....maybe also list the many times Jesus' actions were not "christian."For those new to the thread; this is basically 174 pages of Christians not being very Christian...That way you don't have to read the whole thing
Or the prophets behavior.
50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Or the prophets behavior.
No, that is a reference that HE will come again.
Or do you think HE as already come again ? ? ?
Matthew 24:11-12 (NKJV)
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
Matthew 24:23-31 (NKJV)
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
{HE comes quickly in the Clouds for the Rapture, which means we will be CAUGHT UP.}
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {This is HIS Second Coming, and HE comes slowly, given all the armies of Earth to Gather in the Valley of Megiddo and Jerusalem, for Christ to War on the Nations.}
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect {HIS Elect is ISRAEL who are Saved during the Great Tribulation.} from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1) How do you know that it will be "a hundred times worse" than now?
And, 'now' has been getting 'worse' for a very long time.
Remember that - it is very highly significant to this issue.
The truth is - you don't know - you only imagine and assume that it will be orders-of-magnitude worse than anything referenced in history.
It is emotion-and-imagination based assumptions like this that can totally throw your eschatology into error.
How does your idea of "a hundred times worse" compare to what happened in the Dark Ages?
2) The Bible tells us when the Great Tribulation starts - and, when it ends - relative to other events.
With certainty - the start of it is placed circa 70 A.D. - and, the end of it is placed (at this point in time) in the future.
With certainty - it is a long period of time and not a short one.
The prophecy contained in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation has been "unfolding" over the past ~2000 years - it does not represent a future 7-year period of time.
It is past, present, and future.
And, the worst is yet to come.
Remember that - it is very highly significant to this issue.
3) I understand all-too-well what the Great Tribulation is - as defined and described in the Bible.
I also understand why most other people don't understand it properly.
It is because they absolutely refuse to let go of extreme erroneous misinterpretation of certain passages in the Bible.
Thank you for these difficult questions.
I am reflecting greatly on these dark matters.
The uprooting horn turns against God and attacks the Church.
He has a period of domination, before he is quelled
Daniel 7: 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
We see these events described previously (with less detail)
Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
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44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Paul's words below
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Daniel 7:
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Revelation 13:
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Both of these verses are largely referring to the Dark Ages.
Not at all. This is about the Great Tribulation which has not even started yet. It will be the last 42 months of this age and then Christ will return.
It has started; however, it has not ended yet.
The 42 months equates to a span of 1260 years - from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. - when [what is now called the Roman Catholic Church] "ruled the earth" - and "had its way with the saints" - and, is only a part of the GT.
Nowhere in scripture does it indicate a specific length of the GT in its entirety.
It has not started and we know that because neither of Revelation 13's two beasts are yet revealed.
Also, the 42 months are exactly that, not 1260 years but 1260 days but written in months as is common for times regarding the enemy.
Gary is right. The so-called great tribulation is really a period which has been misappropriated by
eschatology buffs, scholars, call them what you will, and bandied about with such repetition
and insouciance, that the actual simple and staightforward meaning and context have been
buried by the accumulations of stratified discourse.
Thus normally when we (people like Gary or myself) point it out, it goes straight over people's heads,
as the idea is now so alien to conventional thinking. It simply doesn't register because it can't register.
I am pleased that you have at least understood and registered what Gary has said. Bravo Ewq
eschatology buffs, scholars, call them what you will, and bandied about with such repetition
and insouciance, that the actual simple and staightforward meaning and context have been
buried by the accumulations of stratified discourse.
Thus normally when we (people like Gary or myself) point it out, it goes straight over people's heads,
as the idea is now so alien to conventional thinking. It simply doesn't register because it can't register.
I am pleased that you have at least understood and registered what Gary has said. Bravo Ewq
I just haven't had the chance to address the post you responded, to my question... but I have addressed it in past posts (perhaps in other threads)... a few things come readily to mind, ATM...
