolish enough to not know God's ways.
That said, the parable actually starts with a resurrection. And Jesus' notion that "one will be taken and the other left" is likely about these 10 virgins. (He actually said "One will be received" as though to marriage.) This also signifies that there is no resurrection nor rapture before tribulation.
Hebrews 12:7-8
Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
Post-trib people aren't fearmongers as pre-trib followers willingly accuse them of being; THE FEAR OF PERSECUTION is COWERDICE, AND PEOPLE WITH SUCH A FEAR DO NOT DESERVE THE KINGDOM OF GOD, not having understood and embraced the gospel of Christ. Let it be known among you, you ignorant fake grace teachers. Shame on you!
Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
Post-trib people aren't fearmongers as pre-trib followers willingly accuse them of being; THE FEAR OF PERSECUTION is COWERDICE, AND PEOPLE WITH SUCH A FEAR DO NOT DESERVE THE KINGDOM OF GOD, not having understood and embraced the gospel of Christ. Let it be known among you, you ignorant fake grace teachers. Shame on you!
No it isnt.
Far from it.
It says "BEFORE THE FLOOD"
THEN...."ONE TAKEN/LEFT"
THEN WATCH AND BE READY.
Be ready to be left????
Not only that, but the same ratio of 50% is raptured as in the virgin parable.
( seems to me, if i remember correctly, you also mis apply that dynamic also and the marriage supper)
Read this and explain how those taken to judgement BEFORE THE FLOOD/TRIB are told to watch and be ready. Or how in the world the goodman of the house has half of it removed to judgement. And is told he would not have had it happen if he watched and was ready.???
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Nope
You painted yourself in a corner.
There’s not one Christian in Matthew 25. Matthew 25 is concerning the nation of Israel.
This whole thread could be cleared up if people learned how to separate Israel from the body of Christ.
I think that's a misunderstanding of scripture on the part of the pre-trib. You are right that the church is not appointed to wrath. That's because God's wrath does not begin until after the tribulation ends and the church has been raptured. It's very simple once you're able to see the truth.
First off, the great tribulation itself is not God's wrath. The persecution the world will face in the great tribulation is Satan's wrath:
Revelation 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
You'll notice the correlation between Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-13:
Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 6:12-13
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Jesus predicted that immediately after the tribulation the sun will darken (solar eclipse), the moon will darken to a blood color (lunar eclipse) and the "stars will fall from heaven."
The 6th Seal clearly states it is the beginning of the day of God's wrath:
Revelation 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Conclusively, the signs that Jesus said will come after the tribulation appear in the 6th Seal. By the time Jesus returns everyone who will be raptured will be raptured and the lost will be left behind to face God's wrath.
I can understand why you got to where you did, but I think once you actually examine what the scripture say you'll find the truth.
Again, we agree that we aren't appointed to God's wrath. We won't face God's wrath in any way.
Do you agree that the church will go through the tribulation, the time of Jacob’s Trouble? It will be a terrible time like the world has never seen.
My next question would be, which part of the church, the body of Christ? Most of the body of Christ has died and gone on to be with the Lord. Do they return so the whole body goes through the tribulation?
I think I'm understanding (perhaps incorrectly) that people here believe the "tribulation" has not begun nor will begin until after Jesus comes again from the sky.
But John calls himself a "companion in tribulation."
So, it must have been ongoing at the time John was recording the Book of Revelation.
But John calls himself a "companion in tribulation."
So, it must have been ongoing at the time John was recording the Book of Revelation.
Not quite, it's about the Jews' future, but we must understand, Jews grow together as a Nation with the wicked tares AND are a part of the Church/Bride of Christ also. So, Jesus gives us both accounts in Matt. 24, he gives us the majority of the Jewish people's overall plight, where 1/3 will repent and thus when Jesus returns they are THE ELECT being saved (the Gentile Remnant Church will all be Martyred for the most part) as Jesus returns in verses 29-31. Then in verses 36-51 we see Jesus gives the Jews who are Christians or Messianic Jews plight, they will be Raptured as in ONE TAKEN and ONE LEFT.
Matthew 25 is a deeper look into the coming Marriage in Heaven. So, Jews will both be saved by Jesus in the Tribulation, and before the tribulation, just like Gentiles.
As far as I can tell, the portion of the body of Christ who will be here for the GT are church members alive on Earth. Deceased people in the body of Christ are with the Lord and will not be here for it. When Jesus returns after the GT He will bring the deceased saints with Him to receive a resurrected body. After they receive a resurrected body, we will all together be lifted up to meet Jesus in the air.
That's what I gather from 1 Thessalonians 4.
The body of Christ is a mystery at this point and is not mentioned in Matthew 24.