Under the old covenant, God spoke to us with the command to cut flesh. The command to be circumcised that was part of the command to cut flesh is obsolete, we have the Holy Spirit to tell us to be circumcised. As an example of what is the same and what is obsolete in the two covenants. God did not change God or make God's ways obsolete when God changed the way He spoke to us.
To what extent does the OT apply to Christians?
- Thread starter Shlomit
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I like this!! You are pointing out that there is only one God, an eternal God who is always the same. There is only one true law, it is called the spirit of the law in scripture, and as we read "the law of Moses" or interpret scripture to say there is only one purpose for law, or any of the other interpretations, we need to (as this post is bringing out) keep in mind that the true law is the spirit of the law.
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Having a new covenant isn't necessarily an indication that "God changed his mind". But we should respect the fact that we are in a new covenant. The new covenant covers all of the requirements of the law in Christ. There is no need to look at previous covenant rules for moral guidance (though it is permitted in many cases if we so choose). But certainly we should avoid fulfilling the commandments of an obsolete covenant at the expense of fulfilling a commandment of the new covenant.
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Nice try. We also need to keep in mind...
Habakkuk 2:4 (KJV) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Romans 1:17 (KJV) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 3:11 (KJV) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Hebrews 10:38 (KJV) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Romans 4:13 (NASB) For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:16 (NASB) For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Galatians 2:16 (NASB) nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Galatians 3:12 (NASB) However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
Philippians 3:9 (NASB) and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
Habakkuk 2:4 (KJV) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Romans 1:17 (KJV) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 3:11 (KJV) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Hebrews 10:38 (KJV) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Romans 4:13 (NASB) For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:16 (NASB) For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Galatians 2:16 (NASB) nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Galatians 3:12 (NASB) However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
Philippians 3:9 (NASB) and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
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Jesus did not rescind any of the laws... He FULFILLED ALL OF THEM FOR US....
We now have Spiritual Laws written on our hearts...the Holy Spirit empowers believers to fulfill the Spiritual Laws which are rooted and grounded in loving God and loving others as we love ourselves.
Human reasoning and the flesh want to earn salvation or try to manipulate God with “good works” of obeying the written law .... “Look God! I’ve done all these good works! You owe me now! Give me what I prayed for! You’re obligated now to not let my loved one die!!!!
But, there’s NO LOVE FOR GOD in any of that and God finds those works repulsive.
To understand God is to understand Love....The written law shows us how holy God is and how His ways are so high...we can’t do it....
Thanks be to God for Yeshua/Jesus Christ our Savior, Lord, King and Beloved, amen.
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We now have Spiritual Laws written on our hearts...the Holy Spirit empowers believers to fulfill the Spiritual Laws which are rooted and grounded in loving God and loving others as we love ourselves.
Human reasoning and the flesh want to earn salvation or try to manipulate God with “good works” of obeying the written law .... “Look God! I’ve done all these good works! You owe me now! Give me what I prayed for! You’re obligated now to not let my loved one die!!!!
But, there’s NO LOVE FOR GOD in any of that and God finds those works repulsive.
To understand God is to understand Love....The written law shows us how holy God is and how His ways are so high...we can’t do it....
Thanks be to God for Yeshua/Jesus Christ our Savior, Lord, King and Beloved, amen.
.
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If you will use your concordance to see if the Lord is pleased by our works you will be surprised to find out how pleased our Holy God is when we put the Lord into our hearts and live as a reflection of Him, even if we can never be as Gods with our works being perfect.
If there are people who are working in order to earn salvation, that is their problem and we need not be concerned with it or be afraid of our own works for love of the Lord because of what they do.
If there are people who are working in order to earn salvation, that is their problem and we need not be concerned with it or be afraid of our own works for love of the Lord because of what they do.
It was a holy righteous God who gave the old covenant and a holy righteous God who improved on that covenant. We are not to disregard what God has done. We are to honor how God fulfilled it all.
In the old covenant we are to be circumcised, and that is an eternal command. It is improved with the new covenant and the circumcision is in our heart not our flesh, but we are to honor the spiritual circumcision. It is the same with all of it--it was commanded to control what we feed ourselves to be sure it came from clean sources and not garbage. We are to honor that command, but know what goes in our stomachs simply is eliminated, what goes in our minds never is.
In the old covenant we are to be circumcised, and that is an eternal command. It is improved with the new covenant and the circumcision is in our heart not our flesh, but we are to honor the spiritual circumcision. It is the same with all of it--it was commanded to control what we feed ourselves to be sure it came from clean sources and not garbage. We are to honor that command, but know what goes in our stomachs simply is eliminated, what goes in our minds never is.
