Great GRACE {MYSTERY} Departure @ the 2nd coming {prophecy}?
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Ok then, more Problems:
(1) Witch is Better?:
"men" instructing watchmen to look for antichrist, And "preparing" by
Selfishly Hoarding Up seven years of food for famine, to "endure to the
end of Great Tribulation!," Thus, "living BY SIGHT [the law]!"? Or:
Obeying God, Under HIS Amazing GRACE, "living By FAITH, not by sight..."
Looking, Watching, And Waiting For [ our "Blessed HOPE!" ]
The LORD JESUS CHRIST!...
...While loving our neighbor, And Selflessly working to use God's
{ Provided } money to "GIVE to them in need," while performing All
"good works" For God, in Order To Be:
►►► "Prepared" For Judgment In PRE-TOJT Departure TO Heaven! ◄◄◄
(1 Corinthians 3 : 8-15! cp 1 Corinthians 4 : 12; Ephesians 4 : 28;
1 Thessalonians 4 : 11-12; Philippians 4 : 19; 2 Corinthians 9 : 8;
Romans 12 : 20!) Amen?
So Sorry! WHICH? not
(2) be continued with "gubmint" problems...
"Prove ALL things; hold fast That Which Is Good!"
(1_Thessalonians 5 : 21 KJB!)
Be Blessed!
Ok then, more Problems:
(1) Witch is Better?:
"men" instructing watchmen to look for antichrist, And "preparing" by
Selfishly Hoarding Up seven years of food for famine, to "endure to the
end of Great Tribulation!," Thus, "living BY SIGHT [the law]!"? Or:
Obeying God, Under HIS Amazing GRACE, "living By FAITH, not by sight..."
Looking, Watching, And Waiting For [ our "Blessed HOPE!" ]
The LORD JESUS CHRIST!...
...While loving our neighbor, And Selflessly working to use God's
{ Provided } money to "GIVE to them in need," while performing All
"good works" For God, in Order To Be:
►►► "Prepared" For Judgment In PRE-TOJT Departure TO Heaven! ◄◄◄
(1 Corinthians 3 : 8-15! cp 1 Corinthians 4 : 12; Ephesians 4 : 28;
1 Thessalonians 4 : 11-12; Philippians 4 : 19; 2 Corinthians 9 : 8;
Romans 12 : 20!) Amen?
So Sorry! WHICH? notwitch
(2) be continued with "gubmint" problems...
"Prove ALL things; hold fast That Which Is Good!"
(1_Thessalonians 5 : 21 KJB!)
Be Blessed!
Absolutely, love your neighbor as yourself. Pretty easy right? But it's more than just throwing money at a problem or offering a hot plate of food. That's great stuff, but it's temporary isn't it?
If you can teach people the skills necessary to farm fruit, vegetables, and hunt then you're doing them a service that will bless them their whole life.
It's like the old saying "If you give someone a fish you can feed them for a day. If you teach someone to fish you can feed them for life." Rings true yeah?
All the rapture verses are in a peace and normal life setting.Correct, no, none of Them Specifically Say "The Return Of CHRIST Is PRE-TOJT!"
Now, somebody Needs To DEFINE Exactly "what Return means: Is it:
(1) According to Prophecy Return {IMMEDIATELY After Gr8Trib, AND SIGNS} means: Returns all THE WAY to the earth for the battle of Armageddon, setting UP HIS THRONE, blowing a trumpet, having
HIS angels GATHER the elect OF ISRAEL/nations {rapture?} and the wicked survivors {rapture?}, for sheep/goats Judgment, to see who Qualifies TO ENTER the kingdom for 1000 years, on the EARTTH?
{Daniel, Matthew, Revelation = Prophecy!}?
or:
(2) According To The Mystery,Returnmeans: HIS {IMMEDIATELY
After GRACE Has Ended AND NO "signs"}, Coming to GATHER HIS
{Already TRANSLATED Into the kingdom} Body Unto HIMSELF,
"meeting them IN THE AIR," Taking them To Glory, to be Judged
FOR: shame {lack of REWARDS}, or rewards, ruling, and reigning
In The HEAVENS! {Does NOTReturnALL THE WAY to the earth!!}
(Romans - Philemon = MYSTERY!!!)?
