When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

[lamad]

Wrong. No verse mentioning a second search means there wasn't one. Jesus shows up after the search failed and he is instantly recognized as being worthy to open the seals and he does so right then.

It is illogical because a search wasn't needed. It's like a search party looking for a missing child, they search to find the child but fail but then the child walks out of the woods and they see him. That isn't a second search.

This has already been discussed.

You are wrong. The text does show Christ arriving after the first search ended. He ascended. Even you said so before so you are contradicting yourself.

That is the order I have presented not what you present. You claim Jesus was not worthy but this is false. He was always worthy, he just wasn't in heaven yet.

And that is what I have presented. You even argued against the showing up/arriving part yet here you are presenting it as I did.

You said:

The answer is NOT "arriving."

And also:

He ascended and "showed up" in heaven.

LOL....you are confused.

You can SAY there wasn't a second search, but that does not make it truth. I personally think this Angel had been searching for centuries: as soon as a search failed, He started over. Just my opinion. I think that is what John is showing us, another search started while John wept much.

Your answer to the question as to why He was not found in that first search was "In transit." But it seems like you have changed your mind. Now you say He WAS found in that first search but was only delayed.

Jesus shows up after the search failed and he is instantly recognized as being worthy to open the seals and he does so right then.

I think you are missing something. We know from the gospels, everything that happened to Jesus from the cross to His ascension. Why not use that knowledge here? It seems you ignore what you know from the gospels and just make stuff up here. THIS IS TELLING THE SAME STORY THE GOSPELS TOLD, ONLY VERY BRIEFLY!

For example, you KNOW that just before He ascended the first time He said this:


John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Question: do you NOT BELIEVE Jesus ascended here after sending Mary away? After all, it does not say He ascended, it only hints of it. Sometimes scriptures leave things out that we might wish was included. I believe there is enough information here that we can believe Jesus ascended, after sending Mary away. I think this is what took place JUST BEFORE Jesus "showed up" (your words) in the throne room.

Now, let's back up. What happened to Jesus before Mary?

John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Luk 24:
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
8 And they remembered his words,

So we have established by scripture that backing up in time, just before Jesus ascended, He prevailed over death and rose from the dead. Why do you find it so hard to fit this gospel story into John's narrative?

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

As I have said all along, verse five was Jesus conquering death and rising from the dead: and so becoming legally able to take the book and open the seals. John did not write what the qualifications were to open the seals, so we don't have that information. But with what John has given us, we can GUESS that written on the outside of the book was information as to who would be qualified. The seals could only be opened by a "redeemer."

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

How could John have made this plainer? He was worthy to open the seals because He was slain and became the redeemer. (Many men were slain but only one rose from the dead under his own power.) AGain, this verse does not mention Jesus' resurrection. Will you then deny it because John did not write it? We KNOW He rose from the dead! It was part of the redeemption process.

It is illogical because a search wasn't needed.

So what you are saying is, you don't believe John when He said "no man was found?" You don't really know why He wept much. You even hint that much could have only been seconds or minutes. Why not just believe what Jesus spoke to me: that that first search ended in failure? IT FITS THE TEXT!

You are wrong. The text does show Christ arriving after the first search ended

You are almost right, after that first search ended in failure to find anyone. It is WHY John wept. Without a doubt, the angel left showing that search ended in failure.

Keep in mind, the search parameters are "in heaven, on earth, then under the earth. John watched all three places and "no man was found." I think Jesus nailed it when He said to me that the search ended in failure. You still have not answered the question: WHY was Jesus not found BEFORE JOHN WEPT? (I reworded it!) He is GOD in human flesh! Surely the God of creation would be found worthy! The answer is, no. He was not legally able to open the seals until He PREVAILED. I can can guess the angel started a new search back in heaven that John did not see, so did not write.

Now, you say "he showed up." No, that is not scripture: HE PREVAILED. Please, explain what Jesus prevailed over. Please keep things straight: Yes, He showed up in heaven but we are talking about BEFORE His ascension when He prevailed over something to be found worthy. It was LATER when He ascended. Remember Mary? By the way, I did NOT contradict myself. You ignore time here so just rearrange to fit what you think. He as already been found worthy to open the seals because He PREVAILED - before He ascended.

You have attempted to make a very simple narrative of Christ's death, burial and resurrection into something difficult. God was only showing John that Jesus got the book into His hands when He ascended. That would have been around 32 AD.

What you do say the first seal represents?

 

[lamad]

is the Creator subject to His creation?
does the creation have authority over the Creator?

you need to approach the Bible with respect for God.
you're wrong. blasphemy is a huge clue that you do not have the right interpretation. you should never allow yourself to hold any view that blasphemes God. you need to acquire the maturity to accept that and look for the right view.

You seem to have a huge imagination - but you imagine wrong. You say I blaspheme. You are in error that like in every argument you have put forth.

You want Jesus to have redeemed men to God BEFORE He died on the cross. Just common sense should tell you that is error. Its like saying Jesus didn't really have to die on the cross to save us. Did you just ignore the text?

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Strange, I don't read of God hiding! This verse explains WHY or HOW Jesus became legally able to take the book and open the seals: Not because He was on a sabbatical (hiding) and suddenly returned. Nonsense! No, John TELLS US: He was alive, then He was slain. NOT shown but we know it is true, He also rose from the dead. And THEN was redeemed people to God. You want Him to have redeemed men to God before He died - as if He really did not have to die on the cross.

