50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW said: "(having very recently made that a definite permanent fixed stance of yours, on this term)"

No, that would be you.

I was referring to your continual flip-flopping on that definition, way more than once[!], until I finally pointed it out to you that you were doing this, at which point you selected the one you NOW realized actually would IMPACT your faulty understanding of vv.1-3...

...and the point that v.2 is actually talking about...

...that's when you "very recently" decided it meant one thing rather than the other, that you had also touted in a number of not-long-ago posts [Post #1157, for just ONE example]. I myself have not "recently" swapped out one definition for another, on this point... so, no... what I just said about that, in the above quote, doesn't describe me as you suggest.

 

[Mem]

Because the text forbids it:

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

This happens before anyone gets the mark of the beast. He is quite revealed by this.


Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

This happens after the world is worshiping the beast.

Ok, I can see the logic in that, although I'm not entirely convinced that anyone would worship the beast with full awareness as per the identity the a/c. There's always the possibility my sight is clouded, but I read that full awareness comes as reflected in the fall of the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14:16 Those who see you will stare; they will ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made the kingdoms tremble,

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This thread creates many more questions than answers:

Multiple raptures

Well, Abs [member] used to say he believes there are multiple "raptures" (as he also holds to the "partial-rapture theory")... I do not.

So, I'm not sure if it is he that has been saying such, in this latest part of this thread, or not.

I've not stated there are "multiple raptures," just to be perfectly clear. = )

As I've said in past posts, the "Rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"... Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]); It does NOT pertain to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods (it does not pertain to OT saints, nor to TRIB saints, nor to MK age saints).

There will be only ONE point in time that "Rapture" will take place (not multiple ones at different times). That is, ONE RAPTURE only.




[note: this is not to say that the G726 word has never applied to individuals where this word is used in Scripture regarding them, which applied to them as stated, in the first century... I do realize that word is used in those cases also; I refer to the future corporate event--the Subject we are presently discussing in this thread--which is at one point in time only... there is only ONE "rapture"]

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I've been getting nowhere with another pretribber. Could you point me to any rapture verse that clearly explains or describes Jesus taking the resurrected and raptured believers to heaven? I would really appreciate that.

If you can't find one, why would anyone believe that Jesus will do that?

Precious friend, first, let me say, I also believe In God's FREE GRACE; so, at the
Very Least, we have that in common. Amen? Even though we Disagree on:

God's Great GRACE Departure! Now, if you will recall, I already tried to discuss
this with you... here:

FreeGrace2 said: "Remember, I want to be correct just as much as you do."

...In my Post # 2890. Your response to my "study" Outline was:

There is no "departure" in the rapture. Other than meeting all the dead believers with Jesus in the clouds.

Now, if you would appreciate "getting somewhere" with a pre-tribber like me,
this is Very Bad Start to my "study" Outline {which shows NO "verse/verses, but
simply topics to start with"}, because you "picked NO topic to start with" {in
which I Expected A Great Discussion!}, From God's HOLY Word Of Truth!!

{You simply made your statement, Correcting my belief, right?}

Now, I am humbly open to God's Word, As It Has Corrected me Many Times!
If we compare your statements To His Word, what will we find?:

"There is no 'departure' in the rapture. Other than meeting all the dead
believers with Jesus in the clouds." Compared To:

"For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds, to meet The LORD in the air: and so
shall we ever be with The LORD. Wherefore comfort one another with
These Words." (1_Thessalonians 4 : 16-17 KJB!)

(1) NO "departure"? What would you call "leaving the earth"?

(2) Self correcting? "Other than meeting all the dead believers"?
What would you call those "dead in CHRIST" who "shall rise first"?

(3) "meeting all the dead believers with Jesus in the clouds"?
Isn't this the Wrong Order/Misrepresenting God's Words?:

"...the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and
remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to
meet The LORD in the air..."

Did "we get anywhere," yet? + I don't believe God's Sound Doctrine
"can be built" Only on ONE verse, But, On ALL Of God's Word!
{see Rule # 5 in Bible "study" Rules = agree or disagree?}

Conclusion:

Sorry, Precious friend, if This "rapture verse is wrong," then, I
must say, I believe, as you say, "we will be getting nowhere," as
I, then Cannot "point you to any OTHER {Incorrect} rapture verse,"
which "no one else would believe," being Incorrect, Correct?

Be Blessed!

 

[cv5]

This is pure nonsense and even the analogy is weak. People like Randy and other post-tribs are the clock makers. Those of the pre-trib fantasy are just the clock cleaners. Get back to work

The post-tribbers are getting smoked like a hog North Carolina barbecue. How is that for an analogy?

 

[cv5]

Well, Abs [member] used to say he believes there are multiple "raptures" (as he also holds to the "partial-rapture theory")... I do not.

So, I'm not sure if it is he that has been saying such, in this latest part of this thread, or not.

I've not stated there are "multiple raptures," just to be perfectly clear. = )

As I've said in past posts, the "Rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"... Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]); It does NOT pertain to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods (it does not pertain to OT saints, nor to TRIB saints, nor to MK age saints).

There will be only ONE point in time that "Rapture" will take place (not multiple ones at different times). That is, ONE RAPTURE only.




[note: this is not to say that the G726 word has never applied to individuals where this word is used in Scripture regarding them, which applied to them as stated, in the first century... I do realize that word is used in those cases also; I refer to the future corporate event--the Subject we are presently discussing in this thread--which is at one point in time only... there is only ONE "rapture"]

Totally agree. As far as the Church is concerned it is ONE and DONE. Starts at Pentecost ends, at the Rapture. That's it and that's all.....

 

[Runningman]

The post-tribbers are getting smoked like a hog North Carolina barbecue. How is that for an analogy?