Sin enters the world by one (Adam) and reconciles with God by one (Jesus),The sin is death,It's not about whether people are guilty or not,If people will die, we are all sin。Only believing in Jesus is the key to life，it's not Maintain their salvation by works，but by faith. Only through the door to come in, who do not come in through the door are thieves.We die with Jesus on cross and live with him again.
Maintaining salvation can’t be done by the human being because of the weakness of the flesh they would be brought Into captivity to the law of sin.Once the person has repented In truth and GOD saves them,sin Is no longer the Issue,a person will renew their mind though to match the new creation they have become.Thank you JESUS for grace.
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The application of the law and prophets to Christians are there witness of Jesus Christ
within the writings of the ot there is a witness from God that Christ would come that’s the value the ot holds for us it helps us understand the gospel and why we need to believe the gospel , who Christ is , where he came from being born of a virgin , why his death and suffering helps us , why it was required he died , why we need baptism ect
the law is useful and the prophets are useful to us all for learning , but they aren’t the authority over our soul is the thing Christ and his gospel is
because we aren’t under the law of Moses we can see it unlike they did it blinded them because it was thier law , Christ hadn’t yet come in the flesh.
so to the ot folks this was the effect
“And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament;
which veil is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.”
2 Corinthians 3:13-15 KJV
if for thousands of years you thought you were the only chosen people of God on earth , and he had given you a law to follow every joy and detail but you could never do it right , ot would be hard to see a new thing the same God was doing and had foretold in your law because you are looking at it like a law of sin and death. “If I make a mistake I’m dead “ Our God has spoken he will never do anything new “
this became thier limited understanding of God “ do not kill , anyone who kills must surely be killed by all the rest of you “ .....” do not commit adultery , anyone who does commit adultery must be killed by all the others be holy as I am holy”
they were incapable of seeing anything else being stuck trying to accomplish thier law of perfecting flesh without spirit and never heard the witness of Jesus Christ that was always promising a new thing a new word of life to save them new blood , a new way on the barren world the desolate wilderness
Salvation for sinners not death
The law and prophets are useful in many ways To us because we come into it understanding it’s not our law , Christ is
this allows us to see him in it and learn and not be blinded by the stone sayings for sinners not for us but for these
“And the Lord appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle. And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?”
Deuteronomy 31:15-
within the writings of the ot there is a witness from God that Christ would come that’s the value the ot holds for us it helps us understand the gospel and why we need to believe the gospel , who Christ is , where he came from being born of a virgin , why his death and suffering helps us , why it was required he died , why we need baptism ect
the law is useful and the prophets are useful to us all for learning , but they aren’t the authority over our soul is the thing Christ and his gospel is
because we aren’t under the law of Moses we can see it unlike they did it blinded them because it was thier law , Christ hadn’t yet come in the flesh.
so to the ot folks this was the effect
“And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament;
which veil is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.”
2 Corinthians 3:13-15 KJV
if for thousands of years you thought you were the only chosen people of God on earth , and he had given you a law to follow every joy and detail but you could never do it right , ot would be hard to see a new thing the same God was doing and had foretold in your law because you are looking at it like a law of sin and death. “If I make a mistake I’m dead “ Our God has spoken he will never do anything new “
this became thier limited understanding of God “ do not kill , anyone who kills must surely be killed by all the rest of you “ .....” do not commit adultery , anyone who does commit adultery must be killed by all the others be holy as I am holy”
they were incapable of seeing anything else being stuck trying to accomplish thier law of perfecting flesh without spirit and never heard the witness of Jesus Christ that was always promising a new thing a new word of life to save them new blood , a new way on the barren world the desolate wilderness
Salvation for sinners not death
The law and prophets are useful in many ways To us because we come into it understanding it’s not our law , Christ is
this allows us to see him in it and learn and not be blinded by the stone sayings for sinners not for us but for these
“And the Lord appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle. And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?”
Deuteronomy 31:15-
The Bible has two halves. Maybe not equal in pages perhaps, but in terms of importance, definitely. The Old Testament (Old Covenant) and The New Testament (The New Covenant). The Bible is not complete without the New Testament. The questions that you ask are answered in the New Testament.
1. Regarding Dietary laws:
Yes, there are foods that are considered clean and foods that are considered unclean in the Old Testament. If you read the books of Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, laws are given to be observed regarding food. There are a lot of dietary laws. Some examples:
A. You cannot eat the meat of an animal that dies naturally on it's own. Such meat is not to be consumed by God's people.
B. You cannot eat the meat of animals which have no divided hooves, eg Camel, etc and you cannot eat the meat of a pig because it does not chew the cud even though it has divided hooves. Certain animals are mentioned not to be eaten like bats, lizards, winged insects, while insects like the locusts and grasshoppers can be eaten. You will have to go through what is given in the Torah on what animals may and may not be eaten.
C. There is also food that is meant to be eaten by the Levites alone. (Priestly class appointed by God). That food is considered Holy and must be eaten ritualistically as per the instructions given by God.
