50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[FreeGrace2]

I hope e.g. does not mind if I field this line drive.

VERY EASY TO FIELD.

Zechariah 14:5 (TLB)
5 You will escape through that valley, for it will reach across to the city gate. Yes, you will escape as your people did long centuries ago from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah, and the Lord my God shall come, and all his saints and angels with him.

Mid-Trib is out, because we know the DAY.

Post-Trib is out, because we know the DAY, the peace treaty will END.

Pre-Trib is the only DATE the RAPTURE can happen when NO ONE WILL KNOW.

Frankly, the verse doesn't address any of your comments.

The bolded underlined words obviously refer to the Second Advent. So that means the post trib view is correct. I saw nothing about the DAY, whatever that means, and nothing about any peace treaty, whether its start or end.

It seems you get quite a "lot" OUT of verses that aren't actually IN the verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Pre-Trib is the only DATE the RAPTURE can happen when NO ONE WILL KNOW.

Matthew 24:36 (TLB)
36 But no one knows the date and hour when the end will be—not even the angels. No, nor even God’s Son. Only the Father knows.

For some reason, none of the above was visible when I clicked on the "reply" button.

Your arguement about "no one will know" can only refer to a specific DAY or HOUR. The Bible says nothing about a specific year.

And once, the tribulation begins, if that can be clearly determined, then the year of the Second Coming can be known.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Holy Spirit HAD been "restraining" the man of sin......but no longer. The wrath of God and the Lamb has now come upon the earth.

There is no evidence of the idea that the Holy Spirit has been or even now is restraining the man of sin. Since the man of sin will be a global world ruler, that means government.

What restrains evil governments are good governments. That's what wars generally do. Fight evil governments. And we've seen a lot of wars involving evil governments; nazis, communists, etc.

But now that the USA has been taken over by Marxists, there is no longer any government that will restrain evil governments.

 

[Ahwatukee]

FreeGrace2 said:
The 10 virgins have NOTHING to do with a rapture. It's a parable. And one that is being "spiritualized" in order to try to defend a pretrib rapture.

If Jesus resurrects/raptures believers and THEN takes them back up to heaven (the big U-turn), there would be a verse that plainly says so.

But, there isn't any such verse. So there's no big U-turn.

Plus, 2 Thess 2:1-3 places the "gathering" or rapture at the 'coming of the Lord', a phrase for the Second Advent.

The big U-Turn?! I would say that your claim is the big-U-turn. For the scripture says that we will meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, if you are saying that we do not go back to the Father's house in heaven, then after we meet the Lord in the air the entire church would be making a u-turn coming back down to the earth. The Lord descending to the atmosphere to come and gather His church and to take them back to the Father's house makes much more sense and is supported by scripture. And before you ask for proof, it has already been give to you, but you reject it because it kills your interpretation.

"But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body."

Notice the reference to the transformation of our bodies, which matches what is the same thing mentioned in I Cor.15:51-53, where our bodies are changed immortal and glorified.

You also need to understand where God's wrath begins, which is at the opening of the first seal and stop moving it around to fit your interpretation.

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
The 10 virgins have NOTHING to do with a rapture. It's a parable. And one that is being "spiritualized" in order to try to defend a pretrib rapture.

Please address my post about 2 Thess 2:1-3. That's the key to the whole thing.

Like I said, it has NOTHING to do with a rapture.

So, since you disagree, please explain how "will be like" is a reference to the rapture?

While you're at it, remember that parables were given to those with ears that aren't hearing. People who weren't interested in what Jesus was saying.

Even Jesus' own disciples didn't understand any of them. Jesus had to explain all of them to His disciples.

So trying to use a parable to illustrate any doctrine is doomed to failure. They weren't meant to be understood.

And, not only that, but the parable of the 10 virgins has to be highly spiritualized to make it a rapture teaching.

When someone spiritualizes any verse or passage, they are able to say whatever they want to say about the verse/passage, and it can't be proven or refuted.

If Jesus resurrects/raptures believers and THEN takes them back up to heaven (the big U-turn), there would be a verse that plainly says so.

But, there isn't any such verse. So there's no big U-turn.

Plus, 2 Thess 2:1-3 places the "gathering" or rapture at the 'coming of the Lord', a phrase for the Second Advent.

I hate to say this but the errors you are making are the result of bush league scholarship. Simply stated you just don't get it. Despite the fact that it's all there. Give it time God willing that lightbulb is going to go off in your head......eventually.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, you're going to have to refresh my memory on your abbreviations. Ancient of Days? What?


I don't see anything here about "AOD". Or about any number of DAYS either.

What I do see is the fact that these believers are still waiting to co-reign with Christ in v.10. That will occur when Jesus returns to earth at the Second Advent.

