Do catholics worship God or the pope?

[Lanolin]

from some accounts here of being raised in lutheran church it isnt all that different to catholics in terms of hypocrisy.

the issue with indulgences is it seems to be a way to earn salvation through paying for it with cash INSTEAD of actually doing the good deeds.

How you got the money seems not to matter. You might have earned it by working yes but you might have stolen it or skimmed it off somewhere else or sold your family home!

 

[Jackson123]

Catholicism, Christianity, and so on.

We have only one God, we can't divide God into two parts, you have half and I have half.

We have the same God.

maybe you think they are wrong ,they think you are wrong.

maybe we are all wrong.

For we hate each other,then We are all wrong.

We don't need to hate each other, but love your enemy.
In order to love your enemy, we have to tell them if they are wrong, catholic pray to Mary, that is wrong.

 

[GodMyFortress]

from some accounts here of being raised in lutheran church it isnt all that different to catholics in terms of hypocrisy.

the issue with indulgences is it seems to be a way to earn salvation through paying for it with cash INSTEAD of actually doing the good deeds.

How you got the money seems not to matter. You might have earned it by working yes but you might have stolen it or skimmed it off somewhere else or sold your family home!

Indulgences have nothing to do with salvation.

 

[Lanolin]

I agree but the catholic church doesnt really know what salvation is and tries to itself minister it instead of people going directily to their saviour Jesus Christ.

so in catholics eyes they are redeeemed by the catholic church, not by Jesus Himself. Its kind of weird.

Its like having a reward and punishment system on top of everything else, as part of their religion. It can only work if this system is not abused, but this isnt the case if you look at history.

 

[GodMyFortress]

I agree but the catholic church doesnt really know what salvation is and tries to itself minister it instead of people going directily to their saviour Jesus Christ.

so in catholics eyes they are redeeemed by the catholic church, not by Jesus Himself. Its kind of weird.

Its like having a reward and punishment system on top of everything else, as part of their religion. It can only work if this system is not abused, but this isnt the case if you look at history.

Catholics believe what the Bible says. There are numerous verses throughout the New Testament telling us we will lose eternal life if we fall into grave unrepentant sin. So Catholics seek God’s forgiveness. Not really sure why that is so offensive to Protestants.

 

[GodMyFortress]

We don't need to hate each other, but love your enemy.
In order to love your enemy, we have to tell them if they are wrong, catholic pray to Mary, that is wrong.

I know you’re a level headed person, why do you have an issue with asking Christians in heaven to pray for us?

 

[Jackson123]

I know you’re a level headed person, why do you have an issue with asking Christians in heaven to pray for us?

My brother, I think we have 2 problem here
1. How do we know they are able to hear us?

2. Catholic not only ask Mary to pray but pray to

This is part of pope pray

"Quote
O Mary, you shine continuously on our journey as a sign of salvation and hope.
We entrust ourselves to you, Health of the Sick.
At the foot of the Cross you participated in Jesus’ pain,
with steadfast faith.
You, Salvation of the Roman People, know what we need.


We are certain that you will provide, so that,

End quote

Example ask Mary pray

Dear Mary, please pray for us

Example pray to

O Mary, I entrust our health to you

 

[GodMyFortress]

My brother, I think we have 2 problem here
1. How do we know they are able to hear us?

2. Catholic not only ask Mary to pray but pray to

This is part of pope pray

"Quote
O Mary, you shine continuously on our journey as a sign of salvation and hope.
We entrust ourselves to you, Health of the Sick.
At the foot of the Cross you participated in Jesus’ pain,
with steadfast faith.
You, Salvation of the Roman People, know what we need.


We are certain that you will provide, so that,

End quote

Example ask Mary pray

Dear Mary, please pray for us

Example pray to

O Mary, I entrust our health to you

I’ll address the prayer you quoted first.