D. It's very important that the blood of the animals must not be eaten. The blood of the animal must be allowed to flow into the ground because blood is life.
E. You are not to cook a lamb in it's mother's milk.
These are just a some of the many laws regarding how to eat found in the Bible.
Now in the New Testament in the book of ACTS, Chapter 10, Peter sees a vision three times where there are unclean animals and God tells him in the dream to get up, kill and eat those animals. While the real meaning of this dream was that God intended the Gospel to be preached to all in the world whether they be Jew or Gentile, a lot of Christians take it that it meant that God deemed all foods worthy to be eaten. While some would say that Peter himself didn't interpret this vision that way and he in fact didn't.
I personally like food. Good food is to be eaten and enjoyed. I know there are gonna be people who are going to say that eating swine is forbidden in the Bible. Pork is one of my favourite foods.
That being said, Jesus has something to say about it. “Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.” Matthew Chapter: 15:11. While Jesus spoke of the disciples eating bread with unclean hands, I look that this means that He meant that what we consume as food doesn't make us unclean. But what we speak through our mouth. Period.
So, I think food should be enjoyed. That's why God made animals. For us to eat them. However, eating blood, eating an animal that dies naturally or eating an animal that is killed by predators are not alright and I would adhere to those laws as they are given in the Bible. So, those are things to observe. This is the way as I understand it. I'm an imperfect man redeemed by the grace and mercy of my Lord Jesus so I can live with this. (Eating pork).
But if it is that important to you, I suggest you do your own research and come up with your own conclusions. Or in other words, don't stop until you find the truth about it for yourself.
2. Regarding circumcision and observing the Sabbath:
If you read Matthew Chapter 12, you will find that Jesus defends the action of His disciples plucking corn on the Sabbath to eat. He would say that, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." Adding ,"The Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath. Meaning that the Sabbath day was meant for the people to rest and not the other way around. Jesus would go on to heal on the Sabbath. You have to read the passage.
circumcision: There are many verses given in the Bible that pretty much speaks in the same tone as in the case of observing the Sabbath. God prefers us that we circumcise our hearts instead of the foreskin of the male genitals as given under the Pentateuchal books from the Bible. Deuteronomy 10:16.
In the New Testament, there is a disagreement between Jesus' apostles regarding some for and some against Circumcision. Paul clears this doubt in the letter to the Galatians saying, "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." - Galatians Chapter 5:2
3. Regarding homosexuality: What the Bible says is that God hates and abhors homosexuality. Both The Old and New Testaments are against homosexuality as it destroys God's plan for marriage and family. Of course, if a person is attracted to the same sex, that by itself is not sinful as long as you don't act on it. It doesn't just stop there. You have to work you way to pray to God and ask what God wills for you in your life. Because it is not God's will that you are attracted to a person of the same sex or gender. There may be such urges among young adults because of the exposure to media and LGBT movements or even naturally. But, as a Christian, God has called you to live a life dedicated to Him completely. You are called to holiness.
Paul talks about this in the letter to the Romans, chapter 1. People who are homosexual carry the wrath of God. Also 1 Corinthians Chapter 6 talks about effeminacy.
Homosexuality will destroy the family as God intended a family to be. Anyone who harbours homosexual feelings must fight it having faith that God can and will find a way out of it for them. God intended man and woman to copulate in order to bring new life to earth. A homosexual person lives outside the redeeming grace of our Lord Jesus and will go to hell. The same as adulterers and murderers and diviners. That's what the Bible tells us. Both the Old and New Testaments say this. So, prayer and seeking Christian guidance to break the shackles of Homosexuality is something a homosexual person must consider if He or She cares about saving his or her soul respectively from eternal damnation.
But should we as Christians hate Homosexuals? I think not. If you really had Christ in you, you would treat everyone with respect and would accept that everyone has the basic right to life and to feel secure. We as followers of Christ are called to bear the burden of those who sin against God and pray for them and try to lead them by example. The best we can do so show them the right way as God would want for them. Our God respects free will. He is not going to force anyone into redemption. Redemption is a choice. Just as Jesus chose to die for us on the cross knowing that we may never stop sinning and may not believe in Him and follow Him into heaven. Jesus chose to die for us still and He has conquered death. He waits for us to come to Him with our problems. It may be impossible for man to break the chains of homosexuality. What's impossible for man is very possible for God to do.
1. Regarding Dietary laws:
Yes, there are foods that are considered clean and foods that are considered unclean in the Old Testament. If you read the books of Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, laws are given to be observed regarding food. There are a lot of dietary laws. Some examples:
A. You cannot eat the meat of an animal that dies naturally on it's own. Such meat is not to be consumed by God's people.
