Sinful lust or normally functioning hormones?

[1ofthem]

I just wanted to say something in defense of @Subhumanoidal's post.

Sub is not at all saying that it's perfectly fine for people to do whatever they want. His posting history shows that he has a very strong moral code, and what he does understand very well is how things are often handled in the church. His posts like this are a satire of these observations.

I nod my head right along with them because of all the times I've run across attitudes like this in church circles as well.

Here's the point I was getting at... I saw none of the condemning that he posted about on this thread. Unless I totally missed the point of this thread (which is completely possible) it seemed to be asking how to deal with sex drive without letting it become lust.

Didn't see where anyone was condemning or judging anyone as a selfish sinner (I think that is how he put it). I only saw where people were giving Biblical advice on how to deal with it.

Now here is the thing, the scripture teaches us how to deal with it and that is what we have to do.

Do we condemn anyone who is struggling with it...no, all that we can do is give them what the scripture says about dealing with it. That is exactly what I was trying to do and even put myself as an example in one of my posts. Not condemning anyone by any means because I'm sure it is something that we have all struggled with at one time or another.

Sex drive is not something that we need to be focused on if we are single. If we focus on that then it will lead to lust. We also don't need to focus on sex drive in order to be prepared for marriage.

Scripture says marriage is holy and the bed is undefiled. So we know that sex within a marriage is not wrong, but if we are not married then it is not something that we need to focus on as a single person.

I'm just going to cut to the chase with a few examples of how adherence to no sex before marriage seems to run into some serious problems that need to be addressed but WITHOUT changing the rules that sex needs to be contained within marriage.

Let me give you 3 examples from real women in real Christian marriages (2 I knew personally; 1 is from an article I read):

1. A woman who "did everything right" and saved herself for what she thought would be her loving Christian husband (if I remember right, he had waited as well.) Her husband, for whatever reason, had a very aggressive sexual style. He didn't like being loving or sweet or caring. He only liked it when he was basically throwing her around, leaving her feeling sexually assaulted every time.

He was unwilling to go to counseling, as he didn't think he was doing anything wrong -- his style was his style. He had done everything God had asked of him by waiting for marriage, and he now felt he had a right to live out his sex life the way he wanted.

She eventually divorced him, and of course, faced complete condemnation from the church. I understand the passages that were used to "discipline" her and tell her she was committing a terrible sin, but most especially in cases like this, I can't judge the abuse someone else is going through, or what course of action they should take.

2. Similarly, I knew another woman whose man liked to choke her during sex. He wasn't into kissing or cuddling or affection. Rather, he liked seeing her beg and plead for mercy. He had lived a rough life, and had a sexual attraction to violence --it's the only thing that turned him on.

Fortunately, she eventually got away from him. But not without several beatings in the process.

3. A woman whose husband always gets what he wants from sex, then immediately rolls over and falls asleep. He never asks or cares if anything is working for her or not-- he says that as the man, he's the head of the household, and he has the right to lead their life in this area. After all, she is the Godly wife, and her role and Godly duty is to submit.

I apologize that all my examples are of women, because I am NOT AT ALL trying to peg men as always being at fault. However, I'm listing these stories because as a woman, obviously, it's other women who talk to me about their lives. I have had guy friends who have had just as many problems in their relationships as well.

These are the kinds of things people have been talking to me about my entire life, and this is why I've always had such a sorrowful cry out to God as to why there isn't more REAL help for people trapped in these loveless, abusive situations. I know everyone will say to go to counseling, and as much as I dole that advice out myself, I don't know many people whose lives were actually changed or improved because of it.

None of that is acceptable in a marriage. I think that @Live4Him gave an excellent example of how a Biblical marriage is supposed to be. He actually addressed this in his posts using scripture to explain it.

But I think the real question has turned into, "Have you ever seen anything that gave you improper sexual thoughts, how did it affect you, and what are you doing to cope with the results?" I would argue today that EVERYONE has had that experience. I've had people try to get me into watching shows like Game of Thrones and Vikings, and after about 10 minutes of watching, I was just like, how can anyone not be affected by this. I am NOT condemning anyone who does watch, I'm just saying, I knew right away that I couldn't.

