WE are judged by what we do vs. we are saved by faith alone.

[FreeGrace2]

James makes clear in verse 14 of that same chapter he’s talking about saving faith.

I just explained what he WASN'T. v.18 sums up his point. The ONLY WAY to demonstrate your faith is by your deeds.

Justification is part of salvation. Which is the point of all those verses, justification.

I also explained this. And gave a large number of verses that prove that believer's behavior is seen by others, and we are judged by them. iow, justification by others regarding our faith.

See post #46 for the details.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I just wanted to make one additional comment. I don’t believe we can earn our salvation, that’s a free gift of God.

Yes, that is biblical.

But we can freely choose to lose our salvation by falling into sin.

This is NOT biblical. So, please quote any verse that makes clear that salvation can be lost.

But I'll trump it now, with Jesus' own words in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The only question is WHEN one is given eternal life. And Jesus answered that question in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has (as in current possession) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Therefore, from the MOMENT of saving faith in Christ, the believer HAS eternal life, and shall never perish.

If you still want to try to contradict Jesus about eternal security for possessors of eternal life, go ahead.

Good works are nothing more than us being obedient to what Jesus asked of us. Obedience is part of our “Faith” too.

Not biblical. Works are commanded of those who have believed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are saved by faith, and not by works when we first confess Christ, for that is all we can do for we have not received the Spirit yet.

Actually, WHEN a person believes in Christ, they HAVE the Holy Spirit.

Acts 11-
13 He (Cornelius) told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

This shows that WHEN Cornelius and household believed, they received the Holy Spirit.

Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

But after we receive the Spirit then we have to have works to have faith to stay saved.

Believers receive the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe.

 

[Truth7t7]

Actually, WHEN a person believes in Christ, they HAVE the Holy Spirit.

Acts 11-
13 He (Cornelius) told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

This shows that WHEN Cornelius and household believed, they received the Holy Spirit.

Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?


Believers receive the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[GodMyFortress]

I just explained what he WASN'T. v.18 sums up his point. The ONLY WAY to demonstrate your faith is by your deeds.


I also explained this. And gave a large number of verses that prove that believer's behavior is seen by others, and we are judged by them. iow, justification by others regarding our faith.

See post #46 for the details.

i don’t agree with anything you said.

 

[Jackson123]

However you want to look at the relationship between works and faith, it’s clear both are necessary for salvation. You can’t have faith and live a unrepentant disobedient life and expect to go to heaven.

Depend on what case.
For example on the story of Niah

God told Noah, "I will fold the earth, make an arch to save yourself and your family"

Noah believe/have faith, than he build an arch

What save Noah?
Faith, or work (build an arch is work)

Depend on how you look.

You can say work(build an arch) save noah

But why he build an arch?
Because He believe God information not lie

So, faith or work?

Other case

A man accept Jesus (have faith in Jesus) than he die on the next second, is he save?
He doesn't have time to do the work
I believe he save, because salvation by faith. But I believe real faith produce good work

 

[SophieT]

I agree with you that any sin is sin. Then I ask God’s forgiveness for it. Not really sure why that is not easy to see.

with reference to your post #38 wherein you made this statement:

GodMyFortress said:
If you fall into grave sin, you are no longer righteousness but once you ask forgiveness for your sins and are reconciled with God you can be justified again.

not sure why that was not easy to see

sin is sin. you seem to think there is really bad sin and then sin that is not so bad

let's not play games

 

[SophieT]

SophieT said:
so then you are counting on obedience to justify yourself. obedience to the works you believe are outlined for a Christian

can't see it I guess. (shrugs)

just a little heads up on how sin works. ANY sin makes you unrighteous unless forgiven by our faith in Christ's death in our place

ANY sin. ALL sin, except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, is forgiveable

We don't have a revolving door on our salvation

To clarify on a believer's forgiveness for sin, we don't ask. And the Bible doesn't say that we do. Rather, we confess that sin. 1 John 1:9.

When a believer confesses sin, they are forgiven and cleansed and brought back into fellowship. v.1-7

that is not what Godismyfortress is saying though

not sure why you quoted me?

 

[SophieT]

Um no, he is not talking about works of the mosaic law. I am not sure who taught you that but they myself you, he was talking to gentile believers in a gentile city the works of law were no where in his thinking, vs 11-16 prove he spoke to Gentiles, and he said they were brought to Christ by his blood. Not by any work period, it’s all about the blood, he never stated work of the law. So yes. james would be contradicting paul

you need to remember, paul said we are saved by faith, James accused them of CLAIMIING to have faith. Two totally different things,

exactly. people seem to want to cling desperately to the OT. the OT provides the foundation for an understanding of the new

 

[GodMyFortress]

Depend on what case.
For example on the story of Niah

God told Noah, "I will fold the earth, make an arch to save yourself and your family"

Noah believe/have faith, than he build an arch

What save Noah?
Faith, or work (build an arch is work)

Depend on how you look.

