Catholics are the "new Black" (and related concerns)

[TheIndianGirl]

Catholics are Christians. I believe I have experienced the Holy Spirit in many Catholic cathedrals I have visited (experienced though the sense of peace and solemness). I think we sometimes need to disconnect the bureaucracy that is RCC leadership from the local/individual cathedral and priest ( which i admit may be a mixed bag).

 

[GaryA]

You either have no idea what the word mediator means or you are being intellectually dishonest.

A mediator is a go-between. Jesus is our go-between (mediator) for us, the father, and the Holy Spirit. That has always been what mediator means. Mediator means “go-between” in Greek and English.

God clearly uses us as mediators, the biblical evidence of that in the New Testament is undeniable. You can’t refute any example I gave you. In every example, God declines to do something directly himself and used a mediator. It’s pleasing to God.

Go ahead - believe what you want to believe - your mind is fixed - you will understand better later...

 

[GaryA]

Catholics are Christians.

A Catholic is a [real] Christian [only] if they are born-again (no exceptions); however, it is highly unlikely that they can be born-again if they subscribe to what the RCC teaches - because, they are putting their faith in things other than Jesus alone.

They must let go of the RCC and trust in Christ alone.

 

[GodMyFortress]

"To each his own..."

You’re just a dishonest person. The Greek word build in Matt 16:18 is οἰκοδομήσω (literally meaning “I will build”). Literally no Bible translation on earth translates that word as “I will grow through edification". None. Because that’s not what Jesus said.

 

[GodMyFortress]

Go ahead - believe what you want to believe - your mind is fixed - you will understand better later...

Please tell me, when did the word mediator change definitions in history?

 

[GaryA]

You’re just a dishonest person. The Greek word build in Matt 16:18 is οἰκοδομήσω (literally meaning “I will build”). Literally no Bible translation on earth translates that word as “I will grow through edification". None. Because that’s not what Jesus said.

No, I am not a dishonest person.

I just did not research it sufficiently well enough initially.

I think I was eating something at the time and did not spend the proper effort in looking it up.

"My bad. I apologize."

The meaning in this context is 'establish'.

~

Nonetheless, it is figurative - Peter, the "rock" - or, 'foundation' - upon which Jesus would build - or, establish - His Church.

Jesus did not build His Church directly upon Peter (literally).

The verse does not declare that Peter would be the 'head' of it - only that he would be used as a 'foundation' in the 'building' - or, 'establishing' - of the Church.

 

[Adstar]

oh, so you are one of those pro censorship people

anyone who disagrees w/ you should be banned to Siberia or something

People posting as Christians in a Christian forum should be Christians.. So that seekers who come here can get Christian responses to their questions..

People like muslims, catholics, mormons and jews and other cults should be restricted to an area of the forum where they cannot muddy the waters for seekers and any Christian who wants to preach to them can do so..

 

[GodMyFortress]

No, I am not a dishonest person.

I just did not research it sufficiently well enough initially.

I think I was eating something at the time and did not spend the proper effort in looking it up.

"My bad. I apologize."

The meaning in this context is 'establish'.

~

Nonetheless, it is figurative - Peter, the "rock" - or, 'foundation' - upon which Jesus would build - or, establish - His Church.

Jesus did not build His Church directly upon Peter (literally).

The verse does not declare that Peter would be the 'head' of it - only that he would be used as a 'foundation' in the 'building' - or, 'establishing' - of the Church.

If God wouldn’t of changed his name to Rock, it would all be fair speculation. But he actually changed his name to rock, said he was the rock on which he would build the church, then gave him the keys to heaven. Which has a parallel in Isaiah (the keys) that shows Peter was being identified with a special office.

It’s very straightforward.

 

[Athanasius377]

@JesusWhereRU is not saying Jesus isn’t the only mediator between the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is our only pathway in that way. He’s saying it’s pleasing to God for us to be mediators in a lesser sense. The entire Bible makes it very clear God likes for us to mediate for him.

