Sinful lust or normally functioning hormones?

[Dino246]

Lanolin and _____ sitting in a tree,
K-I-S-S-I-N-G...

COMPLETELY inappropriate in this thread!

 

[1ofthem]

And this is why Christians hide their struggles. Everything is a sin. So now if you're single and have a desire for sex you're a selfish sinner.
Sounds very much like what you'd expect to hear a pharisee say.

Yep, you're right on cue....I wondered when someone would come in and tell everyone that it is perfectly fine to just do whatever we want regardless of what scripture says.

No one has condemned anyone here on this thread.

What do you have against using scripture to deal with issues like this?

Seriously you need to check yourself....just saying

 

[Lynx]

Someone here on CC, and I wish I could remember who it was in order to give them proper credit, very aptly pointed out that women in particular (though I know it can apply to any gender,) are expected to go "from virgin to vixen" in the matter of time it takes for the couple to say "I Do." They make their life vows in front of a pastor, then find themselves having private time together, being expected to suddenly know or be able to do anything and everything, and I can't think of a more poignant way to describe this phenomenon.

People are expected to go from NEVER thinking about sex their entire lives except as a passing curiosity (but don't you dare think about it too much or too far,) and then suddenly, marry another human being of a different gender and somehow automatically know what to do and how to make sure everyone involved winds up happy and satisfied -- instantly.

I dunno... I'd be a beginner in this subject myself. I'd find it more disturbing than anything else if she turned out to be an instant expert.

I mean, even if she had been married before, I'd expect a period where we were both uh... learning each other, so to speak... and if she was automatically proficient it would raise more suspicion than gratification.

 

[Dino246]

Lust is not sex drive, and sex drive is not lust.

Sex drive is biological and primarily hormonal. Lust is mental. The sex drive is a God-given inclination. Lust is a sin.

Married persons with no sex drive deprive each other.

Marriage sanctifies the sex drive by making a place for its proper expression. Marriage does not sanctify lust.

 

[Live4Him]

COMPLETELY inappropriate in this thread!

I'll let Lanolin be the judge of that.

If I've unintentionally caused her any offense, then I'll gladly humbly and sincerely apologize.

 

[Live4Him]

And this is why Christians hide their struggles. Everything is a sin. So now if you're single and have a desire for sex you're a selfish sinner.
Sounds very much like what you'd expect to hear a pharisee say.

Actually, your response is precisely what I'd expect from someone who isn't a Christian.

 

[Bellaberry]

Hi, Bellaberry.

First, here is the portion of scripture that I was referring to:

Ephesians chapter 5

[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
[28] So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
[29] For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
[30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
[32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[33] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

God ordained marriage to be a natural reflection of the spiritual union between Christ and the church.

With such being the case, the husband is called to love his wife and give himself for her in the same self-sacrificing way that Christ did for the church. He's also to sanctify and cleanse her with the word of God that she might appear one day as holy and without blemish before the Lord in the same manner in which Christ seeks to do for the church. Furthermore, he's to love his wife as his own body while nourishing her and cherishing her in the same manner in which Christ does for the church.

Let's pause here for a moment...

Does Christ selfishly lust after the church for his own carnal pleasures?

Of course, he doesn't, and neither should any man behave in that manner towards a woman. If that upsets any men here, then take it up with God...the one you claim to belong to and serve.

Moving on to the wife, she is called to submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ.

OF COURSE, this does NOT mean that she should ever submit to anything SINFUL that her husband is doing or attempting to do. I covered this rather extensively in a recent long post that can be read here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/should-women-teach-should-you.198735/#post-4547539

In relation to your question, a wife should also reverence her husband in the same manner in which the church should reverence Christ.

The underlying Greek word which is here (in the opening text) translated as "reverence" is "phobeō" (yes, like in phobia), and here is how it is translated in the KJV Bible:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5399&t=KJV

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to put to flight by terrifying (to scare away)
   1. to put to flight, to flee
   2. to fear, be afraid
      1. to be struck with fear, to be seized with alarm
         1. of those startled by strange sights or occurrences
         2. of those struck with amazement
      2. to fear, be afraid of one
      3. to fear (i.e. hesitate) to do something (for fear of harm)
   3. to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience

In this passage of scripture, the bold-faced definition would apply.

This is God's design for marriage, so I would heartily suggest that any man or woman with a "sex drive" put it in neutral as they concentrate on fulfilling their God-ordained roles within the confines of a marriage that represents Christ and the church to the world.

Thank you for clarifying, I thought it was something synonymous to worship, but that didn't seem quite right.

Blessings 🌻
~Bell

 

[Live4Him]

Thank you for clarifying, I thought it was something synonymous to worship, but that didn't seem quite right.

Blessings 🌻
~Bell

You're welcome.

