Do catholics worship God or the pope?
- Thread starter Unearthed
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Never said I was. If you do not agree with what was posted don't be afraid to say you do not believe Jesus is the only way and Peter answers your prayers. Come on 
You come to this chat Bible BDF and tell us you are not going to answer questions?. Bye
You come to this chat Bible BDF and tell us you are not going to answer questions?. ByeAnd he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Matt 16 15-16
My faith allows me to believe that even if we disagree on this subject, if both of us are good, we can still both end up in heaven. Does yours?
-
1
- Show all
I have no idea whether the brother hates or berates Catholics, but he's essentially right that the RCC is wrong on the various stated points.
Peter was not made the father of papal succession. We should not pray to Mary, and Mary's prayers for us has nothing to do with our worship. We should not pray to the saints, nor to symbols of holy things. We shouldn't go searching for signs to prove sainthood. We shouldn't be searching for signs period, unless it has to do with guiding us in God's will. We shouldn't make contact with the dead period. We shouldn't accept what the Pope says as authoritative simply because some popes fall short. Accrued Catholic traditions always need to be scrutinized afresh to ensure they conform with God's written word.
Equally important, Catholics should not claim that they are the exclusive ecclesiastical structure or organization through which Salvation comes, or the only one that God is pleased for us to worship in. Sectarianism is carnal.
But if you want to show good Christian fruit by being brotherly with those outside of the Catholic communion, that is a respectful thing to do. Otherwise, why even visit a non-Catholic or "mixed" Christian forum? Nevertheless, I would welcome you as a brother if you treated me as one.
Peter was not made the father of papal succession. We should not pray to Mary, and Mary's prayers for us has nothing to do with our worship. We should not pray to the saints, nor to symbols of holy things. We shouldn't go searching for signs to prove sainthood. We shouldn't be searching for signs period, unless it has to do with guiding us in God's will. We shouldn't make contact with the dead period. We shouldn't accept what the Pope says as authoritative simply because some popes fall short. Accrued Catholic traditions always need to be scrutinized afresh to ensure they conform with God's written word.
Equally important, Catholics should not claim that they are the exclusive ecclesiastical structure or organization through which Salvation comes, or the only one that God is pleased for us to worship in. Sectarianism is carnal.
But if you want to show good Christian fruit by being brotherly with those outside of the Catholic communion, that is a respectful thing to do. Otherwise, why even visit a non-Catholic or "mixed" Christian forum? Nevertheless, I would welcome you as a brother if you treated me as one.
Let's dig into this a little further - your reply interests me and is worth of answers that may surprise you.
Firstly, the Pope.....
Did you know that there are in fact several of them? The RCC has one, but so do various Orthodox branches. Therefore the Pope that is being referred to is more correctly viewed as Chief Bishop of the RCC. The claim is that the lineage of the Pope can be traced back to Peter. It is no secret there have been good and bad Popes too. Also, as I have just revealed, there are competing claims to that lineage as the Orthodox Church and the RCC were the first 'big' churches to split.
Any church that is apostolic in nature can lay claim to links with Peter if they wish, so in my eyes it's not the be all and end all.
Praying to Mary and Saints etc - Any good Catholic will tell you that you don't have to pray to them to achieve salvation. And that is the simple truth. But doing so does not cancel one's salvation either. It's a touchy subject to Protestants, but we genuinely do not worship Angels / Saints / Mary. We simply ask them to pray for us. We view it as no different to asking a friend to pray for us.
As for signs, we don't base our faith upon them, but they do happen. Just like people speak in tongues, lay hands and heal, Baptismal healings, prophesy and revelation etc occurs with your version. (That happens in our church too BTW)
I do not believe this either "Catholics claim that they are the exclusive ecclesiastical structure or organization through which Salvation comes, or the only one that God is pleased for us to worship in." I've never heard it once in church that Catholic catechism is the only way to achieve salvation. Quite the opposite actually. We just believe in doing what we do and concentrating on Jesus and his love. Furthermore, the very word Catholic is latin for Universal. And that is what I believe in - one Universal body of Christ. Denomination is unimportant in the body as a whole.
I personally have many Protestant friends who I view as brothers and sisters in Christ, furthermore, I pray with and for them.
I never joined this site to be a Catholic apologist. I came here to talk about Jesus and how great he is. If people take offense to the fact that I will defend my version of faith, they should also understand that when the chips are down and things get real (like they are right now) I will eagerly go on bended knee before the Lord hand and hand with anyone from any church.
Jesus does not see Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Born again etc. He sees hearts and those who love him and stand with him and those who do are cold to him and are against him. That is all. I come here as one of those who love him and stand with him. Nothing more, nothing less.
Firstly, the Pope.....