I will have to lookup the verse, but in the Bible Paul calls himself a co-laborer with Christ. Meaning, that he saw himself as a Christian who had a responsibility to bring people closer to God. We know Mary is beloved and close to her Son, and the Pope (in that prayer) trusts that she is still a co-laborer with Christ in the way Paul said he was. And that her prayers to God will be heard. James tells us the prayers of holy Christians are powerful in their effects.

As for the word “pray”, pray simply means to request something.
As an example, “Jackson, I pray that you will listen to me”.
Prayer and worship are not the same thing. Worship is only due to God, no one else.

As for your question about hearing us...if we are as Paul says “one in the Body of Christ” as Christians, then their connection to God keeps them connected to me. Prayer is spiritual, not physical. Those Christians in heaven are spiritual, not physical. There are no dead Christians. Those Christians in heaven are more alive than we’ll ever be in this earth. They have eternal life and are connected with God because they’ve been perfected.

 

[CS1]

As the title says: do catholics worship God or the pope?

Do they allow the pope to come between them and God?

Bible discussion forum is not RCC Bashing sight nor is it one to support the false doctrines of the RCC.

 

[Jackson123]

I’ll address the prayer you quoted first.

I will have to lookup the verse, but in the Bible Paul calls himself a co-laborer with Christ. Meaning, that he saw himself as a Christian who had a responsibility to bring people closer to God. We know Mary is beloved and close to her Son, and the Pope (in that prayer) trusts that she is still a co-laborer with Christ in the way Paul said he was. And that her prayers to God will be heard. James tells us the prayers of holy Christians are powerful in their effects.

As for the word “pray”, pray simply means to request something.
As an example, “Jackson, I pray that you will listen to me”.
Prayer and worship are not the same thing. Worship is only due to God, no one else.

As for your question about hearing us...if we are as Paul says “one in the Body of Christ” as Christians, then their connection to God keeps them connected to me. Prayer is spiritual, not physical. Those Christians in heaven are spiritual, not physical. There are no dead Christians. Those Christians in heaven are more alive than we’ll ever be in this earth. They have eternal life and are connected with God because they’ve been perfected.

Thanks for your friendly response, but if I may, I haven't agree with you.

1. To me, pray is only to God, we may ask to some one but
A. If he still a live.
B. When I asking to other brother, I use normal word, not flowery word, example, please give me a dog, not
Dear Mary, your shine continuously to our journey, I entrust you with my dog.

2. Yes we are one body in Christ, it is figurative. In reality we don't know what happen to us if we not say.
I don't know ho many child you have, what you do for living etc.
my brother, can you imagine if billions people pray to Mary in various place on earth with billions request, can Mary hear and remember it all?

 

[randyk]

I know you believe Luther was correct in his theology, but there is no amount of verbal gymnastics that will get me to think that way. I’ve read the Bible too and I strongly disagree with him on many points. His Protestant version of Christianity is the most fractured religion on the planet. The largest denomination in the US that bears his name ordains homosexuals. No thanks.

I agree on the last point. I left the Lutheran church in my teens because it was spiritually weak and morally compromised. It had turned liberal. I also tried to convince my folks to leave for the same reason. They resisted, but ultimately saw things that made them agree. Instead of quitting the Lutheran Church entirely, they simply switched to a better Lutheran church. There are several Lutheran denominations, some more conservative than others.

I'm not doing "verbal gymnastics" when I quote Paul who said we are justified by faith in Christ, and not by works. Or don't you know what Paul wrote in Romans?

Rom 3.21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

What Paul was clearly saying is that all the works of the Law, no matter how good, were unable to bring eternal justification and eternal life. God commanded, in the OT, these works of the Law to be done. So it wasn't a bad thing. But they were never intended to bring eternal life, but only to prepare the way for Christ to do the same. They showed human inadequacy without Christ.

So I wouldn't at all say that Paul taught that works under the Law were bad--only that they couldn't save. Furthermore, the failure of the Jews to even obey the Law properly showed the inadequacy of the work of the Law in overcoming the condemnation of sin. Nobody could do the works of the Law perfectly enough to be justified apart from Christ's mercy.