Even though I'm a girl, I've always loved super heroes and cartoons, and I was in a store a few years ago and happened to page through a few comics. One of the pages had an ad featuring a woman with a food product that I can't even describe because it was so painfully graphic. Not to mention the drawings in the comic books themselves -- and this is all being marketed to boys who are in their formative years of physical, emotional, and spiritual growth.

I've had to cancel subscriptions to women's magazines because the ads alone (don't even mention the photo stories) were grating away at my conscience. And I am by no means someone who is perfect at filtering out every little image we're being bombarded with on a daily basis -- I just know God has made me more sensitive to more things over the years.

My point is, I think EVERYONE these days sees some sort of version of porn regularly just because of the nature of our modern culture. According to articles I've read, the shows they feature every single day on prime time "family television" would have been considered hardcore, rated X, "black market" porn in the 1950's, so you can imagine what effect it's having. I would argue that absolutely no one is exempt, which is exactly why these conversations are so important.

Yes, and the way you dealt with it is what we should do and encourage others to do. If something is causing problems then we need to turn from it. Pointing this out is not being judgmental or condemning.

At any rate, I just wanted to say that I relate to a lot of @Subhumanoidal's posts like this because they perfectly showcase what I have observed my whole life within the church -- people suffering from seriously harmful everyday occurrences that they are then shamed into silence over, because no one wants to hear about the real problems that are going on (probably because no one has any real, practical answers to give.)

In my experience, all people want to hear is how much you love God and how you're at peace with everything in your life because of that, and any deviation from the "magic formula" will result in swift, though sometimes subtle, condemnation and unspoken excommunication.

And so, I would be willing to be that the good majority of people put on their Sunday morning (or Sabbath Day) masks and carry on, always being obliged to only give the religious audiences the incredibly spiritual testimonies they want to hear, and refuse to acknowledge anything else.

Because if you do, it's all your own fault because you don't have enough faith, you're not believing hard enough, you're not praying enough, you don't know enough Scripture, and you're not following the rules closely enough, because if you did, you'd have the same perfect testimony as they proclaim to have.

Any other answer deems you a "non-Christian," "not really saved," "someone who doesn't really love Jesus," or, another popular put-down, "It must be terrible to be such an unbeliever as you -- no wonder you're suffering."

This is not acceptable way to deal with it, either.

But where was any of these behaviors of not wanting to listen to others struggles or condemning others displayed in this thread.

From what I have read, no one said any of these things or condemned anyone. All I saw was Biblical advice about how to deal with this issue.

 

[Live4Him]

I just wanted to say something in defense of @Subhumanoidal's post.

Hi, seoulsearch.

Well, I trust that you know via our past interactions on this website that I consider you to be my online friend, but what "sub" said is simply indefensible. Anyone who accuses those who offer godly counsel of being Pharisaical ought to hang their own head in shame. How did the Pharisees behave in relation to those with sexual issues? Well, the first example which comes to my mind is the woman caught in the very act of adultery (John 8:1-11). Not only did they apparently behave in a misogynistic manner by only dragging the woman before Jesus (Jewish law called for BOTH the man and woman to be stoned), but they were also a bunch of self-righteous sinners themselves who basically salivated at the opportunity to stone another to death without the slightest tinge of compassion or mercy towards her. You've read enough of my posts on this forum...do I strike you as being a Pharisee? Jesus said that the Pharisees "bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers" (Matt. 23:4). You have no idea how many different women on this forum I've counseled privately here in just the short time that I've been here. Women with all sorts of sexual issues, and I've shown them all nothing but compassion without compromising the word of God at all. And that's just on this forum. I've mentioned more than once on this website that my ex-wife was sexually abused by her own father repeatedly when she was but 5 and 6 years old. I literally spent 18 years trying to not only help her myself, but also taking her to counselors galore. I've also mentioned a past girlfriend of mine who was sexually molested by one of her mother's boyfriends when she was but 4 years old and how she ultimately wound up in a life of prostitution. I compassionately counseled and prayed for her non-stop for the 2 1/2 years that we were together. Would a Pharisee have done the same? I could on and on and on and on, but my desire here isn't to justify myself, but rather to show how unjustifiable "sub's" comment truly was. Anyhow, I see none of the morality that you insist "sub" has in what he said here, nor have I seen it in our only other interaction on this forum.