Please make up our minds
IF God's TWO Different Programs are NOT EQUAL, THEN, The
"MYSTERY" Scriptures "FOR PRE-TOJT" Are QUITE USEFUL, eh?
Be Blessed!
Show me the gathering of noah and lot POST TRIB/POST JIDGEMENT..
OMISSION IS YOUR FRIEND.
AGAIN
the 10 virgin parable has a physical return to the church and a departing with half the church TO THE CONSUMATION.
( INTIMACY)
BRIDE
BRIDEGROOM
WEDDING CHAMBER
DOOR SHUT
NON COMMITED CARNAL PEW SITTERS SHUT OUT TO FACE MARTYRDOM.
YOU can say all you want that there is no wedding chamber,
and reframe it, but it is unmistakebly the rapture of half the church....to heaven.
The bride and groom going to heaven....THE RAPTURE.
AMAZING!
YET ANOTHER postrib rapture debunking.
That really is telling how postribs cling to dead church fathers when it suits their doctrine.
Yet here is HISTORIC PROOF. The pretrib rapture is not a darby invention.
Postrib rapture doctrine, at this late hour, is ridiculously reckless.
Seems to be with ALL the problems...
Thanks, Yes, Under GRACE, To The Body Of CHRIST!
continuing problems for "In/Post-trib":
(2) For those who Still Insist on “living BY SIGHT” to See anti-christ First, and "enter" Into Great Tribulation, "under his {Satan's} GOVERNMENTAL reign," Then do they not have The Following Scriptural "Dilemma"?
Considering This - From God And HIS Word!:
Today, ALL members of The Body Of CHRIST Are Instructed, By God, To:
"be subject to governmental authorities, And pray For them!"
(Romans 13 : 1-7; Titus 3 : 1; 1 Timothy 2 : 1-4).
How does that then "work out" (Disobedience?), for the Body Of CHRIST "members," who WILL GO Into the Great Tribulation, as "the government Will Be Under The Control" Of Satan and the Beast! (Revelation_13 : 4)?
Since YOU “WILL be subject,” guess YOU had better PRAY FOR him, AND,
“take his MARK,” Eh?
"Prove ALL things; hold fast That Which Is Good!" (1 Thessalonians 5 : 21!)
According to mat 24 and 25 roughly half the church are worthy to be in the harvest of the bride.
The Bible gives us a lot of information about the signs of the end times. They aren't to be ignored. They're given to us so that when the time comes, we'll recognize the signs, and not be deceived about the truth.
We're watching and waiting for the return of Christ which comes "immediately after the tribulation" according to Matthew 24:29-31 when Jesus sends out His angels to "gather His elect."
This is especially important now when people are asserting there is a pre-trib rapture of the church. You're looking for a departure of the church prior to the anti-Christ being revealed, but Jesus said His coming will be light lightening from East to West. Will you be deceived when people say "look, He's in the wilderness!" Or "look, He's in the inner room?" Will you go look?
If you can't understand the post-trib rapture, is it possible you won't recognize the anti-Christ for who he actually is when the time comes? You could still be waiting for a pre-trib rapture well into the great tribulation.
Worst case scenario is that many pre-tribbers will become apostates and think the whole thing was just a hoax.
If I am alive for the fullblown mark of the beast period, I will be prepared because I knew in advance that the end is near. You will be confused and scrambling for answers as to how this could all be happening.
And I don't want you to be confused and scrambling for answers. I want you to take the Bible for exactly what it says. Stop adding that there is a pre-trib rapture into the texts. It isn't there.
Matthew 24:29-31 and 2 Thessalonians 2 should be big clues to you about the period in which Jesus returns.