So you have never heard of in the middle of the 79th week and the Abomination of Desolation. Even mentioned by Jesus in Matt 24?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually the starting point is the "revealing" of the man of sin. This occurs at the very start of the 70th week of Daniel and opening of the first seal of Revelation 6.

The son of perdition is "revealed" on the world political scene (but more importantly to Israel and angels as well) as he makes a 7yr covenant with Israel.

The Holy Spirit HAD been "restraining" the man of sin......but no longer. The wrath of God and the Lamb has now come upon the earth.

The only thing you are given is he will confirm a covenant for 7 years. That could be anything the AOD however will
Be unmistakable

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hope e.g. does not mind if I field this line drive.

VERY EASY TO FIELD.

Zechariah 14:5 (TLB)
5 You will escape through that valley, for it will reach across to the city gate. Yes, you will escape as your people did long centuries ago from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah, and the Lord my God shall come, and all his saints and angels with him.


Mid-Trib is out, because we know the DAY.

Post-Trib is out, because we know the DAY, the peace treaty will END.

Pre-Trib is the only DATE the RAPTURE can happen when NO ONE WILL KNOW.

Matthew 24:36 (TLB)
36 But no one knows the date and hour when the end will be—not even the angels. No, nor even God’s Son. Only the Father knows.

That does not count out mid trib. We have no idea when or what the 7 year covenant made with many is. All we can do is guess

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no evidence of the idea that the Holy Spirit has been or even now is restraining the man of sin. Since the man of sin will be a global world ruler, that means government.

What restrains evil governments are good governments. That's what wars generally do. Fight evil governments. And we've seen a lot of wars involving evil governments; nazis, communists, etc.

But now that the USA has been taken over by Marxists, there is no longer any government that will restrain evil governments.

Believe you me satan is restrained now. When he is losed. The great tribulation will be greater than ever before or after

 

[VCO]

Rev 6:12 And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;

FreeGrace2 said:

What do you mean by "when we see the people return"? Please explain.


Explain who is "receiving rewards".

You want more details, okay. Look in Rev. 6.

Rev 6:12 (NASB77)
And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;

Matthew 24:29 (TLB)
29 "Immediately after the persecution of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give light, and the stars will seem to fall from the heavens, and the powers overshadowing the earth will be convulsed.

WHAT DAYS ? ? ?

Matthew 24:29-31 (HCSB)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken.
30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

That is VERY EARLY IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION. I think that the Rapture could even happen earlier than that, as we are CAUGHT UP, and these COULD BE THE TRIBULATION SAINTS. ISRAEL truly believes in the MESSIAH at the Last minute, and ISRAEL are the ones who respond to the TRUMPET CALL. So the dead in Christ RISE FIRST, (those Old Testament true Believers are included, as they GOD would send the Messiah to pay for their sins.) The those who have TRUSTED and Believe in Jesus, (including the Tribulations Saint of ISRAEL and the Gentile Believers.) THEN the only mortals left, are those who have accepted the Mark of the Beast, except the 144,000 JEWS, who are SEALED to repopulate ISRAEL.

So the Martyred part of ISRAEL will be saved TOO.

Just so you know, SALVATION is NOT A REWARD, it is a FREE GIFT.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

79th week

oops = 70th week!

 

[Ahwatukee]

So you have never heard of in the middle of the 79th week and the Abomination of Desolation. Even mentioned by Jesus in Matt 24?

79th ?

I'm sure that you meant the middle of the 70th week (weeks of years)

 

[FreeGrace2]

The big U-Turn?! I would say that your claim is the big-U-turn.

That is, all right. Just try to deflect your problem and try to make it mine. Won't have it. You simply CANNOT prove that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.

For the scripture says that we will meet the Lord in the air.

Yes, it does. And, NO verse says from the air, resurrected and raptured believers go to heaven.

Therefore, if you are saying that we do not go back to the Father's house in heaven, then after we meet the Lord in the air the entire church would be making a u-turn coming back down to the earth.

Hardly a u-turn. Air surrounds the earth. So it's not much of a u-turn. But if you want to argue that my view has one, why don't you at least ADMIT that your view involves a much BIGGER u-turn, if you want to measure the miles?

The Lord descending to the atmosphere to come and gather His church and to take them back to the Father's house makes much more sense and is supported by scripture.

There you go again. Where OH where is your "supported by scripture"? That's the whole problem with your view. You simply have ZERO support for Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

And before you ask for proof, it has already been give to you

No, it hasn't. What verse describes Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven?

but you reject it because it kills your interpretation.

lol. What kills YOUR view is the total lack of rapture verses describing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

And I don't have an "interpretation". I have an actual verse.