 

[Live4Him]

None of that is acceptable in a marriage. I think that @Live4Him gave an excellent example of how a Biblical marriage is supposed to be. He actually addressed this in his posts using scripture to explain it.

Well, apparently at least one person here actually read and understood what I said.

I'm thankful for that.

 

[Lynx]

Here's the point I was getting at... I saw none of the condemning that he posted about on this thread. Unless I totally missed the point of this thread (which is completely possible) it seemed to be asking how to deal with sex drive without letting it become lust.

Didn't see where anyone was condemning or judging anyone as a selfish sinner (I think that is how he put it). I only saw where people were giving Biblical advice on how to deal with it.

Yes you did miss the point. The point of this thread is "Why is the church not teaching people better about the proper use of the sex drive, and how can we improve this?" Subhumanoidal was emphasizing and illustrating that point with sarcasm.

Hi, seoulsearch.

Well, I trust that you know via our past interactions on this website that I consider you to be my online friend, but what "sub" said is simply indefensible. Anyone who accuses those who offer godly counsel of being Pharisaical ought to hang their own head in shame.

You missed the point too. Read the first post again, then read Sub's post in context.

 

[cinder]

Here's the point I was getting at... I saw none of the condemning that he posted about on this thread. Unless I totally missed the point of this thread (which is completely possible) it seemed to be asking how to deal with sex drive without letting it become lust.


None of that is acceptable in a marriage. I think that @Live4Him gave an excellent example of how a Biblical marriage is supposed to be. He actually addressed this in his posts using scripture to explain it.



But where was any of these behaviors of not wanting to listen to others struggles or condemning others displayed in this thread.

The middle part is the condemnation we're talking about. The point is that it seems all the church has to say to people who are struggling or find themselves in horribly difficult situations is "oh that's not the way things are supposed to be" (and rarely is anyone disputing that point) but things are that way, so what should the person who has to live with things that are that wrong way actually do and how can they cope and where can they turn to for support instead of being brushed off because the way their life is isn't the way it's supposed to be? And how do they not feel condemned when they get nothing except that the way they or their circumstance are is not acceptable or not the way it should be?

Condemnation also comes when your situation is dismissed / invalidated because it's not the way things are supposed to be and no one cares enough to engage with the way things are and try to help (which I'm sure I can be guilty of because it can be overwhelming to try to deal with other people's major issues).

 

[Live4Him]

You missed the point too. Read the first post again, then read Sub's post in context.

I didn't miss anything.

"The church" is the body of believers, and that includes any Christian who has posted on this thread.

As a devout Christian myself, I've said or done nothing the least bit Pharisaical here.

Instead, I've sought to explain God's design for marriage and how sexual relations ought to properly manifest within the confines of the same. Again, not just as some selfish, carnal lust like @seoulsearch described in her ungodly examples, but rather in a loving manner which focuses on the spouse's spirit and soul as much as it does upon their body. At the same time, I've offered some very REAL examples of things that "drive" peoples' desire for "sex"...such as porn, ungodly music, bombardments of sexual images via TV/movies/etc., and sexual abuses.

If that offends any of you, and apparently it does, then, quite frankly, your problem is with God and not with me.

 

[Live4Him]

The middle part is the condemnation we're talking about. The point is that it seems all the church has to say to people who are struggling or find themselves in horribly difficult situations is "oh that's not the way things are supposed to be" (and rarely is anyone disputing that point) but things are that way, so what should the person who has to live with things that are that wrong way actually do and how can they cope and where can they turn to for support instead of being brushed off because the way their life is isn't the way it's supposed to be? And how do they not feel condemned when they get nothing except that the way they or their circumstance are is not acceptable or not the way it should be?

Condemnation also comes when your situation is dismissed / invalidated because it's not the way things are supposed to be and no one cares enough to engage with the way things are and try to help (which I'm sure I can be guilty of because it can be overwhelming to try to deal with other people's major issues).

