50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Yes.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Context is the second coming.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Context is the second coming.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.
So, the proper order of events according to scripture:
1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Context is the second coming.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Context is the second coming.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.
So, the proper order of events according to scripture:
1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.
That's not deflection. That is a valid contention. In fact you seem to use that card anytime the truth is presented.
Your contending about Jesus coming from heaven and then making a u-turn. But the bigger issue would be the entire church being caught up into the air to meet the Lord and then the entire group coming right back down, ergo, big u-turn. It has nothing to do with deflection. It is a comparison to your plain.
Oh, I've proven it. You're simply not using any reasoning or logic to comprehend it.
I gave you the scriptures and they are crystal clear. Paul says our citizenship is in heaven and we await a Savior from there. That event must take place at some time before the millennial kingdom, because during that thousand years we will be ruling on this earth with the Lord in our immortal and glorified bodies.
Ok, now pay attention! Are your spiritual sensors on?
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
Regarding this, Paul said the following:
But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.
Now pay attention!!! Since we are going to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and our citizenship is in heaven, then that is exactly where we will be going, to heaven. And since we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the event of our being gathered must take place prior to said wrath.
In addition to these two scriptures include John 14:1-3
"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."
It doesn't really take that much to put this information together. You almost seem to be defiant to admit to the truth.
As John 14:1-3 makes clear, Jesus said that there are many dwelling places in His Father's house, which could only be referring to heaven. Then the Lord said that He was going there (to the Father's house) to prepare places for us and that He was going to come back to get us to take the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.
It's just a simple matter of letting go of the information that you have adopted and open your eyes to the truth.
Well, it makes sense that the Lord would come from heaven to gather us and then take us back.
That's just a diversion! I've done nothing but present scripture with my posts, as I always do. All you have to do is go back and read them.
And I don't have an "interpretation". I have an actual verse.
Yeah, but the scripture that you provided is being misapplied. Not paying attention to the details is your error. It is 'The Day of the Lord' that will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed and not the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him. You guys continue to ignore the change here. The gathering of the church and the Day of the Lord are closely linked events, with the gathering of the church taking place first and then the Day of the Lord follows, which is the time of God's wrath.
I have proved you wrong. You're just not listening. In order for the living church to be gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. Therefore, we cannot be present on the earth when God's wrath is being poured out. These are the truths that you are not taking into consideration. Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that we deserve, satisfying it completely, therefore we cannot be present on the earth for God's coming wrath.
Until you understand these basic principles, your conclusions will continue to be in error.
The blue words in v.1 refer to the rapture/gathering to Him.
The green words in v.3 refer to the Tribulation.
Regarding your rant above, please show me one place in scripture where the word 'Church' is used in Revelation throughout chapters 6 thru 18. The word disappears from print during the narrative of God's wrath. Yet, it was the only word used throughout chapters 1 thru 3. These are the deeper truths of God's word that you are not understanding. Revelation 4:1 is representing the gathering of the church. But if you're not understanding these other truths, you're not understand or accept that one either nor any of the other hidden truths.
Your contending about Jesus coming from heaven and then making a u-turn. But the bigger issue would be the entire church being caught up into the air to meet the Lord and then the entire group coming right back down, ergo, big u-turn. It has nothing to do with deflection. It is a comparison to your plain.
Oh, I've proven it. You're simply not using any reasoning or logic to comprehend it.
I gave you the scriptures and they are crystal clear. Paul says our citizenship is in heaven and we await a Savior from there. That event must take place at some time before the millennial kingdom, because during that thousand years we will be ruling on this earth with the Lord in our immortal and glorified bodies.
Ok, now pay attention! Are your spiritual sensors on?
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
Regarding this, Paul said the following:
But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.
Now pay attention!!! Since we are going to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and our citizenship is in heaven, then that is exactly where we will be going, to heaven. And since we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the event of our being gathered must take place prior to said wrath.
In addition to these two scriptures include John 14:1-3
"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."
It doesn't really take that much to put this information together. You almost seem to be defiant to admit to the truth.
As John 14:1-3 makes clear, Jesus said that there are many dwelling places in His Father's house, which could only be referring to heaven. Then the Lord said that He was going there (to the Father's house) to prepare places for us and that He was going to come back to get us to take the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.
It's just a simple matter of letting go of the information that you have adopted and open your eyes to the truth.
Well, it makes sense that the Lord would come from heaven to gather us and then take us back.
That's just a diversion! I've done nothing but present scripture with my posts, as I always do. All you have to do is go back and read them.
And I don't have an "interpretation". I have an actual verse.
Yeah, but the scripture that you provided is being misapplied. Not paying attention to the details is your error. It is 'The Day of the Lord' that will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed and not the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him. You guys continue to ignore the change here. The gathering of the church and the Day of the Lord are closely linked events, with the gathering of the church taking place first and then the Day of the Lord follows, which is the time of God's wrath.
I have proved you wrong. You're just not listening. In order for the living church to be gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. Therefore, we cannot be present on the earth when God's wrath is being poured out. These are the truths that you are not taking into consideration. Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that we deserve, satisfying it completely, therefore we cannot be present on the earth for God's coming wrath.
Until you understand these basic principles, your conclusions will continue to be in error.
The blue words in v.1 refer to the rapture/gathering to Him.
The green words in v.3 refer to the Tribulation.
Regarding your rant above, please show me one place in scripture where the word 'Church' is used in Revelation throughout chapters 6 thru 18. The word disappears from print during the narrative of God's wrath. Yet, it was the only word used throughout chapters 1 thru 3. These are the deeper truths of God's word that you are not understanding. Revelation 4:1 is representing the gathering of the church. But if you're not understanding these other truths, you're not understand or accept that one either nor any of the other hidden truths.
