Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[lamad]

The 24 elders are mentioned twice in ch 7.......among a number of other groups. This chapter alone quashes a lot of erroneous teachings.

7:11
All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

7:13
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

Yes, they are mentioned. But what does that prove? They (the elders) were seen in the throne room before Christ ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - and here - still in our future - they are seen again. I suggest they are the very same elders.

Here we also see this large group. They are the raptured church. But chapter 7 is an intermission after the 6th seal which started (will start) the Day of the Lord. Yet is is before the 7th seal that will start the 70th week and the trumpets, each which will come with the wrath of God. Why the intermission to show these two events?

It is simple: before God will allow the Trumpets to begin God's wrath for the 70th week God MUST see two events accomplished:
1: the 144,000 must be sealed
2. The church must be seen safe in heaven.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't see any 2000 yr gap between chapters 4 and 5 that's for sure.

TDW is that you

 

[cv5]

Right. One of the elders initiates a convo with John.

They are discussing the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (v.9) who the elder tells John are ones "coming out of THE GREAT tribulation" v.14 (aka out of the SECOND HALF of the trib years--those ppl are not "the Church which is His body" that they are speaking about).



[vv.15-17 (speaking of same) is parallel Isaiah 49:10, an earthly MK passage]

Totally agree. Furthermore this redeemed group of "all the nations" is the RESULT of the sealing/preaching of the 144,000 elect ethnic Israeli commandos noted earlier in 7:4 thru 7:8.....

It is quite clear that the main task of preaching the gospel of salvation has been handed off to Israel, formerly commission to the Church who now raptured to the heavenly realm.

 

[lamad]

I don't see any 2000 yr gap between chapters 4 and 5 that's for sure.

Neither can I find it between 5 & 6. It is not the intent of the Author so there is no hint of in in scripture here.

(The first hint of a long period of time to wait is at the 5th seal martyrs of the church age. They are told that judgment will not start until the very last martyr to be killed as they were - as church age martyrs. We are still waiting......

What does John show next? Judgment with the start of the Day of the Lord.

 

[Truth7t7]

He just finished "dropping off" the Church which is His body to their destination location ("sealed UNTO the day of REDEMPTION"--"hast redeemed US" is what the 24 elders say here, in 5:9. [see also 1:5-6 "US... US"]). Not that all of His tasks are complete at this point in the chronology... (many more ppl will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture / THE Departure")





[1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 = the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book ("TO SHOW UNTO" / "I WILL SHOW YOU...")]

cv5 is that you

 

[Truth7t7]

It is quite clear that the main task of preaching the gospel of salvation has been handed off to Israel, formerly commission to the Church who now raptured to the heavenly realm.

Your just full of tall tales

Your claim is "False" the church will be present on earth during the tribulation, and eye witness of the second coming, as they will look up and watch their redemption return.

Luke 21:25-29KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[lamad]

Totally agree. Furthermore this redeemed group of "all the nations" is the RESULT of the sealing/preaching of the 144,000 elect ethnic Israeli commandos noted earlier in 7:4 thru 7:8.....

It is quite clear that the main task of preaching the gospel of salvation has been handed off to Israel, formerly commission to the Church who now raptured to the heavenly realm.

I must declare this as myth, for there is NOT ONE HINT in scripture of what you say. And John has covered NO TIME in this intermission. It is still only between two seals. It will last for the time it will take angels to seal 144,000.

I know, born again Jews like to propagate this myth.

The truth is, this large group is the CHURCH and this is before John starts the 70th week, much less arrives at the midpoint.

 

[cv5]

Yes, they are mentioned. But what does that prove? They (the elders) were seen in the throne room before Christ ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - and here - still in our future - they are seen again. I suggest they are the very same elders.

Here we also see this large group. They are the raptured church. But chapter 7 is an intermission after the 6th seal which started (will start) the Day of the Lord. Yet is is before the 7th seal that will start the 70th week and the trumpets, each which will come with the wrath of God. Why the intermission to show these two events?

It is simple: before God will allow the Trumpets to begin God's wrath for the 70th week God MUST see two events accomplished:
1: the 144,000 must be sealed
2. The church must be seen safe in heaven.

Looks like you're doing some damage control at this point. I hope you can see how you've gone awry. They correct eschatology has all supposed problems buttoned down tightly. No problems no loose ends......perfection.

 

[cv5]

Neither can I find it between 5 & 6. It is not the intent of the Author so there is no hint of in in scripture here.

(The first hint of a long period of time to wait is at the 5th seal martyrs of the church age. They are told that judgment will not start until the very last martyr to be killed as they were - as church age martyrs. We are still waiting......

What does John show next? Judgment with the start of the Day of the Lord.

There is no time gap between chapter 5 and 6. Never have I said that there was. They are practically instantaneously sequential for all intents and purposes.

 

[lamad]

He just finished "dropping off" the Church which is His body to their destination location ("sealed UNTO the day of REDEMPTION"--"hast redeemed US" is what the 24 elders say here, in 5:9. [see also 1:5-6 "US... US"]). Not that all of His tasks are complete at this point in the chronology... (many more ppl will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture / THE Departure")

[1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 = the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book ("TO SHOW UNTO" / "I WILL SHOW YOU...")]