Nobody brushed you off.

If anything, you've brushed off those who have actually sought to converse with you on these matters.

Anyhow, I won't infect this thread anymore with godly counsel or genuine concern.

Later...

 

[1ofthem]

Yes you did miss the point. The point of this thread is "Why is the church not teaching people better about the proper use of the sex drive, and how can we improve this?" Subhumanoidal was emphasizing and illustrating that point with sarcasm.

I reread it and it is definitely not asking why is the church not teaching people better about the proper use of the sex drive. Pretty much said Church is not discussing it...so let's discuss it here.

Anyways, maybe you should reread it...Here it is...

I suggested to my friend that this was possibly the most important discussion for Christian singles that churches never have, so let's have it here.

• What's the difference between our sex drives and lust? How do we know when we're crossing the line into sin in our thoughts and attitudes about sex?
• What support can / should be offered for Christian singles when dealing with the frustration of wanting all the benefits of marriage but being unable to find a suitable marriage partner? Should this include some practical reality checks when said singles are being too picky about unimportant things?
• How should a distinction between lust and properly framed sexual desire influence our behavior towards dates and potential dates?

 

[seoulsearch]

Hi, seoulsearch. You've read enough of my posts on this forum...do I strike you as being a Pharisee?

This was my entire reason for defending @Subhumanoidal's post.

Now, he is certainly free to correct me if I'm wrong, but he wasn't calling you or anyone else a Pharisee, and, @1ofthem, he wasn't making excuses for sin.

Rather, he was making a very poignant summary of the state of most churches and the things the leadership would say even though they proclaim to do everything "by the book," with that book, of course, being the Bible.

Sub was not calling you a Pharisee, nor do I see you as one.

Sub was, quite eloquently, making a statement of observation about what many of us (myself at least) have experienced with churches and various Christian circles, and that was the entire point of my (and I think his) post.

But again, I'm hoping he will correct me if I am somehow misspeaking for him.

 

[Lynx]

Nobody brushed you off.

If anything, you've brushed off those who have actually sought to converse with you on these matters.

Anyhow, I won't infect this thread anymore with godly counsel or genuine concern.

Later...

Ha! If there's one thing cinder never, ever, ever does, it is brush off a good conversation.

 

[cinder]

Hi, seoulsearch.

Well, I trust that you know via our past interactions on this website that I consider you to be my online friend, but what "sub" said is simply indefensible. Anyone who accuses those who offer godly counsel of being Pharisaical ought to hang their own head in shame. How did the Pharisees behave in relation to those with sexual issues? Well, the first example which comes to my mind is the woman caught in the very act of adultery (John 8:1-11). Not only did they apparently behave in a misogynistic manner by only dragging the woman before Jesus (Jewish law called for BOTH the man and woman to be stoned), but they were also a bunch of self-righteous sinners themselves who basically salivated at the opportunity to stone another to death without the slightest tinge of compassion or mercy towards her. You've read enough of my posts on this forum...do I strike you as being a Pharisee? Jesus said that the Pharisees "bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers" (Matt. 23:4). You have no idea how many different women on this forum I've counseled privately here in just the short time that I've been here. Women with all sorts of sexual issues, and I've shown them all nothing but compassion without compromising the word of God at all. And that's just on this forum. I've mentioned more than once on this website that my ex-wife was sexually abused by her own father repeatedly when she was but 5 and 6 years old. I literally spent 18 years trying to not only help her myself, but also taking her to counselors galore. I've also mentioned a past girlfriend of mine who was sexually molested by one of her mother's boyfriends when she was but 4 years old and how she ultimately wound up in a life of prostitution. I compassionately counseled and prayed for her non-stop for the 2 1/2 years that we were together. Would a Pharisee have done the same? I could on and on and on and on, but my desire here isn't to justify myself, but rather to show how unjustifiable "sub's" comment truly was. Anyhow, I see none of the morality that you insist "sub" has in what he said here, nor have I seen it in our only other interaction on this forum.