 

[Live4Him]

I dunno... I'd be a beginner in this subject myself. I'd find it more disturbing than anything else if she turned out to be an instant expert.

I mean, even if she had been married before, I'd expect a period where we were both uh... learning each other, so to speak... and if she was automatically proficient it would raise more suspicion than gratification.

Exactly.

 

[cinder]

And this is why Christians hide their struggles. Everything is a sin. So now if you're single and have a desire for sex you're a selfish sinner.
Sounds very much like what you'd expect to hear a pharisee say.

What Sub said here is kind of exactly the point I was getting at with the topic and the dilemma Christian singles face. The picture we're presented is that we're supposed to have absolutely no interest in sex at all and admitting to any interest or desire even in the context of trying to handle that temptation correctly is to be branded as less spiritual and pursuing sinful things that we need to repent of. And this attitude spills over in many churches that often seem like they're trying to protect us from any mention of the existence of sex or contact with the opposite sex (because they're all just a temptation waiting to happen that we must avoid).

I'd also add that the number one way to set people up to fall into sin from their tempations is to give them no one they can have a real conversation with and get godly advice on the not so clean and pretty aspects of life. I've thought about this (generically these aren't personally my struggles but as culture talks about them more I think about how to respond in a way that's both godly and helpful) but who in church can you go to if:

• You're starting to feel attraction to members of the same sex
• You think you were born in the body of the wrong sex
• You're a pastor or church leader with a porn addiction
• You're seriously dating someone and want to get more physical

Because if we can't have serious, real conversations about this stuff and how to handle it inside the church, conversations that result more in hope and help than a dismissive well you just need to try harder and do better, we end up filling that gap with those voices that don't give any consideration to how faith in Christ should affect those areas of our lives.

 

[Live4Him]

What Sub said here is kind of exactly the point I was getting at with the topic and the dilemma Christian singles face. The picture we're presented is that we're supposed to have absolutely no interest in sex at all and admitting to any interest or desire even in the context of trying to handle that temptation correctly is to be branded as less spiritual and pursuing sinful things that we need to repent of. And this attitude spills over in many churches that often seem like they're trying to protect us from any mention of the existence of sex or contact with the opposite sex (because they're all just a temptation waiting to happen that we must avoid).

I'd also add that the number one way to set people up to fall into sin from their tempations is to give them no one they can have a real conversation with and get godly advice on the not so clean and pretty aspects of life. I've thought about this (generically these aren't personally my struggles but as culture talks about them more I think about how to respond in a way that's both godly and helpful) but who in church can you go to if:

• You're starting to feel attraction to members of the same sex
• You think you were born in the body of the wrong sex
• You're a pastor or church leader with a porn addiction
• You're seriously dating someone and want to get more physical

Because if we can't have serious, real conversations about this stuff and how to handle it inside the church, conversations that result more in hope and help than a dismissive well you just need to try harder and do better, we end up filling that gap with those voices that don't give any consideration to how faith in Christ should affect those areas of our lives.

There's been plenty of "real conversation" and "godly advice" given on this thread already.

Incidentally, I'm a Christian single myself, so any advice that I'm giving to you or others I'm giving to myself as well.

 

[cinder]

There's been plenty of "real conversation" and "godly advice" given on this thread already.

Incidentally, I'm a Christian single myself, so any advice that I'm giving to you or others I'm giving to myself as well.

Correct advice is easy. Giving it in such a way that people who are hurting and struggling will come to you for support and encouragement when they need it to stand strong is another much more difficult thing. But in fairness an internet forum can be a poor medium for judging someone's delivery of advice and counsel in difficult situations in real life, and the little I've read that you shared does indicate that you are extremely serious about obeying God as best you understand his commands no matter the cost to yourself and that is to be commended.

 

[Live4Him]

Correct advice is easy. Giving it in such a way that people who are hurting and struggling will come to you for support and encouragement when they need it to stand strong is another much more difficult thing. But in fairness an internet forum can be a poor medium for judging someone's delivery of advice and counsel in difficult situations in real life, and the little I've read that you shared does indicate that you are extremely serious about obeying God as best you understand his commands no matter the cost to yourself and that is to be commended.

Well, I totally agree with you as far as an internet forum being a poor medium is concerned. Personally, I hate dialoguing (or attempting to) with others via text because it is so lifeless and it is easily misconstrued.

That said and meant, in your OP you mentioned your "biological urges".

Do these "urges" pertain to more than just a female's body?

Are you concerned about their spirits and souls as well?

Aren't these fair questions to ask?

You also never answered my question regarding porn.

Have you ever watched it?

I've already admitted to watching it myself in the past, so I'm not asking to judge you, but rather to potentially help you if you have.

My own life's experiences, which include 32 1/2 years of walking with God through Christ, have shown me that a lot of what we consider "biological" or even "mental" is really spiritual in nature.