Did you know that there are in fact several of them? The RCC has one, but so do various Orthodox branches. Therefore the Pope that is being referred to is more correctly viewed as Chief Bishop of the RCC. The claim is that the lineage of the Pope can be traced back to Peter. It is no secret there have been good and bad Popes too. Also, as I have just revealed, there are competing claims to that lineage as the Orthodox Church and the RCC were the first 'big' churches to split.
Any church that is apostolic in nature can lay claim to links with Peter if they wish, so in my eyes it's not the be all and end all.
Praying to Mary and Saints etc - Any good Catholic will tell you that you don't have to pray to them to achieve salvation. And that is the simple truth. But doing so does not cancel one's salvation either. It's a touchy subject to Protestants, but we genuinely do not worship Angels / Saints / Mary. We simply ask them to pray for us. We view it as no different to asking a friend to pray for us.
As for signs, we don't base our faith upon them, but they do happen. Just like people speak in tongues, lay hands and heal, Baptismal healings, prophesy and revelation etc occurs with your version. (That happens in our church too BTW)
I do not believe this either "Catholics claim that they are the exclusive ecclesiastical structure or organization through which Salvation comes, or the only one that God is pleased for us to worship in." I've never heard it once in church that Catholic catechism is the only way to achieve salvation. Quite the opposite actually. We just believe in doing what we do and concentrating on Jesus and his love. Furthermore, the very word Catholic is latin for Universal. And that is what I believe in - one Universal body of Christ. Denomination is unimportant in the body as a whole.
I personally have many Protestant friends who I view as brothers and sisters in Christ, furthermore, I pray with and for them.
I never joined this site to be a Catholic apologist. I came here to talk about Jesus and how great he is. If people take offense to the fact that I will defend my version of faith, they should also understand that when the chips are down and things get real (like they are right now) I will eagerly go on bended knee before the Lord hand and hand with anyone from any church.
Jesus does not see Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Born again etc. He sees hearts and those who love him and stand with him and those who do are cold to him and are against him. That is all. I come here as one of those who love him and stand with him. Nothing more, nothing less.
-
1
- Show all
hmmmm wrong!
You have accepted Peter as the first pope from an improper exegesis of THE WORD OF JESUS
in Matthew 16:15-20
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
When Jesus said to Peter upon this ROCK the rock was not Peter it was the statement of Faith revealed to HIM who Jesus was
“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
it is in the name of Jesus His authority that the church stands and remains Faith in Christ alone. The name Peter means stone a part of the chief Corner Stone but not the chef stone. Peter is not the rock that the church was built on Peter was used because of the great faith and revelation given to him by God. How do I know this?
because many RCC fail you read just a few verses later when Jesus says to this same peter
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Which is it? Peter the Pope or Peter the devil? he can't be both. So, if we read what is said contextually Peter is not the devil no more than he is the first pope or the ROCK on which the church was and is built faith in Christ and HIM alone.
-
2
- Show all
Maybe you should read this; It sums up my view on denominational bickering perfectly;
Then an argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47But Jesus, knowing the thoughts of their hearts, had a little child stand beside Him. 48And He said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in My name welcomes Me, and whoever welcomes Me welcomes the One who sent Me. For whoever is the least among all of you, he is the greatest.”
49“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.”
50“Do not stop him,” Jesus replied, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”
Luke 9 46 - 50
The truth in how Jesus masterfully showed how bickering over who is greatest was pointless to his apostles is just as valid here. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ and just as Jesus said, "Whoever is the least among you will be the greatest" and "Whoever is not against you is for you"
Then an argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47But Jesus, knowing the thoughts of their hearts, had a little child stand beside Him. 48And He said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in My name welcomes Me, and whoever welcomes Me welcomes the One who sent Me. For whoever is the least among all of you, he is the greatest.”
49“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.”
50“Do not stop him,” Jesus replied, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”
Luke 9 46 - 50
The truth in how Jesus masterfully showed how bickering over who is greatest was pointless to his apostles is just as valid here. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ and just as Jesus said, "Whoever is the least among you will be the greatest" and "Whoever is not against you is for you"
-
1
- Show all
the key statement is " in Your name," which means using your authority. Not the first pope, not dead saints, not the Mother of Jesus
it was in the name and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. There are many we leave alone who are doing work in the name of the Lord.
Yet we do not let them teach error. apples to apples.
Then you are not reading everything I write, because the next sentence reads
"Jesus is all of mankind's saviour. Jesus is the one I believe in. "
If you're going to just cherrypick and misquote me to perpetuate dischord, then I am done here. This argument is becoming a distraction from Jesus because we are simply arguing over him instead of coming together because of him.
#disappointing.
May Jesus bless you and keep you in his company always.
"Jesus is all of mankind's saviour. Jesus is the one I believe in. "
If you're going to just cherrypick and misquote me to perpetuate dischord, then I am done here. This argument is becoming a distraction from Jesus because we are simply arguing over him instead of coming together because of him.
#disappointing.
May Jesus bless you and keep you in his company always.
