Precious friend, sorry it was just a "play on words" because of
pre-tribers instead of pre-tribbers. I apologize for any Confusion.
See you, in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫
↑ 50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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pre-tribers instead of pre-tribbers. I apologize for any Confusion.
See you, in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫
↑ 
I don't know what you're saying about Lot and Noah, nor about Jesus? You didn't address the point. But yes, I can say that hyperbole explains many, many statements in the Bible that otherwise would be incomprehensible. That's why hyperbole is often used, to generalize without getting too specific.
To say that *everybody* is made to take the mark assumes a thinking person can understand there are unstated conditions that limit how far we should take this. For one, we have to consider whether this is speaking of the entire globe, or only about the immediate "world" that a particular community is living in. Since we already are given that Antichrist's empire is limited to 10 nations, we know that this is not speaking about the entire globe.
Two, we have to consider if this is talking only about a policy, and not necessarily how truly universal its effectiveness is. Since the Bible declares that Christians survive until the end, we have to assume that not everybody unwilling to take the mark will die.
So generalized statements are not "against the Bible," but a very, very common language tool used in the Bible. It is the context and common sense that determines how extensive we are to take various statements.
Precious friend(s) who WILL BE STAYING ON EARTH!:
"And The LORD Shall Deliver me from every evil work, and Will Preserve
me unto his HEAVENLY kingdom: to Whom Be GLORY For Ever And Ever.
Amen." (2_Timothy 4 : 18 KJB!) Amen?
"And The LORD Shall Deliver me from every evil work, and Will Preserve
me unto his HEAVENLY kingdom: to Whom Be GLORY For Ever And Ever.
Amen." (2_Timothy 4 : 18 KJB!) Amen?
It is amazing to me how Pretrib Theology can be fit into Paul's statements without there being a shred of justification for it. But fit it in they do!
Yes, you're correct about *objective evidence.* We are to be looking for some specific elements associated with Christ's Coming, and it isn't anything esoteric like a "Secret Rapture!"
I think you're really making the issue quite clear. DW starts by addressing, in vs. 1, the Day of the Rapture, and then switches to talking about a completely different "extended Day" in vs. 3, involving something else.
It is mass confusion with his effort to insert Pretrib Theology into a passage that doesn't warrant it. It's like taking a simple sentence and then arbitrarily switching various nouns to make it say something else.
It is amazing to me how Pretrib Theology can be fit into Paul's statements without there being a shred of justification for it. But fit it in they do!
Yes, you're correct about *objective evidence.* We are to be looking for some specific elements associated with Christ's Coming, and it isn't anything esoteric like a "Secret Rapture!"
Depends really how one construes tribulation. As it is a rather confused concept, the rest then gets very muddled - hence the
trib wars and even "Trib Warriors"
Depends really how one construes tribulation. As it is a rather confused concept, the rest then gets very muddled - hence the
trib wars and even "Trib Warriors"
Actually, I've been studying this argument for many years, and the perspective I've settled upon, namely Postrib, is very clear and simple to me. Pretrib has *always* been a muddled, confused set of propositions, such as dividing Jesus' Coming into 2 stages, one a "manifestation" and the other a "secret coming."
As I said, there is *nothing* in this passage or anywhere in the Bible to suggest that Jesus comes in 2 stages--not readable theology at all. This is purely subjective evidence, inserting the idea before reading it into the Scriptures. All of the supposed "proofs" are based on allegorizations. Bad idea!
As Walter Martin, famed apologist, used to say, "The Holy Spirit doesn't speak in riddles, or in a confused way--He doesn't have a speech impediment. When He wants to say something He comes out and says it!"
Error and false propaganda thrive on darkness and esoteric phenomena, on cabalism, on mysticism, on pure revelation without objective evidence. We should be aware that truth is based on what the Bible says, and not on what we wish it to say. We can make anything mean anything if we want it bad enough. The truth is relatively simple. We simple have to believe what we read.
Well that is for sure - Jesus doesn't come in 2 stages - that is a really bizarre curate's egg.
I can't imagine any reputable scholar putting their name to that
Conversely - I am definitely pre-Wrath
My issue isn't with pre-Wrath--that is cousin to my own position, and covers the essentials that I'm concerned with here. The book of Revelation was written to *encourage* Christians who go through various tribulations and tests to their faith. They are encouraged to be true warriors of faith, enduring to the end.
Pretribism completely overhauls this and upends it by stating the opposite, that we will not have to endure and stand strong. We will simply be excluded form this time period and exempted from "God's wrath," even though the period of Antichrist's Reign is not "God's Wrath," but only "Antichrist's Wrath!"
When the question arises, "Would God punish the world so severely, as indicated in the book of Revelation, if there are good Christians in it? "
Well, one, we don't know that most of what is spoken there may take place at the very end of this time?
And two, Christians have *always* had to go through rough times, as the world has been punished by various natural and human-made disasters. We've always had to bear up under circumstances caused by the wicked in order to be a witness to them of God's patience and forgiveness.