So you think that in a few months on this forum you can judge a short comment by a poster that has been here for years (I've been here what 7 years now and he's been here longer than me). And to judge someone's statement as indefensible when a couple people have expounded on it and defended the idea, instead of trying to understand if they have a point is pretty much exactly what a Pharisee would do. I'm not going to get into how pharisaical (or unwise or mixed motive) a man trying to help poor sexually struggling women (especially one's he's dating) with his great Biblical wisdom and understanding could be; but there are professional standards against counselors dating their current patients for a reason. Not sure that a good heart (which you seem to have at least in part) makes other failings insignificant.

 

[Live4Him]

@seoulsearch

Here's his quote:

And this is why Christians hide their struggles. Everything is a sin. So now if you're single and have a desire for sex you're a selfish sinner.
Sounds very much like what you'd expect to hear a pharisee say.

Ask yourself the following questions:

What is the "this" that he was referring to?

What were the "sounds" that "you'd expect to hear a Pharisee say"?

He made his post right after red x-ing one of my posts.

Anyhow, personally, I couldn't care less. I'm concerned for him and not for myself. God knows that my counsel here is in line with his word, and he also knows the true heartset/mindset behind what I said.

If you have any further comments for me, then please send them to me privately.

I'm officially finished here.

Have a blessed day.

 

[Live4Him]

So you think that in a few months on this forum you can judge a short comment by a poster that has been here for years (I've been here what 7 years now and he's been here longer than me). And to judge someone's statement as indefensible when a couple people have expounded on it and defended the idea, instead of trying to understand if they have a point is pretty much exactly what a Pharisee would do. I'm not going to get into how pharisaical (or unwise or mixed motive) a man trying to help poor sexually struggling women (especially one's he's dating) with his great Biblical wisdom and understanding could be; but there are professional standards against counselors dating their current patients for a reason. Not sure that a good heart (which you seem to have at least in part) makes other failings insignificant.

She wasn't my patient, so this is just more nonsense.

Farewell.

 

[seoulsearch]

@seoulsearch

Here's his quote:



Ask yourself the following questions:

What is the "this" that he was referring to?

What were the "sounds" that "you'd expect to hear a Pharisee say"?

He made his post right after red x-ing one of my posts.

Anyhow, personally, I couldn't care less. I'm concerned for him and not for myself. God knows that my counsel here is in line with his word, and he also knows the true heartset/mindset behind what I said.

If you have any further comments for me, then please send them to me privately.

I'm officially finished here.

Have a blessed day.

I don't have anything further to relate to you about this in particular @Live4Him, and I understand the request that if I did, I should send them privately, which I will abide by.

But I would like to make the general statement that for myself, I didn't see Sub's post as pointing any fingers at anyone here -- I took his post as a general statement about church culture as a whole.

However, if my interpretation is wrong, hopefully he will correct me and put me in my place for speaking out of line.

 

[1ofthem]

The middle part is the condemnation we're talking about. The point is that it seems all the church has to say to people who are struggling or find themselves in horribly difficult situations is "oh that's not the way things are supposed to be" (and rarely is anyone disputing that point) but things are that way, so what should the person who has to live with things that are that wrong way actually do and how can they cope and where can they turn to for support instead of being brushed off because the way their life is isn't the way it's supposed to be? And how do they not feel condemned when they get nothing except that the way they or their circumstance are is not acceptable or not the way it should be?

Condemnation also comes when your situation is dismissed / invalidated because it's not the way things are supposed to be and no one cares enough to engage with the way things are and try to help (which I'm sure I can be guilty of because it can be overwhelming to try to deal with other people's major issues).

The middle part is not condemnation or trying to brush anyone off. The point that I was making is that in order to know what a marriage is supposed to be then we need to discuss the scripture that deals with it. How is this brushing anyone off or trying to make them feel condemned?

Anyways, this thread is pretty hard to follow...You're the OP so I'll ask you....Was it supposed to be about discussing the wrong way that church is dealing with giving counsel on these issues, or was it to discuss the issues here?

We are to be supportive and love and care enough about others to help them find the truth which is contained in scripture. I could listen to others and give them my opinions all day long, but unless I give them the word of God then I am not helping them in anyway.