Unless you can show us this "dropping off" in scripture it is only a MYTH. (you can't so it is myth!)

Question: When Jesus shed His blood, did that blood go all the way back and remove ADAM's sin? You know it did.

Since it SAYS 24 elders (and then later "us" referring back to them) and since it shows the time of Jesus' ascension, it would be very poor exegesis to put yourself back in John's time. (You may be "older" but you are not THAT old! Please, do try to force your theory upon the text. Let it speak!

Are you reverting to posttrib tricks: see the same word in two verse and latch on as if they HAD to be the same? Sorry, the "us" in chapter 1 has a different context than the us in question. I think you know better

 

[lamad]

Looks like you're doing some damage control at this point. I hope you can see how you've gone awry. They correct eschatology has all supposed problems buttoned down tightly. No problems no loose ends......perfection.

The pretrib had had some very poor exegesis for centuries. But God is revealing truth.

For example, when was John called up? (Approximately)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

First off, from the Greek, they are coming one by one and continuing to come. So the answer is not "how they got from earth to heaven" as many suppose: it is how they got into this group one by one. They came in by becoming born again.

So what about the mega "great" tribulation. It is speaking of the everyday tribulation that people are in when they get born again. But since they have been coming one by one since 32 AD, God called it mega - (2000 years) - tribulation.

IOW this is the just raptured church seen in heaven PRETRIB.

The group being spoken of in 7:9,14[15-17] are not shown "in heaven" but [their destination-location] being "on the earth," i.e. the earthly Millennial Kingdom, where vv.15-17 (about them) is parallel to Isaiah 49:10 as I just pointed out in that post (an earthly MK age passage).

 

[cv5]

I must declare this as myth, for there is NOT ONE HINT in scripture of what you say. And John has covered NO TIME in this intermission. It is still only between two seals. It will last for the time it will take angels to seal 144,000.

I know, born again Jews like to propagate this myth.

The truth is, this large group is the CHURCH and this is before John starts the 70th week, much less arrives at the midpoint.

Nope. There is no reason to believe that any gentile in Rev is doing the preaching the way the gentiles in the Church are doing it today, as being commissioned strictly speaking. Both the 144,000 and two witnesses are Jewish and are in fact commissioned to be Gods spokesmen.

 

[lamad]

There is no time gap between chapter 5 and 6. Never have I said that there was. They are practically instantaneously sequential for all intents and purposes.

Agreed. So if we follow John:
5:6 Jesus ascends, (circa 32 AD) gets the book, and begins right then (32 AD) opening the first seal.

Is this what you are agreeing with?

 

[lamad]

Nope. There is no reason to believe that any gentile in Rev is doing the preaching the way the gentiles in the Church are doing it today, as being commissioned strictly speaking. Both the 144,000 and two witnesses are Jewish and are in fact commissioned to be Gods spokesmen.

It is true that we are in the very same church age that was started back then. But we need to determine WHERE in Revelation the church age ends. It is NOT at "after this."

Consider seal 5: the martyrs. If they were 70th week martyrs then would already KNOW "judgment" had started. But this group did not know. They had to ask. Why? Because the timing of that seal is early church age. This is the first long wait we see in John's narrative: they are told judgment must wait until the very last martyr killed as they were - as church age martyrs.

This is really telling us that judgment will wait up the rapture ends the church age. So the rapture in Revelation (NOT SHOWN to John) will come after the 5th seal but before the 6th which is the start of the Day of the Lord. It is no mistake then that John saw the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter!

SCripturally, the only thing we can say about the 144,000 is that they are "firstfruits."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Since it SAYS 24 elders (and then later "us" referring back to them) and since it shows the time of Jesus' ascension,

The text just says, in 5:6, "a Lamb standing AS HAVING BEEN SLAIN [PERFECT participle]" (you are well aware what "PERFECT tense" means). You are reading "His ascension" INTO this passage... (due to how *you* are reading the "was found" verse, v.4 and surrounding)



[5:4's "was found" means that a "searching judgment" has already been concluded, just like is used re: Paul in Acts 23-24 when he was brought before their human/earthly "bema" (judgment / court)... In THIS CONTEXT, the 24 elders are ALREADY shown wearing "stephanous/crowns"... something that Paul said he would be "awarded IN THAT DAY" (and "not to [him] ONLY")... and the ppl in "the things WHICH ARE" section (chpts 2-3) had been told about "crown"... Here in the "FUTURE" aspects ("meta tauta") that John is "SHOWN," there are ppl up in Heaven *now* WEARING THEM! WHERE DID THEY GET THESE?!?! And THEY are SAYING "hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY..." (clearly "a CHANGE" has taken place!)]




Jesus ascended ALONE on Firstfruit (His resurrection day; Jn20:17 [1Cor15:20 / Lev23:10-12]), but took only "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (that's US / ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]") there (that day) POSITIONALLY / LEGALLY (NO ONE ELSE!).

