50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[VCO]

And you say this on what authority?

1 Chron 29.1 The task is great, because this palatial structure is not for man but for the Lord God.

God created man in His own image--not the reverse. God does not have to do things man's way, and in fact He doesn't.

Hos 11.9 For I am God, and not a man—the Holy One among you.

Mark 10.27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

God may have used Jewish weddings as an illustration of what He's going to do for us. But to say, authoritatively, how God will build a mansion is well beyond your right to proclaim.

No, I believe Dwelling Places to be the Correct Translation, but I do not believe it is worth starting an agrument over.

Here is the AUTHORITY from Christ HIMSELF, the eternal GOD among us.

John 14:2-3 (HCSB)
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you.
3 If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.

John 1:1 (HCSB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (HCSB)
14 The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (HCSB)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.







Do you BELIEVE in the HOLY TRINITY?

Do you BELIVE JESUS IS GOD Incarnate?

 

[randyk]

No, I believe Dwelling Places to be the Correct Translation, but I do not believe it is worth starting an agrument over.

Here is the AUTHORITY from Christ HIMSELF, the eternal GOD among us.

John 14:2-3 (HCSB)
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you.
3 If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.

I agree, this is simply a Christian discussion--not a Catholic Inquisition! Nobody's going to Hell in a disagreement over whether Jesus was talking about *preparing* a place or *building* a place. It could be one or the other, or both. This is purely interesting discussion to me--not material to bash anybody over. Thanks.

 

[VCO]

I agree, this is simply a Christian discussion--not a Catholic Inquisition! Nobody's going to Hell in a disagreement over whether Jesus was talking about *preparing* a place or *building* a place. It could be one or the other, or both. This is purely interesting discussion to me--not material to bash anybody over. Thanks.

Do you BELIEVE in the HOLY TRINITY?

Do you BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD Incarnate?

What denomination do you call HOME?


It is not an Inquisition, but it can help us UNDERSTAND YOU.
Right now, NO ONE can understand most of what you say or that it is even Biblical.
It does not COMPUTE!

 

[randyk]

Do you BELIEVE in the HOLY TRINITY?

Do you BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD Incarnate?

What denomination do you call HOME?


It is not an Inquisition, but it can help us UNDERSTAND YOU.
Right now, NO ONE can understand most of what you say.
It does not COMPUTE!

I've sung "Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty, early in the morning my song shall rise to thee. Only thou are holy, there is none beside thee, perfect in power, in love and purity.

Yes, I believe in the Trinity, if you know that song. I sang it repeatedly from the time I learned how to talk.

Largely, the Baptists I run into are like this. I sit down at a coffee bar, and we learn we are both Christians. Suddenly, the Baptist goes in evangelical mode, because he lives and breathes Christianity largely when he is in that mode. I don't know what he does the rest of the time. I've told him I'm a Christian, and he begins with his trained approach--do you know the 4 spiritual laws, do you believe in Jesus' deity, have you accepted Christ into your heart, as your personal savior?

Yes, yes, yes. I don't know what's the matter with Baptists like this--it seems their Christianity is only as deep as a formula, as deep as reaching out to see if someone is truly saved?

One of my close friends I grew up with was a Baptist minister's son, so I don't have any problem with Baptists. It's just that Baptists seem to be "formula" Christians many times. That suggests that they themselves need a deeper form of Christianity, in which they learn discernment, how to talk with and edify other Christians, etc.

Heb 6 suggests that we mature beyond simple formulas, such as teaching about baptism, forgiveness, salvation, etc. The object is to *grow up into Christ,* and not just recite doctrines. I grew up reciting creeds, and it didn't get me very far until I started doing what God was telling me *in my heart* to do on a daily and even on an hourly basis. In every conversation we need to learn how to love and to live in God's Spirit, in the Spirit of Christ. Amen?

I was raised a Lutheran. And it was about at 17 years old that I began to depart from Lutheranism to pursue fellowship with Pentecostals. Because of my background in Lutheran doctrine and in the Scriptures, I was often advanced far beyond the Jesus People crowd. So I'm not a card-carrying Pentecostal. I check my doctrine with the Scriptures, but enjoy the fellowship of all Christians who are following Christ with a whole heart, both Evangelicals and Catholics. But I have to tell the truth.