The only way that any of us can know the truth on this is by understanding the word of God. So yeah, if churches are totally avoiding this topic and brushing people off by not listening to their struggles, or just condemning them, then they are wrong. Churches should be pointing people to and teaching others about how scripture says to deal with these issues.

The other side of that coin, though, is are people willingly to listen to and apply the word of God in their life. If someone uses scripture to teach us what is right and how to avoid struggles, then that is not being judgmental. That is teaching us how to prepare for and be better equipped to deal with these issues.

 

[cinder]

The middle part is not condemnation or trying to brush anyone off. The point that I was making is that in order to know what a marriage is supposed to be then we need to discuss the scripture that deals with it. How is this brushing anyone off or trying to make them feel condemned?

Anyways, this thread is pretty hard to follow...You're the OP so I'll ask you....Was it supposed to be about discussing the wrong way that church is dealing with giving counsel on these issues, or was it to discuss the issues here?

We are to be supportive and love and care enough about others to help them find the truth which is contained in scripture. I could listen to others and give them my opinions all day long, but unless I give them the word of God then I am not helping them in anyway.

The only way that any of us can know the truth on this is by understanding the word of God. So yeah, if churches are totally avoiding this topic and brushing people off by not listening to their struggles, or just condemning them, then they are wrong. Churches should be pointing people to and teaching others about how scripture says to deal with these issues.

The other side of that coin, though, is are people willingly to listen to and apply the word of God in their life. If someone uses scripture to teach us what is right and how to avoid struggles, then that is not being judgmental. That is teaching us how to prepare for and be better equipped to deal with these issues.

In brief the question was, what's the difference between lust and just normal inbuilt sexual desire that's part of being human (and biblically we suppose was part of being human when the command be fruitful and multiply was given before the fall )? Behind the question is a lifetime as a single in church and responses to a recent thread that seemed to equate lust with sexual desire and treat it all as sinful and leave people feeling guilty and sinful for feelings they may have little control over experiencing (such as the day I was at the beach with a couple guy friends, a woman in a small bikini walks by and the guy just out loud prays forgive me Lord (is he really doing something wrong by having an involuntary reaction to someone that walked by? then again, me being a girl, how voluntary is a guy's hormonal reaction to a pretty girl and when does the will start to come in?)) and it may not even be in God's plan to eradicate.

As the conversation (if we can call all the talking past each other we seem to be doing a conversation) continued there seems to be a divide between those who believe we've done our full Christian duty by quoting the Bible at each other and holding forth its design and ideals, and those who agree that Biblical principles are the ideal (no one in this thread has said that lust doesn't exist or that all sexual desire is legitimate and appropriate) but that it can be difficult practically to determine where those lines are and even trying to discuss it and determine the lines causes some people to assume that you are rebellious and looking for a loophole so you can legally disobey God. And this second split is repeated in church so many times that I think it's one of the major factors in my generation abandoning church, because once you're in church for a while you're made to feel like you shouldn't have questions and struggles as a Christian because the Bible has all the answers and you just need to work harder at being more holy. For those of us who are honest and open minded, it's rarely that cut and dried and simple.

 

[Lynx]

I'm still hoping somebody will bring scripture about this topic. Not verses about "lust is bad and we should avoid it," but verses about "the difference between lust and normal sexual attraction" or "how sexual attraction is supposed to work in a proper christian marriage."

I wonder if we should disallow that one small book of the Bible that is never mentioned from the pulpit... That would be too easy.

 

[seoulsearch]

I wonder if we should disallow that one small book of the Bible that is never mentioned from the pulpit... That would be too easy.

I totally agree!

The book of Jude is completely underrated.



Sorry, sorry, I couldn't help it.

I'll just see myself out now...

 

[Lynx]

I totally agree!

The book of Jude is completely underrated.



Sorry, sorry, I couldn't help it.

I'll just see myself out now...

I hereby sentence and condemn you to explain the song of Solomon to every new forum member who asks about it.

 

[seoulsearch]

I hereby sentence and condemn you to explain the song of Solomon to every new forum member who asks about it.

Sheesh.

You might as well just ban me right now.