Do catholics worship God or the pope?

[GodMyFortress]

I'm not at all confused. I know the history. And I was raised in the Lutheran Church. As you may know, Luther was a Catholic. The primary reason he left that communion was because he was, as a theologian, doing his job. When the Pope suggested the matter be discussed, he was privately planning to burn Luther at the stake. Do you think he didn't know about Catholic teaching? He was a loyal Catholic theologian until they tried to kill him just for doing what his job required of him, and what his conscience encouraged him to do.

Luther would probably be diagnosed with some form of depression and/or bi polar disorder if he was around today. Only someone suffering from a mental condition would worry as much as that man did about his salvation. You immediately can see his issue was not a normal reaction. He found a way out by interpreting the Bible different so his worries faded away.

 

[randyk]

Luther would probably be diagnosed with some form of depression and/or bi polar disorder if he was around today. Only someone suffering from a mental condition would worry as much as that man did about his salvation. You immediately can see his issue was not a normal reaction. He found a way out by interpreting the Bible different so his worries faded away.

What a diversionary comment! So the Pope had an anger issue, an "aggression disorder" because he wanted to burn Luther? That really clears things up!

I'd like to inform you that what Luther went through we should all go through in one way or another. At some point in our life we will have to recognize that we cannot make righteousness happen. There is an independent streak in all of us called the "Sin Nature," and we tend to try to do things on our own, no matter how well-intentioned.

That's what Luther was trying to do, trying to earn his own Salvation, and produce his own righteousness. He wanted to please the Lord, and satisfy his conscience. It wasn't working until he learned to trust in Christ's kindness, in God's love and mercy. We all need to learn that. It wasn't a "disorder!"

 

[randyk]

At some point Luther came to understand that Christ's nature can be imparted to us, the New Birth, helping us to live in relationship with God all the time, having intimate access to God's word that produces righteousness in our life every day. Until we receive that New Nature we tend to live independent of God, and try to do things for God, utterly failing to be like Him, and fail to be His children by nature.

The way to the New Nature is by abandoning the old one entirely, which is what Luther was apparently having to learn. Until he completely gave up on his old nature, he found himself completely incapable of pleasing God for any length of time.

Luther called it "justification by faith alone." But I call it the "Rebirth," or learning to live a life of Faith alone, as opposed to living in our old nature. We basically become New Creatures with a New Nature. The old nature is still with us, but having chosen to abandon it, we can overcome its temptations and impulses every day. We are not perfect, but we are able to get over those imperfections by living in righteousness and in God's love.

 

[GodMyFortress]

What a diversionary comment! So the Pope had an anger issue, an "aggression disorder" because he wanted to burn Luther? That really clears things up!

I'd like to inform you that what Luther went through we should all go through in one way or another. At some point in our life we will have to recognize that we cannot make righteousness happen. There is an independent streak in all of us called the "Sin Nature," and we tend to try to do things on our own, no matter how well-intentioned.

That's what Luther was trying to do, trying to earn his own Salvation, and produce his own righteousness. He wanted to please the Lord, and satisfy his conscience. It wasn't working until he learned to trust in Christ's kindness, in God's love and mercy. We all need to learn that. It wasn't a "disorder!"

Luther could not accept that God forgave his sins when Luther asked for forgiveness. That in itself is insulting to God.

It caused him all sorts of mental anguish and depression. So what did he do? He started looking for a way out of having to be accountable to the Church (Sola Scriptura) and a way to not be held accountable for his sins (Sola Fide). It’s just all very convenient.

You can believe him if you want but he has no credibility with me on matters of establishing doctrine.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

They sing praises to Lucifer.

So where in scriptures were we forewarned about this?

 

[phil36]

Luther could not accept that God forgave his sins when Luther asked for forgiveness. That in itself is insulting to God.

It caused him all sorts of mental anguish and depression. So what did he do? He started looking for a way out of having to be accountable to the Church (Sola Scriptura) and a way to not be held accountable for his sins (Sola Fide). It’s just all very convenient.

You can believe him if you want but he has no credibility with me on matters of establishing doctrine.