- Paul is blinded on his way to Damascus, how does God lift Paul’s blindness? He sends another Christian to lay hands on him to lift the blindness - Mediator

God used Peter to perform healing miracles - Mediator

God gave the Apostles the the ability to bind and loose and forgive sin - Mediator

Elders are asked to anoint the sick with oils - Mediator

I’m assuming you didn’t Baptize yourself or that Jesus didn’t come down in the flesh to baptize you? The person who baptized you was used as a - Mediator

When you ask someone to pray for you, you make that person a - Mediator

Every Prophet in the Bible relayed what God wanted his believers to know - Mediator

The High Priest was used by God to make sacrifices among many other things for God’s people - Mediator

Do I even need to list all the miracles God performed through Moses? - Mediator

I could go on and on.

Nope. A swing and a miss.


The word mediator has a specific meaning and comes to us from two words. In Hebrew the word is יכח and in greek the word is
μεσίτης. The word has a very specific meaning and narrow semantic domain. It involves a legal dispute as the term comes to us from from Hellenistic legal language.

According to BDAG μεσίτης:
one who mediates betw. two parties to remove a disagreement or reach a common goal, mediator, arbitrator,


Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 634). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

It is used six times in the NT

Gal 3:19, Gal 3:20:
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

1 Tim2:5:
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Heb 8:6:
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Heb 9:15:
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Heb 12:23-24:
23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.


You are broadening the term because you have a tradition you are trying to shoehorn into the text. If I ask my daughter to get a cup of coffee for me while I am working doesn't make her a mediator between me and coffee. Your argument is silly and invalid.

A.

 

[GodMyFortress]

Nope. A swing and a miss.


The word mediator has a specific meaning and comes to us from two words. In Hebrew the word is יכח and in greek the word is
μεσίτης. The word has a very specific meaning and narrow semantic domain. It involves a legal dispute as the term comes to us from from Hellenistic legal language.

According to BDAG μεσίτης:
one who mediates betw. two parties to remove a disagreement or reach a common goal, mediator, arbitrator,


Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 634). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

It is used six times in the NT

Gal 3:19, Gal 3:20:
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

1 Tim2:5:
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Heb 8:6:
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Heb 9:15:
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Heb 12:23-24:
23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.


You are broadening the term because you have a tradition you are trying to shoehorn into the text. If I ask my daughter to get a cup of coffee for me while I am working doesn't make her a mediator between me and coffee. Your argument is silly and invalid.

A.

Hebrew has nothing to do with this, the word Paul used for mediator in that verse means go-between in Greek. Which is the original language Timothy was written in. Ya’ll have been caught not knowing that God mediates through other Christians throughout the New Testament. And now you’re frantically trying to makeup whatever story you can to fit your narrative.

Even the Greek Orthodox agree with me.

 

[Athanasius377]

Hebrew has nothing to do with this, the word Paul used for mediator in that verse means go-between in Greek. Which is the original language Timothy was written in. Ya’ll have been caught not knowing that God mediates through other Christians throughout the New Testament. And now you’re frantically trying to makeup whatever story you can to fit your narrative.

Even the Greek Orthodox agree with me.

μεσίτης is the greek word used by Paul and I gave you the definition from the definitive Greek Lexicon and where it appears in the NT. If we are so franticly making what ever story up then surely you can show us where else this noun appears in text of the New Testament. Unless you just got caught making things up out of thin air to defend a tradition.

 

[GodMyFortress]

μεσίτης is the greek word used by Paul and I gave you the definition from the definitive Greek Lexicon and where it appears in the NT. If we are so franticly making what ever story up then surely you can show us where else this noun appears in text of the New Testament. Unless you just got caught making things up out of thin air to defend a tradition.

