50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Hi John832,
The answer to "If there is a rapture, why does the Church go to a Place of Safety" is that, the woman of Rev.12 is not the church.
The woman is said to be clothed with the sun, with moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars. In Genesis 37:9-10, God used the exact same symbols of the sun, moon and stars:
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Then Joseph had another dream and told it to his brothers. “Look,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
He told his father and brothers, but his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream that you have had? Will your mother and brothers and I actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”
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Sun = Jacob
Moon = Wife/wives
Eleven Stars = Eleven of the twelve tribes and Joseph who had the dream makes twelve
God used the same symbols in Rev.12 to reveal to the reader that the woman represents the nation Israel. In addition, the last time the word ekklesia translated as church is used is at the very end of Rev.3, then it is never used again until Rev.22:16. Reason being is that Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered which is why we never see the word 'church' again. From then on the word hagios translated as saints is used, which is representing the saints who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17
First I would say that, it is not a matter of 'if' there is a gathering/rapture, but 'when,' as we have the scriptures that demonstrate that the living church will indeed be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air at the time of the resurrection of the dead in Christ. The reason that they will be changed and caught up, is because they will not be dead in order to be resurrected. And so they will simply be changed/transformed on the spot and caught up with those who will have just resurrected from the dead. At that moment the entire church, from beginning to end, will be present in the air, where according to the promise in John 14:1-3, will be taken back to the Father's house to those places that the Lord went to prepare for us.
Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth is the result of the seventh trumpet/3rd woe.
"Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”
After the male child is caught up to God and His throne (without being devoured/killed), the dragon/Satan goes after the woman/Israel and sends a flood/army after Israel who flees into the wilderness where she will be cared for by God during the 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. This fleeing is synonymous with Matt.24:15-22, where Jesus says:
"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
We know from Daniel 9:27, which is what Jesus was quoting from, that the abomination that causes the desolation/fleeing is set up in the temple in the middle of that seven years. This is the time of Jacobs trouble. As I said, the church is nowhere mentioned in Rev.12 and in fact is never mentioned within the narrative of God's time of wrath.
Another reason that the church cannot be the woman in Rev.12, is because this takes place at the seventh trumpet, which would put the church on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which believers in the church are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Many claim that the church will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, but will be protected. However, even if that was the case, the earth will be no place to live during those times, because God will be decimating the population and dismantling all human government. There would be no kind of life to live during the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses are going to bring.
I would suggest that you to read Genesis 37:9-10 in relation to the woman of Rev.12, as well as to Israel's fleeing in Matt.24:15-22.
In the above scripture, Jesus is warning his disciples and therefore all believers, to always be watching and remaining faithful, so that they will not be willfully living according to the sinful nature when He comes to gather His church, otherwise that day will close on them like a trap, meaning that they will not be gathered and will be trapped during the time of God's wrath which will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
That is a pretty accurate chart, with one exception, which is that 536 BC to rebuild and restore Jerusalem does not work out mathematically according to the time when the Messiah was cut off.
If we use 536 as the starting point to restore and rebuild Jerusalem it does not add up to 30 AD:
7 sevens (49 years) + 62 sevens (434 years) = 483 years
536 BC - 483 years = 53 BC - This would put Christ crucified in the ballpark of 53 BC, which is before Christ was born and at least 90 years too soon.
The correct place to begin the restore and rebuilding of Jerusalem is found in Nehemiah, where he requested of King Artaxerxes to go and rebuild Jerusalem, which took place in 446 BC. The issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, are those letters from the king to give to Nehemiah safe passage through the Trans-Euphrates and letters to gather wood from the kings forest for the lumber for the rebuilding.
446 BC - 483 (69 sevens) = 37 AD (Messiah cut off)
When we take into consideration for the calendar changes, Nehemiah's request to rebuild and restore Jerusalem fits the timeframe of the end of the 69 sevens which is when Christ was crucified.
To start at 536 BC and subtract 483 years and come up with 30 AD must be that new math
I agree with your comment. How on earth can people read into that verse in Rev. 12, the CHURCH. It is ISRAEL that HE is talking about. That same kind of False logic, is how some people READ IN that, the KINGDOM is a continuation of the Church. NOT!