 

[VCO]

I've sung "Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty, early in the morning my song shall rise to thee. Only thou are holy, there is none beside thee, perfect in power, in love and purity.

Yes, I believe in the Trinity, if you know that song. I sang it repeatedly from the time I learned how to talk.

Largely, the Baptists I run into are like this. I sit down at a coffee bar, and we learn we are both Christians. Suddenly, the Baptist goes in evangelical mode, because he lives and breathes Christianity largely when he is in that mode. I don't know what he does the rest of the time. I've told him I'm a Christian, and he begins with his trained approach--do you know the 4 spiritual laws, do you believe in Jesus' deity, have you accepted Christ into your heart, as your personal savior?

Yes, yes, yes. I don't know what's the matter with Baptists like this--it seems their Christianity is only as deep as a formula, as deep as reaching out to see if someone is truly saved?

One of my close friends I grew up with was a Baptist minister's son, so I don't have any problem with Baptists. It's just that Baptists seem to be "formula" Christians many times. That suggests that they themselves need a deeper form of Christianity, in which they learn discernment, how to talk with and edify other Christians, etc.

Heb 6 suggests that we mature beyond simple formulas, such as teaching about baptism, forgiveness, salvation, etc. The object is to *grow up into Christ,* and not just recite doctrines. I grew up reciting creeds, and it didn't get me very far until I started doing what God was telling me *in my heart* to do on a daily and even on an hourly basis. In every conversation we need to learn how to love and to live in God's Spirit, in the Spirit of Christ. Amen?

I was raised a Lutheran. And it was about at 17 years old that I began to depart from Lutheranism to pursue fellowship with Pentecostals. Because of my background in Lutheran doctrine and in the Scriptures, I was often advanced far beyond the Jesus People crowd. So I'm not a card-carrying Pentecostal. I check my doctrine with the Scriptures, but enjoy the fellowship of all Christians who are following Christ with a whole heart, both Evangelicals and Catholics. But I have to tell the truth.

I asked a 3 simple questions, 2 that would have only required Yes or No answers. And I got THIS. A misleading, almost non responsive reply. You did not answer my questions, just a misleading religious recitel that made it look like you answered it. Singing HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, does not mean YOU BELIEVE IT. And you Gave an Extremely Vague answer about do you Belief JESUS is GOD. And your answer to What Denomination do you call HOME, was EQUALITY VAGUE. So I'm not a card-carrying Pentecostal. I am familiar with Pentecostals, as a VERY GOOD FRIEND was in the Prison Ministry with me, and he was Pentecostal Pastor. So I know your theology, does not match Pastor Jim's. You may go to a Pentecostal Church, but your theology does not match theirs. Here is what your theology looks like to me:
Many today will read a verse or passage of Scripture and then give their own definitions to the words, phrases, or paragraphs, ignoring the context and author’s intent.

You are right, we are finished. I now have to put you on my permanent IGNORE LIST.

 

[Absolutely]

Once end times is framed in the bride and groom dimension, end times is beginning to be understood.

 

[randyk]

Once end times is framed in the bride and groom dimension, end times is beginning to be understood.

I agree with putting the end times in the bride and groom allegory, and since that is how the Bible presents it, it does help our understanding. I just don't believe it in any way proves a Pretrib Rapture. I don't believe God prepares for a marriage the same exact way people do. Obviously, there are some differences.

 

[cv5]

Christ first comes FOR us (gathered in the air).
And then he comes WITH us.....to the earth at the SC.

 

[randyk]

Christ first comes FOR us (gathered in the air).
And then he comes WITH us.....to the earth at the SC.

I've heard that argument. However, we know the departed spirits of Christians are already with Christ, and will come back with him. Those of us who join them immediately after their bodies are given them will join them in returning to earth from heaven. It will all take place in a second of time, so there will be no need of managing time and circumstance. It will be instant.

 

[ewq1938]

Christ first comes FOR us (gathered in the air).
And then he comes WITH us.....to the earth at the SC.

All done on the same day, likely the same hour, maybe the same minute.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I've heard that argument. However, we know the departed spirits of Christians are already with Christ, and will come back with him. Those of us who join them immediately after their bodies are given them will join them in returning to earth from heaven. It will all take place in a second of time, so there will be no need of managing time and circumstance. It will be instant.