2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The red words in v.1 and v.3 refer to the Second Advent. Prove me wrong.
The blue words in v.1 refer to the rapture/gathering to Him.
The green words in v.3 refer to the Tribulation.

So, the gathering/rapture occurs when Christ returns at the Second Advent, which occurs after Tribulation.

"But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body."

Sure. A reference to the resurrection and rapture of believers. But NO mention of Jesus taking the believers to heaven.

Notice the reference to the transformation of our bodies, which matches what is the same thing mentioned in I Cor.15:51-53, where our bodies are changed immortal and glorified.

Yes, in fact, I did notice that. As well the passage in 1 Thess 4. And NONE of them mentions believers going to heaven.

You also need to understand where God's wrath begins, which is at the opening of the first seal and stop moving it around to fit your interpretation.

That has nothing to do with when Jesus comes to resurrect and rapture all believers.

So you're still stuck without any verse to support your pretrib claim.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

79th ?

I'm sure that you meant the middle of the 70th week (weeks of years)

yes. Since I have gotten my eye surgery my eyesight looking at my phone is poor.. So sometimes I do not catch typos. thanks for catching it!

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The 10 virgins have NOTHING to do with a rapture. It's a parable. And one that is being "spiritualized" in order to try to defend a pretrib rapture.

Please address my post about 2 Thess 2:1-3. That's the key to the whole thing.

I hate to say this but the errors you are making are the result of bush league scholarship.

Well, thank you so much.

Simply stated you just don't get it.

What a hoot. The key is 2 Thess 2:1-3, which YOU don't get, or want to get. That is called DENIAL of God's word.

Despite the fact that it's all there.

Oh sure. Where? You have NO verses that say that Jesus resurrects and raptures believers and takes them to heaven.

Only 1 verse that actually says that would totally vindicate your view. But, you don't have such a verse.

Give it time God willing that lightbulb is going to go off in your head......eventually.

lol. If the Trib occurs during your lifetime, what are you going to do with your doctrine? You know, the one you think I'm denying.

I know what you'll say. That you'll be in heaven. I say at some point you'll have to realize that you are IN the Tribulation.

What will that do to your doctrine?

Now, if I'm wrong, I tell you what. My grin will be as big, if not bigger, than yours in our trip up to heaven.

But if you are wrong, you've got a very dug in doctrine that you are going to have to admit is unbiblical. Will your faith hold out to such a thought?

If I'm wrong, there will be no strain on my faith at all. But if you are wrong, the strain on YOUR faith will be quite severe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you have never heard of in the middle of the 79th week and the Abomination of Desolation. Even mentioned by Jesus in Matt 24?

Of course I have. But having not seen any mention of "abomination of desolation" for quite a while, why would you expect anyone to immediately identify AOD as that?

But thanks for the info.

Oh, how does the AOD effect the rapture, etc?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Believe you me satan is restrained now. When he is losed. The great tribulation will be greater than ever before or after

Nope. Satan is alive and quite well now. In fact, he recently took over the USA by using Marxists. And schools all over have begun using CRT which is the most satanic racist garbage indoctrinations possible.

I can't imagine how any observational believer could think that satan is being restrained now, given all the world wide deception going on. Socialism is on the rise, and all over the world.

You are just kidding yourself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You want more details, okay. Look in Rev. 6.

Rev 6:12 (NASB77)

Matthew 24:29 (TLB)

Matthew 24:29-31 (HCSB)

All this describes the Second Advent of Christ.

That is VERY EARLY IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION. I think that the Rapture could even happen earlier than that, as we are CAUGHT UP, and these COULD BE THE TRIBULATION SAINTS.

Glad you mentioned "caught up". We find "our being gathered to Him" in 2 Thess 2:1, which occurs at "the coming of the Lord", which is the Second Advent. And v.3 specfically mentions that His coming and our gathering won't occur UNTIL the tribulation occurs.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course I have. But having not seen any mention of "abomination of desolation" for quite a while, why would you expect anyone to immediately identify AOD as that?

But thanks for the info.

Oh, how does the AOD effect the rapture, etc?

I can only think of one AOD in prophecy concerning the end times. So forgive me I assumed, which was in error

It has no effect on the rapture. It is an even that happens 3.5 years 1290 days before the return of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope. Satan is alive and quite well now. In fact, he recently took over the USA by using Marxists. And schools all over have begun using CRT which is the most satanic racist garbage indoctrinations possible.

I can't imagine how any observational believer could think that satan is being restrained now, given all the world wide deception going on. Socialism is on the rise, and all over the world.

You are just kidding yourself.

He is bound by what he is able to do.

He is not cast off until Christ returns for 1000 years.

I never said he was dead. Bound means limited. Jesus told peter. Satan wanted to tear you a part. Jesus limited satan to what he can do. He is not free to do whatever he wants.