 

[lamad]

The group being spoken of in 7:9,14[15-17] are not shown "in heaven" but [their destination-location] being "on the earth," i.e. the earthly Millennial Kingdom, where vv.15-17 (about them) is parallel to Isaiah 49:10 as I just pointed out in that post (an earthly MK age passage).

Hmmm: you say they are not shown in heaven...let's look:

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

John disagrees with you. I will go with john. Yes, EVENTUALLY they will be judges in the Millennial kingdom. But John is just about the begin the 70th week. This is NOT a "flash-forward!" John does not do that.

WHO SAID verse 15 does not go with the verses before it? Your theory? Do you ever look up Greek tenses?

They are before the throne: present tense
Serve Him: present tense
He that sits: Present tense
Shall dwell: Future tense

I think you missed it - again.

Again I must ask, why not just let the verses say what they say?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@lamad , the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (v.9) are set in contradistinction to the "144,000" also on the earth in the same time period that they are existing in... (the tribulation period)... Rev7:9's wording is parallel to Matthew 24:14[26:13], etc, which is what msg WILL BE being preached IN THE TRIB YRS (not what is being preached *now*)...

...which relates to the "INVITATION TO" the promised and prophesied *earthly* Millennial Kingdom (aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES"... not "the MARRIAGE" itself [which is DISTINCT])... and Rev19:9 [distinct from 19:7] says, "[...those] HAVING BEEN INVITED to the wedding SUPPER of the Lamb" (the "HAVING BEEN INVITED" will have taken place all throughout the TRIB yrs on the earth... leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19, as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom)... THEN that meal will commence (i.e. the EARTHLY MK age).




I'm guessing you think "the 144,000" have already existed back in the first century??

[I've posted before: I believe Paul is a "TYPE" of the future "144,000" (they will exist in the future [7] TRIB yrs)...; "suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me."]

 

[lamad]

The text just says, in 5:6, "a Lamb standing AS HAVING BEEN SLAIN [PERFECT participle]" (you are well aware what "PERFECT tense" means). You are reading "His ascension" INTO this passage... (due to how *you* are reading the "was found" verse, v.4 and surrounding)



[5:4's "was found" means that a "searching judgment" has already been concluded, just like is used re: Paul in Acts 23-24 when he was brought before their human/earthly "bema" (judgment / court)... In THIS CONTEXT, the 24 elders are ALREADY shown wearing "stephanous/crowns"... something that Paul said he would be "awarded IN THAT DAY" (and "not to [him] ONLY")... and the ppl in "the things WHICH ARE" section (chpts 2-3) had been told about "crown"... Here in the "FUTURE" aspects ("meta tauta") that John is "SHOWN," there are ppl up in Heaven *now* WEARING THEM! WHERE DID THEY GET THESE?!?! And THEY are SAYING "hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY..." (clearly "a CHANGE" has taken place!)]




Jesus ascended ALONE on Firstfruit (His resurrection day; Jn20:17 [1Cor15:20 / Lev23:10-12]), but took only "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (that's US / ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]") there (that day) POSITIONALLY / LEGALLY (NO ONE ELSE!).

"As having been slain" I think is translated perfectly: it shows that from the current time stamp, some time in the past He was slain and that slaying was finished them - some time in the past.

Another point: where was He before He was suddenly in heaven? It is back to the search for one worthy. Jesus "prevailed" over death after He had been slain. Where was He slain? On earth. You know the history: He was crucified, buried and then rose, all on earth. Then after sending Mary away He ascended. It seems you really don't think that is the story John is telling us. Well, it is. You just have not recognized it.

You are reading "His ascension" INTO this passage

I think the context proves it. I think you don't really understand the context. I think the reason He was not found in that first search is that He and not yet risen from the dead. When John wrote that "He prevailed" to open the seals, I think that is when He rose from the dead.

If you say something that disagrees with what Jesus spoke to me, don't feel bad but I will go with HIM!

By the way, "thanks" are in order. you finally forced me to really examine the "us" and I solved an unknown that had been bugging me for a long time. I have not believed that those that Jesus rose when He rose were the elders seen in the throne room, but I never could fit them in. Thanks you you, now I have.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

By the way, "thanks" are in order. you finally forced me to really examine the "us" and I solved an unknown that had been bugging me for a long time. I have not believed that those that Jesus rose when He rose were the elders seen in the throne room, but I never could fit them in. Thanks you you, now I have.

Again, like I said in the last post (and Scripture itself tells us WHERE the "many" went that day ["into the holy city, and appeared unto many"], in contrast to WHERE Jesus HIMSELF was going ALONE, He ALONE ascended [Jn20:17 (1Cor15:20 / Lev23:10-12 "A SHEAF"! "AN HE LAMB"!)]... the ONLY ppl involved with THAT ascension He did that day was "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" positionally/legally (NOT literally / physically)! Paul repeatedly informs us of this throughout his epistles.






['the many' (Matt27) were a sampling of OT saints, so to speak, and they illustrate what will take place *future* to "our Rapture / THE Departure" (IN THE AIR) of US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY (the "ONE BODY")]