Good day, Randyk,

The spirits of those Christian's who have died in Christ are in heaven waiting for the resurrection from that side. When Jesus descends to the atmosphere He will bring with Him those departed spirits and they will be reunited with their immortal and glorified resurrected bodies. Those believers who are still alive when that event takes place, their bodies will be changed immortal and glorified in an instant and caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At that time according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. It's a simple matter of utilizing all of the scriptures to get the full picture and come to a right conclusion.

* Gathering of the church to meet the Lord in the air

* The Lord takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us

* Once in heaven, the Bema Seat Judgment takes place followed by the wedding of the Lamb

* After God's wrath has been completed, the church will follow the Lord out of heaven to the earth to end the age.

 

[randyk]

Good day, Randyk,

The spirits of those Christian's who have died in Christ are in heaven waiting for the resurrection from that side. When Jesus descends to the atmosphere He will bring with Him those departed spirits and they will be reunited with their immortal and glorified resurrected bodies. Those believers who are still alive when that event takes place, their bodies will be changed immortal and glorified in an instant and caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At that time according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. It's a simple matter of utilizing all of the scriptures to get the full picture and come to a right conclusion.

* Gathering of the church to meet the Lord in the air

* The Lord takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us

* Once in heaven, the Bema Seat Judgment takes place followed by the wedding of the Lamb

* After God's wrath has been completed, the church will follow the Lord out of heaven to the earth to end the age.

Good day to you, as well. Please allow me to explain my view, to contrast with your own perspective on this. I also have biblical reasons for seeing things as I do.

I believe that we *all,* dead and living, receive new glorified bodies at the 2nd Coming of Christ, and that we will all receive our new bodies *in heaven.* I believe this because I believe the reason we are caught up to heaven in the 1st place is precisely so that we receive new *heavenly* bodies, as opposed to strictly earthly bodies.

We were created, initially, on the earth, and received strictly earthly bodies. But at the Lord's coming from heaven, we will have to be caught up to heaven to receive new heavenly bodies. That's just how I see it described in the Bible.

So there is no coming of the Lord with departed spirits to earth without bodies. Departed Christians must receive their new bodies *in heaven,* just as Christ begins his descent. And at the same time the living saints on earth are caught up to heaven to receive their new heavenly bodies.

This will not happen unless the Lord 1st resurrects the dead, which simply means the dead spirits in heaven are joined with their new heavenly bodies, which as I said takes place in heaven before the Lord returns. This immortalization event, thus, is a simultaneous event for both dead and living. It is just that the dead must be brought back into living bodies so as not to be left out of the experience.

So when the Lord comes to bring all this about, we are all gathered in heaven to receive new glorified bodies, and not to be taken to some heavenly location to reside in our "mansion." We are merely gathered in heaven so as to return together with the Lord to earth. The purpose is to establish, together with Christ, his glorious reign on the earth. It is to remove from the earth all satanic causes of sin, ie to judge the evil angels and wicked men opposed to the Kingdom of God.

The emphasis is not so much on our return to living on earth as the fact we go with the Lord wherever he goes. If he is in heaven, we go to him in heaven to receive new heavenly bodies. If he descends to earth, we return with him. "So shall we ever be with the Lord." We go with him wherever he goes. The residence we go to is *with him,* wherever he goes.

I'm not saying there is no mansion prepared for us. The "house" is the New Jerusalem, which is in heaven for a thousand years before it descends from heaven to assume its permanent place on the earth. During the Millennium, the glorified saints may rule from heaven, but it will be a rule we establish upon the earth when we return with Christ from heaven.

In other words, we come back to earth at the Lord's coming, but not to live in an earthly house. That house remains in heaven throughout the Millennium, from where we will rule. After establishing our rule on earth, excluding and judging all evil angels, we will likely return with Jesus to heaven to rule with him until the thousand years are over. We will live in the heavenly New Jerusalem until the time comes for it to descend to earth, following the Millennium.

This is how I see it. But it's certainly not a view "set in stone." After many years of looking at this, this is how I look at it *speculatively,* because I really don't know for sure. It's not very clear to me. But I thought I'd share a somewhat different view as an alternative perspective. Take care...