-
1
- Show all
that is a good deflection to a very simple question that you say if we read it is clearly seen. it is not.
Now, again Is Jesus Christ the only way to heaven and the only means of Salvation? Y/N
Peter is not the first Pope
praying to dead people is not Biblical. Being the first organized denomination doesn't give you priority with God those who are first will be last those who are last will be first. Being first is not mean you are saved. Simple every new believer would answer these without avoiding but not you.
Now, again Is Jesus Christ the only way to heaven and the only means of Salvation? Y/N
Peter is not the first Pope
praying to dead people is not Biblical. Being the first organized denomination doesn't give you priority with God those who are first will be last those who are last will be first. Being first is not mean you are saved. Simple every new believer would answer these without avoiding but not you.
I like your attitude, but it isn't true to the Catholic faith. You're only one person with one opinion in a Catholic sea. And the history is clear to me. I was raised a Lutheran, and know full well how a bad pope tried to murder Luther, claiming he just wanted to "hear him out." And it was a systemic problem, not just a single Pope. Why else do you think we had the European Wars of Religion? Or are you really that naïve?
The Popes have long claimed that Salvation comes through the Catholic Church, and that true Christian unity requires submission to a single Pope. Enough of this condescension to "other popes." That is laughable except for the fact you seem quite sincere in your belief. Just because you're a Catholic doesn't make you representative of that faith anymore than someone living in a small town in Alaska makes one representative of all America.
Catholic papal positions were clearly exclusivistic in the past, and remain so today, as you can see in the following article--
read HERE
"Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is 'the all-embracing means of salvation,' that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God." 7
Now try again to sell me on your "non-exclusivistic" Church? Clearly, you believe all denominations *should* be united in a *single organization under the Pope!* Enough of this false rhetoric about there being "other popes." You know full well they are not accepted except as inferiors, who do not enjoy the "full blessings of salvation."
Okay, you and the Pope and Catholics all concede that there are real, saved Christians outside of the Catholic communion. But the main point still stands, that outside of your organization you consider Christians out of unity with you, because you propose an *organizational unity* rather than a purely "spiritual unity." You think spiritual unity *requires* an organizational unity led by your Pope. And that is clearly unbiblical.
But Catholics will not be corrected, because they think they alone are the true Church. They decide what they can do and what they can't do, what is "biblical" and what is not "biblical." How convenient! Detractors are not allowed to point out where they have been offended by the Catholic Church. Sound familiar? Some think that's what's happened with the priest molestation problem. They think it's a papal coverup.
That is what miffs me, and what I am calling "unbiblical." And as a Christian you shouldn't lie about it, but should just accept it as real if you wish to remain in that communion.
I am in a church where I don't agree with all of the doctrines. But there is enough there to enjoy spiritual fellowship with brothers and sisters. And I simply ignore or protest when these other doctrines come up that I don't agree with.
You should take the same course, in my judgment. Thanks for engaging me on this. I don't hate Catholics. I have played a mass on keyboards, and many fine Christians have been raised up in the Catholic Church.
The Popes have long claimed that Salvation comes through the Catholic Church, and that true Christian unity requires submission to a single Pope. Enough of this condescension to "other popes." That is laughable except for the fact you seem quite sincere in your belief. Just because you're a Catholic doesn't make you representative of that faith anymore than someone living in a small town in Alaska makes one representative of all America.
Catholic papal positions were clearly exclusivistic in the past, and remain so today, as you can see in the following article--
read HERE
"Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is 'the all-embracing means of salvation,' that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God." 7
Now try again to sell me on your "non-exclusivistic" Church? Clearly, you believe all denominations *should* be united in a *single organization under the Pope!* Enough of this false rhetoric about there being "other popes." You know full well they are not accepted except as inferiors, who do not enjoy the "full blessings of salvation."
Okay, you and the Pope and Catholics all concede that there are real, saved Christians outside of the Catholic communion. But the main point still stands, that outside of your organization you consider Christians out of unity with you, because you propose an *organizational unity* rather than a purely "spiritual unity." You think spiritual unity *requires* an organizational unity led by your Pope. And that is clearly unbiblical.
But Catholics will not be corrected, because they think they alone are the true Church. They decide what they can do and what they can't do, what is "biblical" and what is not "biblical." How convenient! Detractors are not allowed to point out where they have been offended by the Catholic Church. Sound familiar? Some think that's what's happened with the priest molestation problem. They think it's a papal coverup.
That is what miffs me, and what I am calling "unbiblical." And as a Christian you shouldn't lie about it, but should just accept it as real if you wish to remain in that communion.
I am in a church where I don't agree with all of the doctrines. But there is enough there to enjoy spiritual fellowship with brothers and sisters. And I simply ignore or protest when these other doctrines come up that I don't agree with.
You should take the same course, in my judgment. Thanks for engaging me on this. I don't hate Catholics. I have played a mass on keyboards, and many fine Christians have been raised up in the Catholic Church.