Precious friend, According To Prophetic Scriptures, After CHRIST "Gathers HIS
Body Home To Heaven," HE "Does Provide Help," Through THESE THREE!:
(1) 144,000 Jews (Revelation 7 : 1-8)
(2) Witnesses (Revelation 11 : 1-12)
(3) an angel (Revelation 14 : 6)
No worries...Be Blessed!
Here are verses I shared,
KJV
Zec 14:5 On that day His feet will stand on Mt Olive. The Mt will split in 2 from east to west. Then the Lord your God will come, & all the saints with Him.
(MY NOTE: The LORD my God shall come & """ALL""" the saints are with him)
1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(MY NOTE: When the Lord Jesus returns """ALL""" his saints are with him)
I since checked dozens of translations at
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.
Every translation said ""ALL"" His saints are with him when he physically returns.
Would you be kind enough to provide the translations that support your position of only a portion of his redeemed. Thx in advance, JJ
Sure.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 expounds upon those who will return with Jesus. They are sleeping, or deceased, saints. They aren't people from the rapture.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
People who are "alive and remain" will be raptured after those who are asleep are resurrected:
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The dead in Christ shall rise first. The sleeping saints that Jesus brings with Him will be resurrected first:
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
After the first resurrection, those who are alive and remain will be raptured:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The verses you quoted are not wrong, but I think 1 Thessalonians 4 actually clarifies who "all the saints" are who return with Jesus.
Remember, we who are alive and remain will not precede those those sleep. The dead in Christ will rise, or be resurrected, first. Then we are caught up with Jesus in the air.
Right!
There's also these references:
--"the least of these My brethren" Matt25:40,45 (who are not the ones BEING "judged/separated" in this context [Sheep and goats judgment OF THE NATIONS / GENTILES]; these ['the least of these My brethren'] are the believing remnant of Israel in that future time-period);
--"the WISE" (of Israel, PER CONTEXT) of Dan12:1-4,10 (which passage is telling of mid-trib+ events; and is NOT speaking in these four verses of a "physical / bodily resurrection from having been formerly physically / bodily DEAD"; RATHER, is speaking of Israel having "come up out of the graveyard of nations... where scattered" as in Ezek37:12-14,20-23 ['dry bones' prophecy], and Hos5:14-6:3 ['he will raise us [Israel] up'], and Rom11:15[25] ['what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD'], and Isa26:15-21 ['Awake, and sing, ye that DWELL IN DUST' (<--note that similar phrase elsewhere)], and other passages which 'LIKEN this UNTO A RESURRECTION' re: Israel's 'future'); notice what they GO ON *TO DO* in this Dan12:1-4,10 text: "3 And they that BE WISE shall shine as...; and they that TURN MANY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS shall shine as..." (where v.10 contrasts "the WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND" with the "wicked" who shall NOT)
"Our Rapture [/ THE Departure]" event will be a primary impetus that helps Israel come to faith in their Messiah (Matt24:9 speaks of THEM--fairly *early* in the Trib yrs!), and it is THEY who are the ones tasked with the "INVITING TO" the wedding FEAST/SUPPER aka the EARTHLY MK age (....which is not what msg is going out "NOW")
Which prophetic scriptures say those three group help the saints of the GT after Christ gathers those who belong to Him?
1st my post in this thread was to TheDivineWatermark.
Basically in agreement & support of his stated position on the word departure.
The way that one word is interrupted completely changes the falling away narrative. The versions I shared were a direct copy & paste & I changed/added/subtracted nothing from them.
Below the verses I'm sharing are [brackets included] a direct copy & paste from Amplified Bible translators. Find the link attached & read for yourself.
Those Who Died in Christ
1 Thessalonians 4:
13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, believers, about those who are asleep [in death], so that you will not grieve [for them] as the others do who have no hope [beyond this present life].
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [as in fact He did], even so God [in this same way—by raising them from the dead] will bring with Him those [believers] who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death].
16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!
18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Thessalonians+4&version=AMP
(MY NOTE HERE: Book is written to believers Thes 1:1. Onto 1 Thessalonians 4:16 & 17 from AMP above word for word: [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.)