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I don't think it's true. It is true:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Context is the second coming.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Context is the second coming.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.
Well, reading the first 2 chapters of Job reveals that God hardly bound him at all. In the first go, the only restriction on satan was that he couldn't "touch Job" physically.
In the second go, the only restriction was that satan couldn't kill Job. Not too much of a binding, as far as I can see. Satan took away EVERYTHING that was important to Job; his entire family except wife, and all his wealth. Then, rather than just kill Job, Satan gave him the most painful condition imaginable. And Job sure wished he was dead.
Yes, that is when Satan will be bound. When Christ returns and sets up His kingdom.
Did I say you said he was dead? Of coure he isn't dead. In fact, no angel can die. But all the fallen ones will end up in the "second death", for eternity.
I never said he was. However, the Bible says that satan deceive the whole world, and that he leads the whole world astray. That's not being bound.
In the second go, the only restriction was that satan couldn't kill Job. Not too much of a binding, as far as I can see. Satan took away EVERYTHING that was important to Job; his entire family except wife, and all his wealth. Then, rather than just kill Job, Satan gave him the most painful condition imaginable. And Job sure wished he was dead.
Yes, that is when Satan will be bound. When Christ returns and sets up His kingdom.
Did I say you said he was dead? Of coure he isn't dead. In fact, no angel can die. But all the fallen ones will end up in the "second death", for eternity.
I never said he was. However, the Bible says that satan deceive the whole world, and that he leads the whole world astray. That's not being bound.
Bring with Him = the spirits in heaven returning with the Lord to be united with their resurrected bodies.
Second coming is inferred by you because of lack of understanding that the church cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.
Once again, second coming is misapplied by you. The coming of the Lord, is when He appears in the air and calls up the dead and the living believers. Always keep in mind that the church cannot enter into the time of God's wrath. Without it your lost!
You are coming in with partial information. You're not utilize all of scripture on this subject in order to come to a right conclusion.
When I read that the punishment that brought us peace was upon Christ and that when we believed we were credited with His righteousness and reconciled to God, I don't sweep that under the rug, but apply it. And since God's punishment was placed on Christ, then God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Him. Since God's wrath has been satisfied, then there is no reason for believers in Christ to be exposed to it.
Once again, by your claim above, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God. Regarding this, please provide one place within chapters 6 thru 18, which is the narrative of God's wrath, where the church is even mentioned. And the word 'hagios/saints' does not count.
Until you understand that the Lord's appearing to gather the church as being a different event from when the Lord physically returns to the earth to end the age, you will be in error regarding end-time events.
Second coming is inferred by you because of lack of understanding that the church cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.
Once again, second coming is misapplied by you. The coming of the Lord, is when He appears in the air and calls up the dead and the living believers. Always keep in mind that the church cannot enter into the time of God's wrath. Without it your lost!
You are coming in with partial information. You're not utilize all of scripture on this subject in order to come to a right conclusion.
When I read that the punishment that brought us peace was upon Christ and that when we believed we were credited with His righteousness and reconciled to God, I don't sweep that under the rug, but apply it. And since God's punishment was placed on Christ, then God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Him. Since God's wrath has been satisfied, then there is no reason for believers in Christ to be exposed to it.
Once again, by your claim above, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God. Regarding this, please provide one place within chapters 6 thru 18, which is the narrative of God's wrath, where the church is even mentioned. And the word 'hagios/saints' does not count.
Until you understand that the Lord's appearing to gather the church as being a different event from when the Lord physically returns to the earth to end the age, you will be in error regarding end-time events.
Isaiah 42:1 (HCSB)
1 “This is My Servant; I strengthen Him, ⌊this is⌋ My Chosen One; I delight in Him. I have put My Spirit on Him; He will bring justice to the nations.
Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV)
4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.
Isaiah 65:22 (NKJV)
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Matthew 24:31 (NIV)
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
2 Thess 2:1 wasn't written to the "remnant of Israel". It was written to a basically Gentile church. And it wasn't referring to the remnant of Israel. Paul clearly said "our being gathered to Him".
You are clearly misreading the verse. Paul said "OUR being gathered to Him". Why would Paul tell a primarily Gentile church about what Jews will experience?
So, prove 2 Thess 2:1 is about Jews only.
[QUORE]We are gone about 7 years before that.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, still waiting for ANY verse that teaches that resurrected and raptured believers are taken up to heaven.
Though when Jesus spoke these words everyone only thought of Jews as "the elect", remember when ALL the gospels were written; somewhere between 60-80 AD. Jesus knew what He was saying, obviously. And He knew when th gospels would be written. To claim Matt 24:31 refers only to Jews is very narrow minded.
The ONLY WAY to prove a pretrib rapture is to quote a verse that describes what you claim; that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
You are clearly misreading the verse. Paul said "OUR being gathered to Him". Why would Paul tell a primarily Gentile church about what Jews will experience?
So, prove 2 Thess 2:1 is about Jews only.
[QUORE]We are gone about 7 years before that.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, still waiting for ANY verse that teaches that resurrected and raptured believers are taken up to heaven.
Though when Jesus spoke these words everyone only thought of Jews as "the elect", remember when ALL the gospels were written; somewhere between 60-80 AD. Jesus knew what He was saying, obviously. And He knew when th gospels would be written. To claim Matt 24:31 refers only to Jews is very narrow minded.
The ONLY WAY to prove a pretrib rapture is to quote a verse that describes what you claim; that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
Hi Runningman,
You are correct in that, the word 'elect' is also used to describe individuals within the church. Below Paul is writing to the Colossians, which were Gentiles.
"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. The word is also used of Israel.
You are correct in that, the word 'elect' is also used to describe individuals within the church. Below Paul is writing to the Colossians, which were Gentiles.
"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. The word is also used of Israel.
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