For example, we read:

II Corinthians chapter 10

[3] For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
[4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
[5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
[6] And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Paul clearly stated that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. In other words, they are spiritual. Not only this, but, CONTEXTUALLY, he was talking about "imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God", and "every thought". Most people would consider these things to just be "mental", but they're clearly not. There are spiritual forces involved, and that is precisely why we need spiritual weapons to combat against them and to overcome them.

Again, a fruit of the Holy Spirit is temperance or self-control, so is it wrong to try to help someone to manifest that fruit in their life?

Is it equally as wrong to suggest that the opposite of that spiritual fruit is equally spiritual in nature?

Quite frankly, with some here, it certainly seems that they believe it to be so which is troubling, to say the least.

Anyhow, I've said enough here already.

Unless someone wants to acknowledge and address the actual points that I've made here thus far, I see no reason to participate in this thread anymore than I already have.

Have a good night.

 

[Lynx]

Unless someone wants to acknowledge and address the actual points that I've made here thus far, I see no reason to participate in this thread anymore than I already have.

Have a good night.

If you want a point addressed, you address it. If somebody else wants to comment on that point, he comments on it. If nobody has anything to say on that point, nobody else says anything on it. That's how a conversation works.

Who peed in your cheerios? You getting uptight because you think nobody is willing to address a point you think needs to be talked about?

 

[Live4Him]

If you want a point addressed, you address it. If somebody else wants to comment on that point, he comments on it. If nobody has anything to say on that point, nobody else says anything on it. That's how a conversation works.

Who peed in your cheerios? You getting uptight because you think nobody is willing to address a point you think needs to be talked about?

Huh?

Who said anything about me being uptight?

Only you in your totally false misjudgment of me, so you might want to check your own Cheerios.

Perhaps you don't understand the concept of conversation?

It's two (or more) people conversing.

Avoiding what people actually say is fruitless.

That's all that I was actually referring to.

Just for the record.

Good night.

 

[Kireina]

This is my understanding about sex drive...God created/designed our body including our sexuality...so sex drive is a natural thing...but we have to learn how to handle our sex drive...don't allow it to get out of control and control you...and you become slave to it...


I dont really have enough understanding about lust in marriage coz I have no husband and didnt physically sleep with anyone yet...

but during my struggle with porn and masturbation I knew that lusting is a sin...it is a selfish act..focusing to please myself...desiring something that is not mine...fantazising someone that could be somebody's future spouse...

 

[MatthewWestfieldUK]

Few people teach us how to cope. I never told anyone that I had seen porn.

 

[Live4Him]

@cinder

I just reread this thread, and I apparently missed a post the first time around in which another member here seemingly referred to you as being a female.

I was operating under the assumption that you were a male because your profile is inaccessible to me.

Anyhow, if I ignorantly referred to the wrong gender in any of my questions or comments which were directed towards you, then I apologize for that.

My bad.

 

[cinder]

@cinder

I just reread this thread, and I apparently missed a post the first time around in which another member here seemingly referred to you as being a female.

I was operating under the assumption that you were a male because your profile is inaccessible to me.

Anyhow, if I ignorantly referred to the wrong gender in any of my questions or comments which were directed towards you, then I apologize for that.

My bad.

I am female. I think I have security on my profile just so not anyone can access it (but really I couldn't tell you the last time I updated it anyway). And actually some of the responses to this thread had me wondering if the experience of sexuality is something that is vastly different for men and women. But I'm not sure how to test or understand such a theory since it's difficult to understand what an experience that differs from your own is like.

My question throughout the thread has not been "how can I stop my horrible struggle with lust?" but "it seems that there is a failure in Christian teaching about sex that condemns all sexual desire without distinguishing that it's possible and probable that people will legitimately have a desire to experience sex the right way even when their current circumstances don't allow them to fulfill it. How can this be corrected?"

Anyway getting someone's gender wrong (especially me because I've been told b those close to me I think like a guy) is a completely understandable mistake on an internet forum so don't worry about it.

 

[seoulsearch]

And this is why Christians hide their struggles. Everything is a sin. So now if you're single and have a desire for sex you're a selfish sinner. Sounds very much like what you'd expect to hear a pharisee say.

Yep, you're right on cue....I wondered when someone would come in and tell everyone that it is perfectly fine to just do whatever we want regardless of what scripture says.

No one has condemned anyone here on this thread.

What do you have against using scripture to deal with issues like this?

Seriously you need to check yourself....just saying

Actually, your response is precisely what I'd expect from someone who isn't a Christian.

I just wanted to say something in defense of @Subhumanoidal's post.

Sub is not at all saying that it's perfectly fine for people to do whatever they want. His posting history shows that he has a very strong moral code, and what he does understand very well is how things are often handled in the church. His posts like this are a satire of these observations.

I nod my head right along with them because of all the times I've run across attitudes like this in church circles as well.