It is all about ISRAEL.
This is the 1000 Year Millennial KINGDOM:
Zechariah 14:16-19 (HCSB)
16 Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
17 Should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, rain will not fall on them.
18 And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter, then rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague the LORD inflicts on the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
All the nations will Worship and Celebrate the Festival of Booths. What most Christians do not realize is there is a MANDATORY TWO VISITS to the Fourth TEMPLE that Christ HIMSELF will build. IT IS GOING TO BE A JEWISH KINGDOM THAT CHRIST WILL ESTABLISH.
That REQUIREMENT is why I think this additional farm land will be CREATED.
Zechariah 14:8-10 (HCSB)
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
9 On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
10 All the land from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem will be changed into a plain. But ⌊Jerusalem⌋ will be raised up and will remain on its site from the Benjamin Gate to the place of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses.
Geba was just a few miles Northeast of Jerusalem, and Rimmon was about a 100 miles due west of the southern end of the DEAD SEA.
Most of the Mortal Survivors, I think, will want to move to Israel in order to fulfill the every year requirement of Festival of Booths.
You know I cannot figure out WHY the CHURCH decided NOT TO CELEBRATE the FEASTS OF ISRAEL. Christ is the FULFILLMENT OF ALL 7 Feasts of ISRAEL.
https://www.levitt.tv/media/series/DSFI
That is a pretty accurate chart, with one exception, which is that 536 BC to rebuild and restore Jerusalem does not work out mathematically according to the time when the Messiah was cut off.
If we use 536 as the starting point to restore and rebuild Jerusalem it does not add up to 30 AD:
7 sevens (49 years) + 62 sevens (434 years) = 483 years
536 BC - 483 years = 53 BC - This would put Christ crucified in the ballpark of 53 BC, which is before Christ was born and at least 90 years too soon.
The correct place to begin the restore and rebuilding of Jerusalem is found in Nehemiah, where he requested of King Artaxerxes to go and rebuild Jerusalem, which took place in 446 BC. The issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, are those letters from the king to give to Nehemiah safe passage through the Trans-Euphrates and letters to gather wood from the kings forest for the lumber for the rebuilding.
446 BC - 483 (69 sevens) = 37 AD (Messiah cut off)
When we take into consideration for the calendar changes, Nehemiah's request to rebuild and restore Jerusalem fits the timeframe of the end of the 69 sevens which is when Christ was crucified.
To start at 536 BC and subtract 483 years and come up with 30 AD must be that new math
The Chart begins as 604 BC, not at 536 BC, and remember they are years by the Jewish Calendar.
It doesn't matter. 483 years is 483 years, i.e. 360 day years. Nehemiah is where the the issuing of the decree and the rebuilding of Jerusalem took place, which was in 446 BC, not during the time of Cyrus.
Your chart has the seven 'sevens' (49 years) beginning at 536 BC, not 604, which is the starting point of the prophecy. 604 BC would put it even farther out.
Daniel 9:24 (NASB)
24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
There were two decrees:
Quote:
9:24-26 Seventy weeks... from... until. These are weeks of years, whereas weeks of days are described in a different way (10:2, 3). The time spans from Artaxerxes’s decree to rebuild Jerusalem, c. 445 b.c. (Neh. 2:1-8), to the Messiah’s kingdom. This panorama includes: (1) seven weeks or forty-nine years, possibly closing Nehemiah’s career in the rebuilding of the “street and wall,” as well as the end of the ministry of Malachi and the close of the OT; (2) sixty-two weeks or 434 more years for a total of 483 years to the First Advent of Messiah.
The MacArthur Bible Commentary.
:END QUOTE.
QUOTE:
The Fulfillment of the 70 Weeks
Gabriel said the prophetic clock would start at the time that a decree was issued to rebuild Jerusalem. From the date of that decree to the time of the Messiah would be 483 years. We know from history that the command to “restore and rebuild Jerusalem” was given by King Artaxerxes of Persia c. 445 B.C. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8).