So Paul undeniably said that works of the Law fell short in the matter of eternal justification. And Luther was essentially saying the same thing in his own words. The inadequacy of works of the Law = no salvation without going beyond our works to faith in Christ alone.

I would agree with those who say we must perform works, just as God commanded Israel to do works of the Law. Luther also taught the 10 Commandments as an example of our need to do Christian works. But his point was that works were never perfect enough to bring salvation--only faith in Christ's works could do that!

 

[Gideon300]

I’m not sure what each individual catholic thinks or believes but it seems to me much of thier practices are opposite what Jesus taught .

to me the popes role in their faith is no different from Joseph smith and the Mormons . They are replacing Christ with someone else because he is the only mediator between God and man but with Mormonism one has to accept Joseph smith as a prophet in order to hear from God and Catholics really have the pope exalted as if he’s the way to God

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think that many denominations have issues in their doctrine catholics seem also to have some serious issues . If only we would stick to the one God sent and what he said

From my experience, there are many sincere Catholics who are born again and reject the more obvious false Catholic doctrines. I think we will see many Catholics in heaven and we'll be amazed at the number of Protestants who are not born again and miss out. Having said that, I believe that the Catholic organisation (it's not the Church!) is rotten to the core. I also believe that it will merge with Islam and possibly Zionism to form one great world religion. Sceptics take note: there is a religion called Chrislam already. Catholic churches have already invited Muslim clerics to read from the Koran in their meetings. Israel is getting friendly with a number of Muslim nations.

 

[Gideon300]

As the title says: do catholics worship God or the pope?

Do they allow the pope to come between them and God?

One of the pope's titles is "Vicar of Christ". Vicar is derived from vicarious, which means a substitute. So yes, the pope is supposedly between man and God. And the priests likewise. The Anglican church is close to the Catholic church in many ways. Their priests have the title "Vicar".

Sounds terrible. However, many church people treat their pastor as if he were a priest. It may not be formal doctrine, but in practice the Catholic type of hierarchy has not been broken down to any great extent, at least in the Western world. Watchman Nee founded thousands of churches in China, prior to the communist takeover. Because churches functioned truly as a body, not as a one man band, they thrived even when persecuted. A mega church could easily be shut down. "Strike the shepherd and the sheep will scatter." Now if Jesus is the Head of a fellowship, He's already been struck down and rose again. Nothing can bring that congregation down!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

From my experience, there are many sincere Catholics who are born again and reject the more obvious false Catholic doctrines. I think we will see many Catholics in heaven and we'll be amazed at the number of Protestants who are not born again and miss out. Having said that, I believe that the Catholic organisation (it's not the Church!) is rotten to the core. I also believe that it will merge with Islam and possibly Zionism to form one great world religion. Sceptics take note: there is a religion called Chrislam already. Catholic churches have already invited Muslim clerics to read from the Koran in their meetings. Israel is getting friendly with a number of Muslim nations.

“From my experience, there are many sincere Catholics who are born again and reject the more obvious false Catholic doctrines”

I completely agree , I don’t think the label “ catholic” makes or breaks us , nor does the label “ baptist” or “ Protestant” or any other label we actually invent Tom label each denomination . Those types of things aren’t taught or promoted in any way in scripture but denominations resulted from false doctrines creeping in and creating arguments and division within the one church

my personal though is that most “denominations “ have faithful people who seek Gods word and don’t take men’s intercession but seek him for thier own and begin to develop a relationship to him through the gospel they believe and begin to walk in the faith it creates treating each other with love as Jesus has taught us in the gospel

I expect to run into some folks from several denominations , of the good lord sees for to let me into his kingdom eternal

I was speaking of catholic doctrine that parts from scripture , not u like many denominations but salvstion is between the person , and Jesus

 

[GodMyFortress]

Thanks for your friendly response, but if I may, I haven't agree with you.

1. To me, pray is only to God, we may ask to some one but
A. If he still a live.
B. When I asking to other brother, I use normal word, not flowery word, example, please give me a dog, not
Dear Mary, your shine continuously to our journey, I entrust you with my dog.