1) the SEQUENCE issues in the Olivet Discourse (I've covered); and
2) when Jesus said in Matt24:15 about "the abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, there are only TWO places in Daniel speaking of it in the "singular," and the one in the early half of Dan11 refers to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, so that leaves the one in Daniel 12:11, "the abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] SET UP" (around the time, per Jesus' words, that: "THEN shall be GREAT tribulation...") and Dan12 provides the day-amounts and so forth, in that chpt (including how Daniel is told he will "stand in thy lot at the END of the days [the end of the days referred to in THAT CONTEXT/chapter: vv.6-7,1, etc...]"); and
3) you are assuming the definition of the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" to be fairly equated with what we commonly call "the Church age" (basically speaking of the time of Gentiles' salvation), but this phrase does not speak of that, but rather to the events associated with Neb's "dream / statue / image" with Neb as "head of gold" etc... (starting back in 606/5bc... rather than starting in the first century)--this phrase being completely distinct from the phrase "until the FULNESS of the Gentiles BE COME IN [G1525]";
4) that the "beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of are equivalent to the "SEALS" of Rev6, and those being a part of the "future" aspects of Rev (per 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1-- "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--not things which would transpire over the course of some near 2000 yrs... so that in Matt24, Jesus STARTS OUT covering those points/events [BoBPs / i.e. SEALS] in the chronology [continuing on chronologically in that chpt, pretty much], whereas in Luke 21:12,12-24a He is covering what comes "BEFORE ALL the beginning of birth PANGS," meaning the 70ad events... that the events of 70ad take place chronologically / sequentially PRIOR TO that which He starts out with in Matt24 [the SEQUENCE issues in the Olivet Discourse I mentioned at top])...
--more... but I gotta sleep. lol
Well really all eschatology, all understanding of prophecy as it applies since Christ, is rooted in Daniel,
which is what Jesus effectively told us in his Olivet Briefing. So understanding what Jesus meant here is critical, there is no way round it.
Topos hagios - the Holy Place - is not so difficult. it means any place designated Holy by God.
Israel - the Holy Land - and Jerusalem - the Holy City - for instance.
I am surprised to be mentioned but I didn't really do anything special. Gary is wrong. The errors are obvious and simplistic. I can't really take credit for taking the clearly correct stance, but thanks anyways.
2) when Jesus said in Matt24:15 about "the abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, there are only TWO places in Daniel speaking of it in the "singular," and the one in the early half of Dan11 refers to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, so that leaves the one in Daniel 12:11, "the abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] SET UP" (around the time, per Jesus' words, that: "THEN shall be GREAT tribulation...") and Dan12 provides the day-amounts and so forth, in that chpt (including how Daniel is told he will "stand in thy lot at the END of the days [the end of the days referred to in THAT CONTEXT/chapter: vv.6-7,1, etc...]"); and
The NIV words it helpfully
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’
How do we understand desolation.....Jerusalem and the temple destroyed, no sacrifice or worship, etc?
The abomination. What is it? Antiochus engaged in Zeus worship in the Temple. He put a bust of Zeus in the qadosh qadosh.......
so would it be fair to say that the Head of the pantheon of Greek Gods, Zeus, aka Jupiter, might fairly qualify as the Abomination,
or more specifically Zeus Worship in the Holy Place?
The NIV words it helpfully
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’
How do we understand desolation.....Jerusalem and the temple destroyed, no sacrifice or worship, etc?
The abomination. What is it? Antiochus engaged in Zeus worship in the Temple. He put a bust of Zeus in the qadosh qadosh.......
so would it be fair to say that the Head of the pantheon of Greek Gods, Zeus, aka Jupiter, might fairly qualify as the Abomination,
or more specifically Zeus Worship in the Holy Place?
From Robertson's Word Pictures
The abomination of desolation (το βδελυγμα της ερεμωσεως).
An allusion to Daniel 9:27; Daniel 11:31; Daniel 12:11. Antiochus Epiphanes erected an altar to Zeus on the altar of Jehovah (1Macc. 1:54,59; 6:7; 2Macc. 6:1-5). The desolation in the mind of Jesus is apparently the Roman army (Luke 21:20) in the temple, an application of the words of Daniel to this dread event. The verb βδελυσσομα is to feel nausea because of stench, to abhor, to detest. Idolatry was a stench to God (Luke 16:15; Revelation 17:4). Josephus tells us that the Romans burned the temple and offered sacrifices to their ensigns placed by the eastern gate when they proclaimed Titus as Emperor.