The first unit of 49 years (seven “sevens”) covers the time that it took to rebuild Jerusalem, “with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble” (Daniel 9:25). This rebuilding is chronicled in the book of Nehemiah.
Using the Jewish custom of a 360-day year, 483 years after 445 B.C. places us at A.D. 32, which would coincide with Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:1-9). The prophecy in Daniel 9 specifies that after the completion of the 483 years, “the Anointed One will be cut off” (verse 26). This was fulfilled when Jesus was crucified.
Daniel 9:26 continues with a prediction that, after the Messiah is killed, “the people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.” This was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The “ruler who will come” is a reference to the Antichrist, who, it seems, will have some connection with Rome, since it was the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem.
The Final Week of the 70 Weeks
Of the 70 “sevens,” 69 have been fulfilled in history. This leaves one more “seven” yet to be fulfilled. Most scholars believe that we are now living in a huge gap between the 69th week and the 70th week. The prophetic clock has been paused, as it were. The final “seven” of Daniel is what we usually call the tribulation period.
Daniel’s prophecy reveals some of the actions of the Antichrist, the “ruler who will come.” Verse 27 says, “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’” However, “in the middle of the ‘seven,’ . . . he will set up an abomination that causes desolation” in the temple. Jesus warned of this event in Matthew 24:15. After the Antichrist breaks the covenant with Israel, a time of “great tribulation” begins (Matthew 24:21, NKJV).
Daniel also predicts that the Antichrist will face judgment. He only rules “until the end that is decreed is poured out on him” (Daniel 9:27). God will only allow evil to go so far, and the judgment the Antichrist will face has already been planned out.
https://www.gotquestions.org/seventy-weeks.html
:END QUOTE.
Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?
Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.
If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written
(Four hundred and ninety years), simple
Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.
Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;
Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.
Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weekswere fulfilled.
Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal future weeks or 490 days.
When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period.
62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the Antichrist who stops the building.
The 70th literal week will see the antichrist revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.
The 3.5 year tribulation starts
Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The world's population clock stands right this minute at nearly
7.9 billion ppl!
If a pre trib catching away happens it will be such a small event that will be explained away by earthly powers that be.
I'm leaning to mid trib bc he only promised to keep us from GOD'S WRATH...( I could be wrong) not AC'S persecution of the saints.
When the event happens,only lukewarm or ppl raised to know but didn't follow will witness to those left.
I used to believe pre but not anymore.
We must suffer as Jesus suffered.....
7.9 billion ppl!
If a pre trib catching away happens it will be such a small event that will be explained away by earthly powers that be.
I'm leaning to mid trib bc he only promised to keep us from GOD'S WRATH...( I could be wrong) not AC'S persecution of the saints.
When the event happens,only lukewarm or ppl raised to know but didn't follow will witness to those left.
I used to believe pre but not anymore.
We must suffer as Jesus suffered.....
So those in communist countries tortured for christ need more suffering in the trib?.
Forming views from an earthly standpoint is error.
Most all believers that will be raptured go through enough suffering.
But mid trib when played out does not fit.
Mainly because the word says every man, woman, child takes the mark.
So those that miss the pretrib rapture are beheaded....or tirn to the devil.
Lot and noah were both used by Jesus to illustrate the pretrib rapture
Neither had some mid trib escape.
Both were gathered pretrib.
Pretrib rapture fits with beautiful harmony.
The 10 virgin parable as well as the one taken/left are both illustrated by Jesus as pretrib dynamics.
Pretrib is solid and easy to defend.
The event that totally blows Mid-Trib and Post-Trib out of the saddle, is when the Antichrist signs the Peace Treaty with ISRAEL.
From that Day On, the earth with man incontrol is NUMBERED TO THE DAY. We all will know what Day is exactly Mid-Trib,
and which day is the end of that TREATY, when CHRIST COMES BACK TO SET UP THE HIS MILLENNIAL KINGDOM.
Believing in either of them, you make ONE PROPHECY, absolutely a lie. ALL PROPHECIES WILL COME TRUE IN MY BIBLE.
Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.