I just showed 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 to someone who doesn't even read the Bible. Without my input, I asked them to explain it to me. They concluded that the coming of Jesus and our gathering to Him does not come until after the man of sin is revealed. Without me even suggesting it, they also guessed the man of sin is the anti-Christ.

Their conclusion about those who think the text says otherwise? "Some people you can't help."

Truth is that people without a dog in the race, so to speak, or preconceived biases, can't even see what pre-tribbers are saying is there. The plain reading of the verses makes the pre-trib theory a literal impossibility.

 

[cv5]

I don't need Joel to understand Paul in v.1-3.

Oh but I think you do. You should start at the very beginning and that would be Joel. I mean you are the one who has openly declared that you do not understand the DOTL after all. Correct?

 

[cv5]

This is pure nonsense and even the analogy is weak. People like Randy and other post-tribs are the clock makers. Those of the pre-trib fantasy are just the clock cleaners. Get back to work

You mean the dude that doesn't even understand the Day of the Lord?
Him? He's your mentor, your leader your sage?

Just my $0.02 but I think you can do better......

 

[cv5]

I just showed 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 to someone who doesn't even read the Bible. Without my input, I asked them to explain it to me. They concluded that the coming of Jesus and our gathering to Him does not come until after the man of sin is revealed. Without me even suggesting it, they also guessed the man of sin is the anti-Christ.

Their conclusion about those who think the text says otherwise? "Some people you can't help."

Truth is that people without a dog in the race, so to speak, or preconceived biases, can't even see what pre-tribbers are saying is there. The plain reading of the verses makes the pre-trib theory a literal impossibility.

This unbeliever is even more filled with the Holy Spirit than the rank-and-file post-tribber I take it? And post-tribbers are seeking counsel from this unbeliever? That's quite an admission....

Yep.....post-tribbers getting smoked like a hog at a North Carolina BBQ......

I've got to hand it to them though.......they are tough. One bone crushing defeat after another and they keep coming back for more......

 

[Runningman]

This unbeliever is even more filled with the Holy Spirit than the rank-and-file post-tribber I take it? And post-tribbers are seeking counsel from this unbeliever? That's quite an admission....

Yep.....post-tribbers getting smoked like a hog at a North Carolina BBQ......

I've got to hand it to them though.......they are tough. One bone crushing defeat after another and they keep coming back for more......

I'm saying that I found someone to ask who doesn't have a bias about the scripture so I could get their opinion. Their opinion was that of a post-tribber because that's what the scriptures clearly explain.

Honestly, that would be a sobering wake up call to me if I heard this. I guess it's true that some people you can't help.

In my honest opinion, these discussions haven't defeated the post-trib rapture. That's a bold claim to make.

 

[VCO]

I'm saying that I found someone to ask who doesn't have a bias about the scripture so I could get their opinion. Their opinion was that of a post-tribber because that's what the scriptures clearly explain.

Honestly, that would be a sobering wake up call to me if I heard this. I guess it's true that some people you can't help.

In my honest opinion, these discussions haven't defeated the post-trib rapture. That's a bold claim to make.

You found some one with a post-trib bias, and bought in to his False Theology.

 

[cv5]

I'm saying that I found someone to ask who doesn't have a bias about the scripture so I could get their opinion. Their opinion was that of a post-tribber because that's what the scriptures clearly explain.

Honestly, that would be a sobering wake up call to me if I heard this. I guess it's true that some people you can't help.

In my honest opinion, these discussions haven't defeated the post-trib rapture. That's a bold claim to make.

Opinion of unbeliever = opinion of post-tribber?
Okay man have it your way.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, I can see the logic in that, although I'm not entirely convinced that anyone would worship the beast with full awareness as per the identity the a/c.

The deceived will not get full awareness of who the AC is until the end of the Great Tribulation.

 

[Runningman]

Opinion of unbeliever = opinion of post-tribber?
Okay man have it your way.

Opinion of someone with normal reading comprehension = post-tribber.

 

[ewq1938]

The post-tribbers are getting smoked like a hog North Carolina barbecue. How is that for an analogy?

You applied it incorrectly. The pre-tribbers are getting smoked like a hog North Carolina barbecue.

 

[Runningman]

You found some one with a post-trib bias, and bought in to his False Theology.

Nope.

 

[ewq1938]

Another thing that pre-tribs stumble over is that Revelation 3:10's, "keep thee from" which is the Greek "tereo ge ek".
"tereo ek" is only found in one other place in the bible and the context means to be kept from something while remaining present until it ends. This is true of examples of plagues, wrath, and tribulation where people were there and lived through those events and weren't
removed from the Earth to escape them.



John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.


No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.

 

[Runningman]

Another thing that pre-tribs stumble over is that Revelation 3:10's, "keep thee from" which is the Greek "tereo ge ek".
"tereo ek" is only found in one other place in the bible and the context means to be kept from something while remaining present until it ends. This is true of examples of plagues, wrath, and tribulation where people were there and lived through those events and weren't
removed from the Earth to escape them.



John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.


No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.

Exactly. Jesus taught endurance rather than escape. One would think that if Jesus was preparing His followers to escape the tribulation in the world then He would have said something about that escape. He never mentioned any such escape until "after the tribulation."

 

[ewq1938]

Exactly. Jesus taught endurance rather than escape. One would think that if Jesus was preparing His followers to escape the tribulation in the world then He would have said something about that escape. He never mentioned any such escape until "after the tribulation."

And that isn't an escape. It's a gathering of people spread all over the planet so they can be all together for the first time and for them to all meet Christ in the clouds at the same time. That meeting is brief then they will follow Christ down to the Earth, possibly stopping at Armageddon first.