Key word here to our conversation is SIMULTANEOUSLY! My position here is that BOTH = The believers that had died in Christ & those believers still alive at the time ""ALL SIMULTANEOUSLY!""" are caught-up together.
Question: where do they ALL meet the Lord? Answer Vs 17, IN THE AIR! These are the [ALL] we see with Jesus when His Feet Physically touch My Olive upon His return. See Zec 14 verses shared eariler post.
I respect your view, having said that, I respectfully disagree with it. The apostles had disagreements & still managed to love one another. May His grace be multiplied to you & yours, JJ.
The Amplified Bible contradicted the scripture in the example you showed:
"16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!"
It says the dead in Christ will rise first and then those who are alive and remain will simultaneously be caught up in the clouds in a rapture.
The dead in Christ rising first would mean that occurs firstly and foremost before the rapture, not simultaneously.
That's why I don't like the Amplified Bible and in my honest opinion it isn't a good translation.
Anyway, yes, I love you too. I guess we can just agree to disagree. I have never had an issue with just settling on a disagreement with eschatology.
On that note, I'll leave you with something to ponder. The first resurrection mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4 includes saints from the great tribulation according to Revelation 20:4-6.
How does the first resurrection/rapture occur before the great tribulation if Revelation 20:4-6 states the first resurrection contains martyrs from the great tribulation?
God bless.
It is the "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER" that happens "simultaneously"... and THAT is when the "so shall WE [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] *ever* be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (it requires the raising ['rise first'] of "the DEAD IN Christ" in order for the "ONE BODY" to be completely and entirely "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER" at the SAME TIME, "AS ONE"...)
Paul is saying that "the DEAD IN Christ" will NOT miss out on the "[WITH/] UNIONed-with Him" thing... nor the returning/coming "WITH / UNIONed-with HIM" thing, such as Colossians 3:4 ALSO speaks of (among other passages)...
The verse you are pointing out (1Th4:14) has the "G4862 - UNIONed-with" word... which means that the UNION-thing (pertaining to the "ONE BODY") has already taken place... and THAT TAKES PLACE at the point-in-time of the "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER" [i.e. our Rapture IN THE AIR] thing, which both the DEAD IN Christ *AND* the we which are ALIVE and remain will experience "TOGETHER / AT THE SAME POINT-IN-TIME" (in ONE "SNATCH"-action!).
Thus, Paul is NOT saying, He'll "bring with Him" their SPIRITS, to meet/reunite with their [now-glorified] bodies, IN THIS VERSE (that is NOT the CONTEXT for what point Paul is making here!)
Some versions are saying they occur together. Some versions are saying the rapture occurs afterwards.
I believe it doesn't make sense to to say the dead in Christ rise first if the resurrection is a simultaneous happening with the rapture.
So which is it and why are these versions translating this verses entirely differently?
New International Version
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
New Living Translation
Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
English Standard Version
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Berean Study Bible
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Amplified Bible
Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!
Berean Literal Bible
Then we, the living remaining, will be caught away together with them in the clouds for the meeting of the Lord in the air; and so we will be always with the Lord.
King James Bible
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
You are completely MISSING what I am pointing out.
The dead in Christ "shall rise first" before the "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER" action happens (to BOTH those having just been raised first AND the we which are ALIVE and remain).
Look again at all your versions you listed (and note the part you DIDN'T highlight in most of them):
New International Version
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
New Living Translation
Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
English Standard Version
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Berean Study Bible
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Amplified Bible
Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!
Berean Literal Bible
Then we, the living remaining, will be caught away together with them in the clouds for the meeting of the Lord in the air; and so we will be always with the Lord.
King James Bible
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
The ADVERB ["together"] must be attached to the VERB ["caught up"] ("CAUGHT UP TOGETHER" is ONE "SNATCH"-ACTION! at ONE POINT-IN-TIME ["TOGETHER"]... It's not that they'll be "caught up" at one point in time, and then we which are alive will be caught up at ANOTHER point in time... NO!)