You can say work(build an arch) save noah

But why he build an arch?
Because He believe God information not lie

So, faith or work?

Other case

A man accept Jesus (have faith in Jesus) than he die on the next second, is he save?
He doesn't have time to do the work
I believe he save, because salvation by faith. But I believe real faith produce good work

What is the Christian Faith you have that saves you? Is it only the belief that Christ is God? Or is the entirety of the Christian Faith that also says we need to be obedient to God?

Our Faith that saves us isn’t just belief in God, it’s also the belief that God demands our obedience to Jesus’s commandments.

 

[GodMyFortress]

Um no, he is not talking about works of the mosaic law. I am not sure who taught you that but they myself you, he was talking to gentile believers in a gentile city the works of law were no where in his thinking, vs 11-16 prove he spoke to Gentiles, and he said they were brought to Christ by his blood. Not by any work period, it’s all about the blood, he never stated work of the law. So yes. james would be contradicting paul

you need to remember, paul said we are saved by faith, James accused them of CLAIMIING to have faith. Two totally different things,

In Verse 10 of that same Chapter, Paul says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. To fulfill God’s plan is our entire existence for living.

It makes no sense to say in Verse 9 (as you claim) that we don’t need good works, for him then to tell us we are created for good works and say we are expected to do good works. Good works are part of that Christian Faith we have that saves us.

 

[Jackson123]

What is the Christian Faith you have that saves you? Is it only the belief that Christ is God? Or is the entirety of the Christian Faith that also says we need to be obedient to God?

Our Faith that saves us isn’t just belief in God, it’s also the belief that God demands our obedience to Jesus’s commandments.

Faith cause obey, like what happen to Noah, his faith trigger him to work build an arch and save him from the flood

 

[GodMyFortress]

Faith cause obey, like what happen to Noah, his faith trigger him to work build an arch and save him from the flood

But without his works (obeying God and building the arc) God would of had no reason to believe he had faith. That’s why you need both. Otherwise your faith is really a dead faith.

 

[Jackson123]

But without his works (obeying God and building the arc) God would of had no reason to believe he had faith. That’s why you need both. Otherwise your faith is really a dead faith.

Obey is part of faith, like engine is part of car.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In Verse 10 of that same Chapter, Paul says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. To fulfill God’s plan is our entire existence for living.

I agree

It makes no sense to say in Verse 9 (as you claim) that we don’t need good works, for him then to tell us we are created for good works and say we are expected to do good works. Good works are part of that Christian Faith we have that saves us.

it makes perfect sense

in verse 8 and 9 it tells how we were newly created, by grace through faith.

the outcome of that new birth or salvation is works.

and your wrong, it is not the part that saves us, it’s the result of being saved,

Paul makes it clear in titus 3:5. It is NOT by works of righteousness (good deeds) but by his mercy he saved us.

no Works equals no works.

 

[GodMyFortress]

Obey is part of faith, like engine is part of car.

I’m glad to see that at least one other person recognizes that. Everyone else on here keeps arguing for the position that a Christian doesn’t need obedience to God to be saved.

 

[GodMyFortress]

I agree


it makes perfect sense

in verse 8 and 9 it tells how we were newly created, by grace through faith.

the outcome of that new birth or salvation is works.

and your wrong, it is not the part that saves us, it’s the result of being saved,

Paul makes it clear in titus 3:5. It is NOT by works of righteousness (good deeds) but by his mercy he saved us.

no Works equals no works.

I feel like you and I are sooo close to agreeing with each other but there is a small thing dividing us.

I’m saying that faith and obedience are not separated, John provides a great example:
John Ch 3
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

You can clearly see that obedience and faith are two sides of the same coin. As it pertains to God’s judgment, you can’t have one without the other. That’s why they are both necessary for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
See post #46 for the details.

i don’t agree with anything you said.

I don't want to be wrong any more than you want to be wrong.

So, could you please address my points in post #46 and explain how they are unbiblical.

Thanks.

If I'm wrong, I want to know. If you are wrong, you should want to know.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What is the Christian Faith you have that saves you? Is it only the belief that Christ is God? Or is the entirety of the Christian Faith that also says we need to be obedient to God?

Our Faith that saves us isn’t just belief in God, it’s also the belief that God demands our obedience to Jesus’s commandments.

So you believe that our obedience plus faith saves us? Where do you get that?

Consider this list of verses. They are self explanatory.

Salvation:

Mark 16;16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[GodMyFortress]

So you believe that our obedience plus faith saves us? Where do you get that?

Consider this list of verses. They are self explanatory.

Post 77 explains that pretty well.

I don’t think you are understanding me properly. Every verse that talks about salvation and eternal life as it relates to faith is absolutely true. You absolutely need faith to be saved. But I cannot ignore everything else our scriptures tell us. How many times does Christ tell us we will be cutoff if we’re not obedient?

Romans Ch 2
6 For he will render to every man according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.