2. Yes we are one body in Christ, it is figurative. In reality we don't know what happen to us if we not say.
I don't know ho many child you have, what you do for living etc.
my brother, can you imagine if billions people pray to Mary in various place on earth with billions request, can Mary hear and remember it all?

I actually agree with you about the flowery language the Pope used. I’m not particularly a fan of it. My prayers are plain and simple. To someone that’s not Catholic, it looks over the top and it’s easy to misunderstand if you don’t know what he meant by the words he used. So I totally understand why someone that’s non-Catholic or non-Eastern Orthodox could look at that and think it’s strange.

As for the Body of Christ, I do believe Paul meant we’re One. He described us as appendages of one another. This belief goes way way back to early Christianity. I’ve read gravestones from Christians in the 200s AD asking for a departed Christian to pray for us. Clement of Alexandria talked about it 207 AD and the Hermas of Rome spoke of it in 80 AD. I’ve yet to find any writings of early Christians that say they were taught differently.

 

[Jackson123]

As for the Body of Christ, I do believe Paul meant we’re One. He described us as appendages of one another. This belief goes way way back to early Christianity. I’ve read gravestones from Christians in the 200s AD asking for a departed Christian to pray for us. Clement of Alexandria talked about it 207 AD and the Hermas of Rome spoke of it in 80 AD. I’ve yet to find any writings of early Christians that say they were taught differently

We are one is in the sense of unity, not that we know each other or able to hear when we die. If so, we become like God Omni present. I dont think we will become god.
Jesus never tell us to pray to the death, nor apostles

 

[GodMyFortress]

We are one is in the sense of unity, not that we know each other or able to hear when we die. If so, we become like God Omni present. I dont think we will become god.
Jesus never tell us to pray to the death, nor apostles

There is no explicit statement in scripture that tells us that, so you’re absolutely correct about that. But there are no explicit statements in the Bible for a number of topics.

Whether we should baptize infants is good example. You’re forced to read between the lines to determine what you believe about that topic. There is no explicit statement that says definitely what to do. It’s the same with prayer, we know God wants us to pray for others, but it doesn’t say prayer isn’t possible because you’re in heaven.

 

[DeanM]

Can my dead folks hear me or is it just those that the church deem worthy of sainthood that can hear?

 

[Jackson123]

There is no explicit statement in scripture that tells us that, so you’re absolutely correct about that. But there are no explicit statements in the Bible for a number of topics.

Whether we should baptize infants is good example. You’re forced to read between the lines to determine what you believe about that topic. There is no explicit statement that says definitely what to do. It’s the same with prayer, we know God wants us to pray for others, but it doesn’t say prayer isn’t possible because you’re in heaven.

In this case, there is specific teaching about pray by Jesus Himself

Our Father in heaven, Hollow by thy name ......

Pray direct to the Father

Nor Jesus nor apostle teach pray to the death

 

[Lanolin]

Catholics believe what the Bible says. There are numerous verses throughout the New Testament telling us we will lose eternal life if we fall into grave unrepentant sin. So Catholics seek God’s forgiveness. Not really sure why that is so offensive to Protestants.

never said I was offended, not sure what your problem is.
If you want to repent by paying $$$, as indulgences were kind of abused like bribes, then I suppose you could, its up to you.

or you could just say a bunch of hail marys. Although thats not really in the Bible.

Maybe Luther protested because he didnt have enough money to pay his for his indulgences, I am supposing rich people got off easier than poorer people. Or maybe he could see the money wasnt really being used for donating to charities or the charities were making off with it instead of it going to do the work it was meant for.

If you are truly repentent, say you killed someone, wouldnt you first apologise to the victims family, stop hating on them, and tell others not to do it as well. Instead, the way its done in catholic church is, you tell a priest, he gives you 10 hail marys to say, you make a donation to the church fund to buy new pew cushions, and the priest decalres you are forgiven.