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good day, Randyk,

The spirits of those Christian's who have died in Christ are in heaven waiting for the resurrection from that side. When Jesus descends to the atmosphere He will bring with Him those departed spirits and they will be reunited with their immortal and glorified resurrected bodies. Those believers who are still alive when that event takes place, their bodies will be changed immortal and glorified in an instant and caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At that time according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. It's a simple matter of utilizing all of the scriptures to get the full picture and come to a right conclusion.

* Gathering of the church to meet the Lord in the air

* The Lord takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us

* Once in heaven, the Bema Seat Judgment takes place followed by the wedding of the Lamb

* After God's wrath has been completed, the church will follow the Lord out of heaven to the earth to end the age.

Hello Lucie,

So, what do you disagree with from the above post?

 

[FreeGrace2]

In my fathers house are many buildings.
I go to prepare a PLACE for you.

Since Jesus had NOT yet died and resurrected, He was talking to people who had NOT DIED yet either. When they died, there WAS a place for them in heaven.

Yes you do need to rethink.

You sure do.

 

[VCO]

All done on the same day, likely the same hour, maybe the same minute.

Not at all. There are SEVEN YEARS APART, between the Rapture and the Second Coming after HIS WRATH IS DONE.


Psalm 2:12 (NASB)
12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!


John 3:36 (HCSB)
36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.


1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 (HCSB)
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up as you are already doing.


The RAPTURE happens sometime prior to this event:


Revelation 6:12-17 (HCSB)
12 Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood;
13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”

Revelation 3:10 (NCV)
10 You have obeyed my teaching about not giving up your faith. So I will keep you from the time of trouble that will come to the whole world to test those who live on earth.


OUR HOME IS NO LONGER EARTH, it is now in the New City Jerusalem in HEAVEN.

 

[ewq1938]

Not at all. There are SEVEN YEARS APART, between the Rapture and the Second Coming after HIS WRATH IS DONE.

Nope, scripture places the resurrection and rapture when the second coming commences. I doubt there will be 7 seconds between the events.

 

[VCO]

Nope, scripture places the resurrection and rapture when the second coming commences. I doubt there will be 7 seconds between the events.

Believe that if you want, but that is good way to get left behind, like the Virgins (Church-goers).

REMEMBER HOW THE Parable of the Virgins ENDS.


Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.

In the Mid-Trib and the Post-Trib, that is identified as First time the Antichrist marches into the TEMPLE,
and the End of the Seven Year Peace Treaty.

 

[ewq1938]

Believe that if you want, but that is good way to get left behind, like the Virgins (Church-goers).

It is impossible for those intended to be raptured to miss the rapture. The foolish virgins were never going to be worthy of being raptured so your point is quite moot.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not at all. There are SEVEN YEARS APART, between the Rapture and the Second Coming after HIS WRATH IS DONE.

Could you PLEASE show any verse that says this? That raptured believers are taken to heaven?

Psalm 2:12 (NASB)
12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!


John 3:36 (HCSB)
36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.


1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 (HCSB)
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up as you are already doing.

Nope. None of these verses say that.

The RAPTURE happens sometime prior to this event:


Revelation 6:12-17 (HCSB)
12 Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood;
13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”

Revelation 3:10 (NCV)
10 You have obeyed my teaching about not giving up your faith. So I will keep you from the time of trouble that will come to the whole world to test those who live on earth.

OUR HOME IS NO LONGER EARTH, it is now in the New City Jerusalem in HEAVEN.

Again, none of these verses say that raptured believers are taken to heaven after being raptured.

The claim that the rapture happens sometime prior to Rev 6:12-17 isn't proven or even supported by Rev 3:10.

Rev 3:10 also applied to the Jews in Egypt, so you haven't made a legitimate point yet.

And, 2 Thess 2:1-3 refutes the theory of a pretrib rapture.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The red words refer to the Second Coming of Christ, in v.1 and 3.

The blue words refer to the rapture, which occurs when Christ returns.

The green words refer to the Tribulation and clearly indicate that the "coming of our Lord" and "our being gathered to Him" will NOT COME until the tribulation occurs and the A/C is revealed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Believe that if you want, but that is good way to get left behind, like the Virgins (Church-goers).

The 10 virgins have NOTHING to do with a rapture. It's a parable. And one that is being "spiritualized" in order to try to defend a pretrib rapture.

Please address my post about 2 Thess 2:1-3. That's the key to the whole thing.