B. You cannot eat the meat of animals which have no divided hooves, eg Camel, etc and you cannot eat the meat of a pig because it does not chew the cud even though it has divided hooves. Certain animals are mentioned not to be eaten like bats, lizards, winged insects, while insects like the locusts and grasshoppers can be eaten. You will have to go through what is given in the Torah on what animals may and may not be eaten.
C. There is also food that is meant to be eaten by the Levites alone. (Priestly class appointed by God). That food is considered Holy and must be eaten ritualistically as per the instructions given by God.
D. It's very important that the blood of the animals must not be eaten. The blood of the animal must be allowed to flow into the ground because blood is life.
E. You are not to cook a lamb in it's mother's milk.
These are just a some of the many laws regarding how to eat found in the Bible.
Now in the New Testament in the book of ACTS, Chapter 10, Peter sees a vision three times where there are unclean animals and God tells him in the dream to get up, kill and eat those animals. While the real meaning of this dream was that God intended the Gospel to be preached to all in the world whether they be Jew or Gentile, a lot of Christians take it that it meant that God deemed all foods worthy to be eaten. While some would say that Peter himself didn't interpret this vision that way and he in fact didn't.
I personally like food. Good food is to be eaten and enjoyed. I know there are gonna be people who are going to say that eating swine is forbidden in the Bible. Pork is one of my favourite foods.
That being said, Jesus has something to say about it. “Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.” Matthew Chapter: 15:11. While Jesus spoke of the disciples eating bread with unclean hands, I look that this means that He meant that what we consume as food doesn't make us unclean. But what we speak through our mouth. Period.
So, I think food should be enjoyed. That's why God made animals. For us to eat them. However, eating blood, eating an animal that dies naturally or eating an animal that is killed by predators are not alright and I would adhere to those laws as they are given in the Bible. So, those are things to observe. This is the way as I understand it. I'm an imperfect man redeemed by the grace and mercy of my Lord Jesus so I can live with this. (Eating pork).
But if it is that important to you, I suggest you do your own research and come up with your own conclusions. Or in other words, don't stop until you find the truth about it for yourself.
2. Regarding circumcision and observing the Sabbath:
If you read Matthew Chapter 12, you will find that Jesus defends the action of His disciples plucking corn on the Sabbath to eat. He would say that, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." Adding ,"The Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath. Meaning that the Sabbath day was meant for the people to rest and not the other way around. Jesus would go on to heal on the Sabbath. You have to read the passage.
circumcision: There are many verses given in the Bible that pretty much speaks in the same tone as in the case of observing the Sabbath. God prefers us that we circumcise our hearts instead of the foreskin of the male genitals as given under the Pentateuchal books from the Bible. Deuteronomy 10:16.
In the New Testament, there is a disagreement between Jesus' apostles regarding some for and some against Circumcision. Paul clears this doubt in the letter to the Galatians saying, "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." - Galatians Chapter 5:2
3. Regarding homosexuality: What the Bible says is that God hates and abhors homosexuality. Both The Old and New Testaments are against homosexuality as it destroys God's plan for marriage and family. Of course, if a person is attracted to the same sex, that by itself is not sinful as long as you don't act on it. It doesn't just stop there. You have to work you way to pray to God and ask what God wills for you in your life. Because it is not God's will that you are attracted to a person of the same sex or gender. There may be such urges among young adults because of the exposure to media and LGBT movements or even naturally. But, as a Christian, God has called you to live a life dedicated to Him completely. You are called to holiness.
Paul talks about this in the letter to the Romans, chapter 1. People who are homosexual carry the wrath of God. Also 1 Corinthians Chapter 6 talks about effeminacy.
Homosexuality will destroy the family as God intended a family to be. Anyone who harbours homosexual feelings must fight it having faith that God can and will find a way out of it for them. God intended man and woman to copulate in order to bring new life to earth. A homosexual person lives outside the redeeming grace of our Lord Jesus and will go to hell. The same as adulterers and murderers and diviners. That's what the Bible tells us. Both the Old and New Testaments say this. So, prayer and seeking Christian guidance to break the shackles of Homosexuality is something a homosexual person must consider if He or She cares about saving his or her soul respectively from eternal damnation.
But should we as Christians hate Homosexuals? I think not. If you really had Christ in you, you would treat everyone with respect and would accept that everyone has the basic right to life and to feel secure. We as followers of Christ are called to bear the burden of those who sin against God and pray for them and try to lead them by example. The best we can do so show them the right way as God would want for them. Our God respects free will. He is not going to force anyone into redemption. Redemption is a choice. Just as Jesus chose to die for us on the cross knowing that we may never stop sinning and may not believe in Him and follow Him into heaven. Jesus chose to die for us still and He has conquered death. He waits for us to come to Him with our problems. It may be impossible for man to break the chains of homosexuality. What's impossible for man is very possible for God to do.
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