Luther was in anguish because he saw that his works could not out-weigh his sin, they could not grow his love or bring him closer to God. God showed him through the scriptures that righteousness was from God and no works of merit or any other could give one a status of being 'right with God' (Justified).

Luther's burden of 'works righteousness' was lifted when he came to see in scripture that righteousness (Justification) came by faith and not by works. When Luther sat under scripture he was freed, when he followed the teachings of those who sat above scripture he was enslaved into despair.

"
Thus I raged with a fierce and troubled conscience. Nevertheless I beat importunately upon Paul at that place, most ardently desiring to know what St Paul wanted. At last, by the mercy of God, meditating day and night I gave heed to the context of the words, namely, “In it the righteousness of God is revealed as it is written, He who through faith is righteous shall live”. There I began to understand that the righteousness of God is that by which the righteous live by a gift of God, namely by faith. And this is the meaning: the righteousness of God is revealed by the gospel, namely, the passive righteousness with which merciful God justifies us by faith, as it is written, “He who through faith is righteous shall live”. Here I felt I was altogether born again and had entered paradise itself through open gates. Quote by Wood
"

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

You know what’s so great about my Church? The only people that are confused by it are the people that aren’t part of it. Catholics know what the official teachings of the Church is worldwide because the doctrines of my faith are accessible to everyone. Only y’all seem confused about our relationships with other religions.

This is what's so great about your Church.

"Mob boss John Gotti will be buried in a Catholic cemetery.

However, Gambino predecessor Paul Castellano was denied burial in a Catholic ceremony and a funeral Mass because of his life of crime. Castellano, killed in December 1985 on Gotti's orders, was buried in a nonsectarian cemetery in Staten Island.

Gotti, responsible for at least five murders during his bloody reign atop the Gambino crime family, will not receive a Mass of Christian burial, said the Rev. Andrew Vaccari, diocesan chancellor. Instead, Vaccari said in a one-sentence statement, "there can be a Mass for the dead sometime after the burial of John Gotti."

Gotti will end up in the family mausoleum. The mausoleum is inside St. John's Cemetery in Queens, where an assortment of Mafia figures found their final resting spots. Those buried at St. John's include Carlo Gambino, Carmine Galante, Vito Genovese and Charles "Lucky" Luciano.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/church-denies-gotti-a-funeral-mass/

 

[DeanM]

So. Luther had mental issues since he didnt go along with the catholic doctrine? Didnt Pelosi say the same thing about conservatives that went against socialist doctrine? Odd isnt it?

 

[GodMyFortress]

Luther was in anguish because he saw that his works could not out-weigh his sin, they could not grow his love or bring him closer to God. God showed him through the scriptures that righteousness was from God and no works of merit or any other could give one a status of being 'right with God' (Justified).

Luther's burden of 'works righteousness' was lifted when he came to see in scripture that righteousness (Justification) came by faith and not by works. When Luther sat under scripture he was freed, when he followed the teachings of those who sat above scripture he was enslaved into despair.

"
Thus I raged with a fierce and troubled conscience. Nevertheless I beat importunately upon Paul at that place, most ardently desiring to know what St Paul wanted. At last, by the mercy of God, meditating day and night I gave heed to the context of the words, namely, “In it the righteousness of God is revealed as it is written, He who through faith is righteous shall live”. There I began to understand that the righteousness of God is that by which the righteous live by a gift of God, namely by faith. And this is the meaning: the righteousness of God is revealed by the gospel, namely, the passive righteousness with which merciful God justifies us by faith, as it is written, “He who through faith is righteous shall live”. Here I felt I was altogether born again and had entered paradise itself through open gates. Quote by Wood
"

Luther also said this:
“Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it, especially since we concede—as we must—that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s Word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?
- Luther’s Sermons on John 16

Luther always had God’s forgiveness while he was still a Catholic. He just couldn’t believe it, so he decided to believe something else. If he didn’t suffer from the bouts of depression he had, I doubt he would of left the Catholic faith.

 

[GodMyFortress]

So. Luther had mental issues since he didnt go along with the catholic doctrine? Didnt Pelosi say the same thing about conservatives that went against socialist doctrine? Odd isnt it?