Son of Man comes to snatch HIS BRIDE AWAY.
IN A TRADITIONAL JEWISH WEDDING:
The Bridegroom comes at Night to steal HIS BRIDE AWAY, stops short of the HER house,
and send a representative to call HER out of the old dwelling place. The Archangel has been CHOSEN to do that very thing.
Traditional the Bridegroom takes HIS BRIDE to HIS FATHER's HOUSE, for the Wedding,
for the time IN A PLACE HE HAS PREPARED FOR HER,
and the first Wedding Feast is held also IN THE FATHER's HOUSE,
and second Wedding Feast can be held at the old dwelling place, for those that could not attend the WEDDING.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (ESV)
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Therefore, the only choice is PRE-TRIB, for the prophecy in Mat. 25:13, to HAVE EVERYONE OF US, to be absolutely TRUE.
Revelation 19:9 (NJB)
9 The angel said, ‘Write this, “Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb,”
'and he added, ‘These words of God are true.'
That is your error Gardenias! It is because Jesus suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer satisfying it completely, is the reason why believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.
Also, a mid-tribulation gathering of the church cannot be, because God's wrath will have been well under way by that time.
Jesus as the Lamb, is the One opening the seals, which means that He is responsible for the fatalities resulting from all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
The trials and persecutions that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him, come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness in the spiritual realm. God's wrath is different from this in that it will be wrath directly from God, which again, we believers are not appointed to suffer.
Before the Lord made His promise of going to prepare places for us in the Father's house, He said "Let not your hearts be troubled." Well, they certainly would be troubled if the Lord was first going to send His bride through His wrath prior to coming back to take her to the Father's house.
Paul also called the promise of our being gather "the blessed hope." I certainly would be no blessed hope if we were to go through the horrors of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
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"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words."
Now about the times and seasons, brothers, (regarding the gathering above) we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord (the time of God's wrath) will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.
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The scripture above states that destruction will come upon unbelievers and they will not escape, which is referring to the time of God's wrath. Then Paul says "But you, brothers" which would infer the opposite of not escaping, i.e. you brothers will escape by being gathered. Why? Because we do not belong to the darkness or to the night, which is figuratively representing the time of God's wrath.
There is no honor in going through the wrath of God. Those who do go through it, will have not been in a ready state to be gathered
There would be no reason to comfort each other with those words of being gathered, if in fact believers within the church were to first go through God's wrath! What benefit would there be between believers and unbelievers if we were to go through the same wrath of God as them?
God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.
The Lord will keep His promise to come and gather us and take us back to the Father's house before He begins to pour out His wrath, which again consists of all of the seals, trumpet, bowls and the plagues that the two witnesses will bring upon the earth.
Hi!
So as it is there will not be a deception by the AC for 31/2 yrs of peace and prosperity to deceive even the elect? Then God's wrath begins @ the half mark with his wrath against the ungodly and AC. The deception will be when AC tries to force mark on ppl,is this wrong? Jesus gathers his bride,and the wrath of God starts? I do not understand the word rapture difference between second coming,I guess.
^
" 9 ... whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia] is after [/according to] the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness unto them that..." 2Th2:9a-10a... (correlating with other passages)...
... and that is at the START of the future [7] Trib yrs... not at its MIDDLE like 2:4 occurs.
" 9 ... whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia] is after [/according to] the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness unto them that..." 2Th2:9a-10a... (correlating with other passages)...
... and that is at the START of the future [7] Trib yrs... not at its MIDDLE like 2:4 occurs.
Ppl are acting like trib is here now bc of covid and middle east issues. I do not believe we suffer the wrath either bc Jesus took that cup for us!
Wondering if the better issue toady is to study on how to walk and live like Jesus to plz the Father,instead of focusing on one event.
Can we say we have done ALL we can to be clothed in his righteousness and brought flesh under subjection to the Spirit? JAT!
Wondering if the better issue toady is to study on how to walk and live like Jesus to plz the Father,instead of focusing on one event.
Can we say we have done ALL we can to be clothed in his righteousness and brought flesh under subjection to the Spirit? JAT!