Your definition in no way conflicts with what I am saying.

one who mediates betw. two parties to remove a disagreement or reach a common goal, mediator, arbitrator,

If you read my previous posts in this thread, you would know that I absolutely agree that Christ the only mediator between us, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. That is a special mediator role only Christ has.

That does not mean that God does not choose for us to be mediators for lesser things.

Using your definition, I’ve already provided examples from the entire Bible that clearly show God using other Christians to mediate between two parties (God and other people), to reach a common goal or remove a disagreement.


God gave Peter a vision to settle a dispute at the council of Jerusalem- Mediator

Paul needed his sight restored and God used a Christian to restore it (common goal) - Mediator

God and humanity desires Christians be baptized (common goal), so God uses another person to Baptize you - Mediator

I can go on and on.

 

[DeanM]

No, I am not a dishonest person.

I just did not research it sufficiently well enough initially.

I think I was eating something at the time and did not spend the proper effort in looking it up.

"My bad. I apologize."

The meaning in this context is 'establish'.

~

Nonetheless, it is figurative - Peter, the "rock" - or, 'foundation' - upon which Jesus would build - or, establish - His Church.

Jesus did not build His Church directly upon Peter (literally).

The verse does not declare that Peter would be the 'head' of it - only that he would be used as a 'foundation' in the 'building' - or, 'establishing' - of the Church.

Peter wasnt the rock. The rock is Peters knowledge of who Jesus was/is.

 

[GodMyFortress]

Peter wasnt the rock. The rock is Peters knowledge of who Jesus was/is.

The verse doesn’t say that. It doesn’t say “on your knowledge of who I am” I will build my church. That is wholly unbiblical.

 

[DeanM]

The verse doesn’t say that. It doesn’t say “on your knowledge of who I am” I will build my church. That is wholly unbiblical.

Read it without the catholic doctrine weighing on you. Which is true of all the false doctrine you have been posting nonstop for days. I dont think many are buying what ypur selling but carry on.

 

[GodMyFortress]

Read it without the catholic doctrine weighing on you. Which is true of all the false doctrine you have been posting nonstop for days. I dont think many are buying what ypur selling but carry on.

You’re the one denying what Jesus said, not me. He didn’t say what you said. It literally makes no sense what you’re arguing.

- He changes Simon’s name to rock, not anyone else, just Peter.

-Jesus only uses the personal pronoun “you” when speaking to Peter multiple times in those verses.

- He gives Peter the keys to heaven, no one else. Jesus says I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

You have no leg to stand on.

 

[DeanM]

You’re the one denying what Jesus said, not me. He didn’t say what you said. It literally makes no sense what you’re arguing.

- He changes Simon’s name to rock, not anyone else, just Peter.

-Jesus only uses the personal pronoun “you” when speaking to Peter multiple times in those verses.

- He gives Peter the keys to heaven, no one else. Jesus says I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

You have no leg to stand on.

For the sake of your indoctrination lets move on to some others. The assumption of Mary, Mary as co-redeemer, pope as vicar of Christ, the dead that catholics deem saints interceeding for you with, is it Christ or do they skip over Him and go directly to the Father? The theres purgatory and i know there is more but that should keep you flipping through your catechism for awhile.

 

[GodMyFortress]

For the sake of your indoctrination lets move on to some others. The assumption of Mary, Mary as co-redeemer, pope as vicar of Christ, the dead that catholics deem saints interceeding for you with, is it Christ or do they skip over Him and go directly to the Father? The theres purgatory and i know there is more but that should keep you flipping through your catechism for awhile.

Nice deflection since you clearly can’t refute what Jesus said. I can provide you links to explain any of that. Just say you’re interested and I would be happy to provide that for you.

 

[DeanM]

I gave that to you. No delection just difference of opinion, mine and your popes. Now. Wheres your answers to my questions?

 

[DeanM]

I want scripture for the answers. Nit links to which pope said what when. Kerp in mind, I dont believe anything written much past 100 AD.