Luther’s mental issues (depression or whatever it was) drove him to a breaking point that normal people just don’t get to.

Your faith in God has to be really weak for you to not believe God will forgive you when you ask for it. OR his faith was strong but a mental impairment made him paranoid to the point that he had to sit down and rewrite Christianity in order for him to find some solace for his anxiety. I just don’t find him credible.

 

[DeanM]

Luther’s mental issues (depression or whatever it was) drove him to a breaking point that normal people just don’t get to.

Your faith in God has to be really weak for you to not believe God will forgive you when you ask for it. OR his faith was strong but a mental impairment made him paranoid to the point that he had to sit down and rewrite Christianity in order for him to find some solace for his anxiety. I just don’t find him credible.

Were all the reformers bi-polar or just Luther?

 

[GodMyFortress]

This is what's so great about your Church.

"Mob boss John Gotti will be buried in a Catholic cemetery.

However, Gambino predecessor Paul Castellano was denied burial in a Catholic ceremony and a funeral Mass because of his life of crime. Castellano, killed in December 1985 on Gotti's orders, was buried in a nonsectarian cemetery in Staten Island.

Gotti, responsible for at least five murders during his bloody reign atop the Gambino crime family, will not receive a Mass of Christian burial, said the Rev. Andrew Vaccari, diocesan chancellor. Instead, Vaccari said in a one-sentence statement, "there can be a Mass for the dead sometime after the burial of John Gotti."

Gotti will end up in the family mausoleum. The mausoleum is inside St. John's Cemetery in Queens, where an assortment of Mafia figures found their final resting spots. Those buried at St. John's include Carlo Gambino, Carmine Galante, Vito Genovese and Charles "Lucky" Luciano.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/church-denies-gotti-a-funeral-mass/

We can never know for sure if those men sought God’s forgiveness before they died (I doubt they did). If they didn’t, they are most assuredly in hell. From what I can tell, they were Catholics in name only, they weren’t practicing Catholics.

 

[phil36]

Luther also said this:
“Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it, especially since we concede—as we must—that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s Word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?
- Luther’s Sermons on John 16

Luther always had God’s forgiveness while he was still a Catholic. He just couldn’t believe it, so he decided to believe something else. If he didn’t suffer from the bouts of depression he had, I doubt he would of left the Catholic faith.

I caught that. Luther had God's forgiveness whilst he was Roman Catholic.,. because the papacy believes that those who deny it's teachings on Justification are anathema

Council of Trent (Roman Catholic).

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

In other words you are saying once Luther recovered the truth of scripture that Justification is by faith alone, the Roman Catholic church (Pope and Bishops) but themselves above scripture and declared the scriptural teaching anathema.

Thankfully Luther, amongst others freed themselves from the enslavement of self righteousness. The drive to become Holy by their own good deeds showed them even more that it was never enough. That would cause anyone to despair. But:


"the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction" (Roman 3:22).

Such a simple truth can set anyone free from their own self righteousness.

 

[GodMyFortress]

Were all the reformers bi-polar or just Luther?

Luther is the only one that I believe fits that description. Luther’s life is unique in that it is very well documented by himself and others. I remember reading his works while I was still Protestant and thinking he at minimum suffered from significant bouts of depression. I don’t know if he was bi-polar but he did appear to have bouts of mania that bi-polar people have, so it’s possible.

 

[GodMyFortress]

I caught that. Luther had God's forgiveness whilst he was Roman Catholic.,. because the papacy believes that those who deny it's teachings on Justification are anathema

Council of Trent (Roman Catholic).

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

In other words you are saying once Luther recovered the truth of scripture that Justification is by faith alone, the Roman Catholic church (Pope and Bishops) but themselves above scripture and declared the scriptural teaching anathema.

Thankfully Luther, amongst others freed themselves from the enslavement of self righteousness. The drive to become Holy by their own good deeds showed them even more that it was never enough. That would cause anyone to despair. But:


"the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction" (Roman 3:22).

Such a simple truth can set anyone free from their own self righteousness.