I'm happy with pre-Wrath, though. I don't know at exactly what time we will be delivered? I just know it will be when Jesus comes back!
The secret rapture that Paul first spoke about to the Thessalonians (and doubtless everybody else too) and then wrote confirmation of same? That's no secret. That's what you call duly recorded doctrine.It is amazing to me how Pretrib Theology can be fit into Paul's statements without there being a shred of justification for it. But fit it in they do!
Yes, you're correct about *objective evidence.* We are to be looking for some specific elements associated with Christ's Coming, and it isn't anything esoteric like a "Secret Rapture!"
Just the ones you fail to acknowledge or don't understand. Don't blame Paul blame yourself....So secret it comes without any scriptural references
In all honesty, cv5, I don't see it! I'm regularly directed to 1 Thes 4 for "proof" of a secret, Pretrib Rapture, but none can be found there! It just isn't there! If you see an imaginary rabbit that I don't see, I doubt you'll be able to prove it's really there.
And yes, I really have seen something like "pink elephants" in my teen years. But those years are long gone!
Take care...
Take it up with Jesus. Just tell him he made a mistake.
"""
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."""
He went to all that trouble to vividly tell us all take the mark or die. Vivid.
The bible is a doctrine destroyer.
I will maintain my position of making men refute the bible.
here is a pink elephant for you.In all honesty, cv5, I don't see it! I'm regularly directed to 1 Thes 4 for "proof" of a secret, Pretrib Rapture, but none can be found there! It just isn't there! If you see an imaginary rabbit that I don't see, I doubt you'll be able to prove it's really there.
And yes, I really have seen something like "pink elephants" in my teen years. But those years are long gone!
Take care...
Rev 14 has Jesus harvesting from a cloud with a sickle .
1 Thes 4 has the dead rising first.
See that word "FIRST"?
IT Means BEFORE THE LIVING.
PSSSST....as in rev 14 harvest of the living.
Postribs need that scripture removed.
BTW... are there any postribs that actually address this?
I mean do they skip it ?
Reframe it?
Yes...both
Totally agree man. You don't get it, you don't see it, you don't understand it. Despite the finest tutoring and the finest exegesis by the finest commentator (TDW) here on CC. Fortunately that is your problem and not mine.In all honesty, cv5, I don't see it! I'm regularly directed to 1 Thes 4 for "proof" of a secret, Pretrib Rapture, but none can be found there! It just isn't there! If you see an imaginary rabbit that I don't see, I doubt you'll be able to prove it's really there.
And yes, I really have seen something like "pink elephants" in my teen years. But those years are long gone!
Take care...
In terms of concept context and content, the pretrib rapture is to me so utterly crystal clear, that there is not the slightest shadow of a doubt as to its veracity. And if you DO understand the whole counsel of God you see that it fits PERFECTLY into ALL of the Old Testament and New Testament prophecies AND the manifestation of the incidences that have already taken place and recorded.
Like I said before.......it's all there and it's indisputable and irrefutable.
NOT getting it and NOT seeing it is definitely NOT my problem. And thank God for that.
DW's exegesis is *horrible!* He may be a fine Christian man, but his communication skills are wanting, perhaps due to the subject matter. It really takes a pretty good mind to be able to fit a theology into the Bible where it isn't warranted!
Should it be any surprise to you that DW embellishes his commentary with so many parentheses, brackets, bolds, italics, etc? He is not letting the Scriptures speak for themselves, but is trying to direct you away from the simpler meaning. He is trying to *fit* his beliefs into the passage.
What surprises me is that you say this muddy explanation is "clear as crystal." You have got to be kidding!!
As for you, you shouldn't rely on him. You should rely on your own reading skills, which are clearly capable of grasping what Paul is saying, without messing with the word meanings. Paul is saying that some got it wrong, declaring that Jesus had already come. Paul was saying Jesus cannot come unless the Antichrist is revealed 1st.
Easy peazy.
If it happens at night. And heaven does put it on cnn....it will be a surprise to all left behind upon awakening to cnn.So secret it comes without any scriptural references
I can see them resurrecting ufo silly mess as we speak.
It is a clue.
They will say people were abducted.
Interesting twist.....will the children of the left behind go in the rapture?
Do you really believe this fantasy science fiction? That story is both crazy and hilarious! I watch these "Rapture" movies out of pure entertainment. Do you really believe that millions of people will be snatched out of their cars, out of their clothes, out of piloting airplanes, etc. and the world will just think it is just some big alien abduction? Maybe you've been reading too many fantasy novels or watching too many sc fi movies?
I do believe there will be a "Rapture" of sorts. After all, it did happen to Enoch and to Elijah. And it happened to Jesus too. However, instead of this being a major news article on CNN, this is going to be a war to end all wars, the battle of Armageddon. It will be a global war, replete with nukes. People will likely be dead up to a billion people. Most Christians will have to be resurrected. The few who survive will indeed to caught up and transformed. But it won't be all this pre-Kingdom drama.