I'm just going to cut to the chase with a few examples of how adherence to no sex before marriage seems to run into some serious problems that need to be addressed but WITHOUT changing the rules that sex needs to be contained within marriage.

Let me give you 3 examples from real women in real Christian marriages (2 I knew personally; 1 is from an article I read):

1. A woman who "did everything right" and saved herself for what she thought would be her loving Christian husband (if I remember right, he had waited as well.) Her husband, for whatever reason, had a very aggressive sexual style. He didn't like being loving or sweet or caring. He only liked it when he was basically throwing her around, leaving her feeling sexually assaulted every time.

He was unwilling to go to counseling, as he didn't think he was doing anything wrong -- his style was his style. He had done everything God had asked of him by waiting for marriage, and he now felt he had a right to live out his sex life the way he wanted.

She eventually divorced him, and of course, faced complete condemnation from the church. I understand the passages that were used to "discipline" her and tell her she was committing a terrible sin, but most especially in cases like this, I can't judge the abuse someone else is going through, or what course of action they should take.

2. Similarly, I knew another woman whose man liked to choke her during sex. He wasn't into kissing or cuddling or affection. Rather, he liked seeing her beg and plead for mercy. He had lived a rough life, and had a sexual attraction to violence --it's the only thing that turned him on.

Fortunately, she eventually got away from him. But not without several beatings in the process.

3. A woman whose husband always gets what he wants from sex, then immediately rolls over and falls asleep. He never asks or cares if anything is working for her or not-- he says that as the man, he's the head of the household, and he has the right to lead their life in this area. After all, she is the Godly wife, and her role and Godly duty is to submit.

I apologize that all my examples are of women, because I am NOT AT ALL trying to peg men as always being at fault. However, I'm listing these stories because as a woman, obviously, it's other women who talk to me about their lives. I have had guy friends who have had just as many problems in their relationships as well.

These are the kinds of things people have been talking to me about my entire life, and this is why I've always had such a sorrowful cry out to God as to why there isn't more REAL help for people trapped in these loveless, abusive situations. I know everyone will say to go to counseling, and as much as I dole that advice out myself, I don't know many people whose lives were actually changed or improved because of it.

@Live4Him -- I know you always ask the question of whether or not someone has looked at porn and of course, it's a perfectly valid question.

But I think the real question has turned into, "Have you ever seen anything that gave you improper sexual thoughts, how did it affect you, and what are you doing to cope with the results?" I would argue today that EVERYONE has had that experience. I've had people try to get me into watching shows like Game of Thrones and Vikings, and after about 10 minutes of watching, I was just like, how can anyone not be affected by this. I am NOT condemning anyone who does watch, I'm just saying, I knew right away that I couldn't.

Even though I'm a girl, I've always loved super heroes and cartoons, and I was in a store a few years ago and happened to page through a few comics. One of the pages had an ad featuring a woman with a food product that I can't even describe because it was so painfully graphic. Not to mention the drawings in the comic books themselves -- and this is all being marketed to boys who are in their formative years of physical, emotional, and spiritual growth.

I've had to cancel subscriptions to women's magazines because the ads alone (don't even mention the photo stories) were grating away at my conscience. And I am by no means someone who is perfect at filtering out every little image we're being bombarded with on a daily basis -- I just know God has made me more sensitive to more things over the years.

My point is, I think EVERYONE these days sees some sort of version of porn regularly just because of the nature of our modern culture. According to articles I've read, the shows they feature every single day on prime time "family television" would have been considered hardcore, rated X, "black market" porn in the 1950's, so you can imagine what effect it's having. I would argue that absolutely no one is exempt, which is exactly why these conversations are so important.

At any rate, I just wanted to say that I relate to a lot of @Subhumanoidal's posts like this because they perfectly showcase what I have observed my whole life within the church -- people suffering from seriously harmful everyday occurrences that they are then shamed into silence over, because no one wants to hear about the real problems that are going on (probably because no one has any real, practical answers to give.)

In my experience, all people want to hear is how much you love God and how you're at peace with everything in your life because of that, and any deviation from the "magic formula" will result in swift, though sometimes subtle, condemnation and unspoken excommunication.

And so, I would be willing to be that the good majority of people put on their Sunday morning (or Sabbath Day) masks and carry on, always being obliged to only give the religious audiences the incredibly spiritual testimonies they want to hear, and refuse to acknowledge anything else.

Because if you do, it's all your own fault because you don't have enough faith, you're not believing hard enough, you're not praying enough, you don't know enough Scripture, and you're not following the rules closely enough, because if you did, you'd have the same perfect testimony as they proclaim to have.

Any other answer deems you a "non-Christian," "not really saved," "someone who doesn't really love Jesus," or, another popular put-down, "It must be terrible to be such an unbeliever as you -- no wonder you're suffering."