Dude, Luther was no Prophet. He never claimed to be. He claimed God guided him but never said God actually told him he was right. Plenty of people make that claim. I’m sorry, but I’m not going to believe the interpretations of some disgruntled 16th century man unless his interpretations are historical Christianity. I find no evidence that was the case.

 

[randyk]

Dude, Luther was no Prophet. He never claimed to be. He claimed God guided him but never said God actually told him he was right. Plenty of people make that claim. I’m sorry, but I’m not going to believe the interpretations of some disgruntled 16th century man unless his interpretations are historical Christianity. I find no evidence that was the case.

Yea, all Protestants--equaling the number of Catholics--would be sorry that you've drunk the kool-aid. Free yourself from the deceptive attempt at Salvation via the Pope, the Catholic Church, and religious tradition.

Your justification comes from *Christ alone.* That is what Luther discovered, and that is what set him free.

What kept him in bondage, and in mental anguish, was the Catholic corruption, and mixed Christian doctrine, that clearly existed at the time. Trying to sell indulgences for a trip to heaven is the worst kind of abuse of people.

And Catholics should never defend themselves by attacking a theologian who was honest enough to stand up to the Pope. They should've accepted the word of their own capable theologian and reformer, Martin Luther.

 

[GodMyFortress]

Yea, all Protestants--equaling the number of Catholics--would be sorry that you've drunk the kool-aid. Free yourself from the deceptive attempt at Salvation via the Pope, the Catholic Church, and religious tradition.

Your justification comes from *Christ alone.* That is what Luther discovered, and that is what set him free.

What kept him in bondage, and in mental anguish, was the Catholic corruption, and mixed Christian doctrine, that clearly existed at the time. Trying to sell indulgences for a trip to heaven is the worst kind of abuse of people.

And Catholics should never defend themselves by attacking a theologian who was honest enough to stand up to the Pope. They should've accepted the word of their own capable theologian and reformer, Martin Luther.

I tell you what, if you can find the names of Christian writers and the name of the Church they belonged to in the early centuries of Christianity, that believed the peculiar solas, eternal security, etc of the reformation...I will join that church today.

That would show me Luther actually taught orthodox Christianity instead of something he made up in the 16th century.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

We can never know for sure if those men sought God’s forgiveness before they died (I doubt they did). If they didn’t, they are most assuredly in hell. From what I can tell, they were Catholics in name only, they weren’t practicing Catholics.

Chelsea Clinton said she is tired of people questioning her family’s faith, adding that she chose her mother’s Methodist faith over her father’s Southern Baptist church after hearing a discussion in her childhood Sunday school class about abortion. “I was raised in a Methodist church and I left the Baptist church before my dad did.

https://baptistnews.com/article/che...esson-made-her-a-former-baptist/#.YLU0R7dKiM8

https://www.sbc.net/resource-library/resolutions/on-president-william-jefferson-clinton/

 

[GodMyFortress]

Chelsea Clinton said she is tired of people questioning her family’s faith, adding that she chose her mother’s Methodist faith over her father’s Southern Baptist church after hearing a discussion in her childhood Sunday school class about abortion. “I was raised in a Methodist church and I left the Baptist church before my dad did.

https://baptistnews.com/article/che...esson-made-her-a-former-baptist/#.YLU0R7dKiM8

https://www.sbc.net/resource-library/resolutions/on-president-william-jefferson-clinton/

I wonder what Methodist Church she belongs to now. The United Methodists that will be ordaining gay ministers or the Global Methodist Church that refuses to go woke.

 

[sgw]

I was raised Catholic. In my 50’s now. Backed away from Catholic Church some years ago. I didn’t feel comfortable putting the Pope on such a high place. We were taught to be ashamed of our sins. Also, we were never encouraged to read the Bible. Never. I see why now- the truth shall set you free. In 321 AD, the Catholic Church, because of the Pope, changed Sabbath from Saturday, the 7th day, to Sunday, the first day. The Bible states plainly in Exodus 20:8-11, to Remember the Sabbath. The seventh day. It was never changed by God to Sunday. That and other pagan rituals.