FreeGrace2 said:
OK, thanks. Now, could you explain what the "uprooting horn" does and the verses? There are 2 beasts, per Rev 13.
Could you point me to the Daniel text re: rate of little horn, and Paul's text?
Again, thanks.
You indicated that the "uprooting horn" isn't the beast, who will be the global ruler during the Trib. Are you able to identify when this uprooting horn will occur in history?
Thanks.
OK, thanks. Now, could you explain what the "uprooting horn" does and the verses? There are 2 beasts, per Rev 13.
Could you point me to the Daniel text re: rate of little horn, and Paul's text?
Again, thanks.
Being familiar with these passages, it seems most view them as describing what most people call the antichrist, but the Bible calls the "beast" #1, from Rev 13:1.
You indicated that the "uprooting horn" isn't the beast, who will be the global ruler during the Trib. Are you able to identify when this uprooting horn will occur in history?
Thanks.
Just for chuckles, I went back to see the article by Walvoord about the "50 reasons' for a pretrib rapture in the OP. I didn't get very far, because near the beginning of his article, I found this:
"While the words rapture and translation are not quite identical, they refer to the same event. By the term rapture, reference is made to the fact that the church is “caught up” from the earth and taken to heaven."
First, he prefers the word "translation" over "rapture", but then goes striaght to "caught up". Unbelievable! Those words are directly connected to the Second Advent!
Then he makes a provably false statement: "the church is "caught-up" form the earth AND TAKEN TO HEAVEN".
So, where is that FACT in Scripture? That's what I've been razor focused on in this thread. What verse actually teaches that resurrected and raptured believers are taken to heaven?
Walvoord simply makes an assumption, and without ANY verse to back up his claim. Though he is a respected scholar and theologian, it is just sad that he makes these kinds of errors.
No wonder evangelicals are so confused, and about a whole lot of things.
This thread has gotten rather off track with the recent discussions about things other than the rapture. It seems obvious that most of these things CANNOT be understood or determined UNTIL they occur. Those alive during that time will then slap their foreheads and cry "Duh"!
In 175 pages, no one has shown any verse that teaches that resurrected and raptured believers are taken to heaven. So even though the great theologian Walvoord claims they will be, no one can prove it from Scripture.
Just sayin'
"While the words rapture and translation are not quite identical, they refer to the same event. By the term rapture, reference is made to the fact that the church is “caught up” from the earth and taken to heaven."
First, he prefers the word "translation" over "rapture", but then goes striaght to "caught up". Unbelievable! Those words are directly connected to the Second Advent!
Then he makes a provably false statement: "the church is "caught-up" form the earth AND TAKEN TO HEAVEN".
So, where is that FACT in Scripture? That's what I've been razor focused on in this thread. What verse actually teaches that resurrected and raptured believers are taken to heaven?
Walvoord simply makes an assumption, and without ANY verse to back up his claim. Though he is a respected scholar and theologian, it is just sad that he makes these kinds of errors.
No wonder evangelicals are so confused, and about a whole lot of things.
This thread has gotten rather off track with the recent discussions about things other than the rapture. It seems obvious that most of these things CANNOT be understood or determined UNTIL they occur. Those alive during that time will then slap their foreheads and cry "Duh"!
In 175 pages, no one has shown any verse that teaches that resurrected and raptured believers are taken to heaven. So even though the great theologian Walvoord claims they will be, no one can prove it from Scripture.
Just sayin'
I am sorry but I have to put you on ignore. The accusations you're making are groundless.
If it were to come to a face to face debate, Walvrood would humble any one of us. More properly devastate us. You would not stand a chance in a debate with him. By my observation you have lost in every encounter with TDW. It wasn't even close. Why pray tell? Because of the VASTLY Superior scholarship of TDW. He is smoking everybody.....
<<<It seems obvious that most of these things CANNOT be understood or determined UNTIL they occur.>>>
Paul speaks you don't get it. Jesus speaks you don't get it. Case closed.