Questions:
Was Jesus GOD before the cross?
Was Jesus God ON the cross?
Was Jesus God Under the earth?

You know the answer: He has ALWAYS been God. But the truth is, before He died on the cross He and not redeemed men, so was not found in the first search for one able to open the seals. It seems the angel was looking for A REDEEMER.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

My whole point is chapters 4 & 5 give us time stamps running up to the time Jesus opened the first seal. I think wondering about who the 24 elders are is a distraction.

I agree with your first sentence (tho disagree with your previously-stated *conclusion*);

I DISAGREE with your second sentence (which I bolded).




I believe that it very much relates to its "timing" issues.






["[no one] was found"... about what?... worthy TO OPEN and TO READ the book/scroll... and TO LOOSE the seven seals thereof . Again, this court room setting (of "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM to SHEW UNTO...") has Jesus as the ONLY ONE "STANDING"... which reminds me again of Gen45:1,6[46:2] "there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO his brethren" (see the correlation of Joseph's SECOND DREAM with that of events surrounding Christ's SECOND ADVENT [Rev12 (1:1/1:19c/4:1 [7:3])]; whereas his *first* dream correlated with Christ's FIRST Advent, per Gen37:8/Lk19:14/1Sam12:12/1Sam8:7/Act3:24,22,26,12]

 

[lamad]

I agree with your first sentence (tho disagree with your previously-stated *conclusion*);

I DISAGREE with your second sentence (which I bolded).




I believe that it very much relates to its "timing" issues.






["[no one] was found"... about what?... worthy TO OPEN and TO READ the book/scroll... and TO LOOSE the seven seals thereof . Again, this court room setting (of "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM to SHEW UNTO...") has Jesus as the ONLY ONE "STANDING"... which reminds me again of Gen45:1,6[46:2] "there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO his brethren" (see the correlation of Joseph's SECOND DREAM with that of events surrounding Christ's SECOND ADVENT [Rev12 (1:1/1:19c/4:1 [7:3])]; whereas his *first* dream correlated with Christ's FIRST Advent, per Gen37:8/Lk19:14/1Sam12:12/1Sam8:7/Act3:24,22,26,12]

You jumpted the gun again! You are talking about one worthy to take the book and open the seals, then JUMPED to His ascension! WHOA BACK! Let's get Him qualified to take the book before He ascends and takes the book.

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. [Looking for a man qualified - but this search failed to find anyone, which is WHY John wept.]
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. [Since "not found" was used in the previous verse, I think we can say in this verse Jesus "prevailed" to be found worthy. How or why?]

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; [John TELLS US how He became qualified to take the book and open the seals: He BECAME the Redeemer.]

We know from the gospels that Jesus rose, then saw Mary, then ascended, in that order. We know that His shed blood is what redeemed us. But Paul added, a testament is not in force UNTIL the testator dies. So we have Jesus shedding blood, dying, then rising from the dead, then seeing Mary.

If we look at these steps backwards, we see why and how Jesus became worthy to open the seals. Verse 9 tells us Jesus was slain. But verse 9 fails to tell us what we already know: that He arose. I believe the resurrection is hidden in John's use of "prevailed." He conquered death as the LAST STEP in the redemption process.

Finally, AFTER Jesus was found worthy after He rose from the dead, He talked with Mary and THEN ascended. In other words, all the qualifications were established before He ascended.

By the way, WHEN did He ascend? Would you allow "somewhere around 32 AD?" And THAT is when He got the book.

And here all this time I have thought Joseph's dreams were about HIM.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

By the way, WHEN did He ascend? Would you allow "somewhere around 32 AD?" And THAT is when He got the book.

I disagree with your bold ^ , which is an ASSUMPTION.



I believe "the 24 elders" could NOT have been present in Heaven THEN/AT THAT TIME (32ad, as you suggest), not with "stephanon/crowns of gold" (nor seated on "THRONES"), which Paul had said would be "awarded IN THAT DAY" (not this present one!)

 

[ewq1938]

God "calling those things that be not as though they were." He became the redeemer through shedding His blood, His obedience to death, and His resurrection. I think you know this.

You should know this:

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

He didn't need to "become" the slain Lamb. He was the slain Lamb since the beginning. That is what makes him worthy before he was born. He was never unworthy as you claim. I agree with the others that your position is blasphemous. Your position is unscriptural and naïve.

 

[ewq1938]

You can SAY there wasn't a second search, but that does not make it truth.

It's the truth. The passage does not speak of a second search. You have created a second search out of NOTHING. That is pure eisegesis.

Your answer to the question as to why He was not found in that first search was "In transit." But it seems like you have changed your mind. Now you say He WAS found in that first search but was only delayed.

No, he wasn't found because he was not in the three search areas. Don't try to claim I have said anything different.

I think you are missing something. We know from the gospels, everything that happened to Jesus from the cross to His ascension. Why not use that knowledge here? It seems you ignore what you know from the gospels and just make stuff up here.

Let's get this straight. Only YOU have been making things up. You claim the bible says things it doesn't and you claim I said things that I never said. That is dishonest discussion. I won't bother to read any further as it is likely to contain the same nonsense.

 

[lamad]

It's the truth. The passage does not speak of a second search. You have created a second search out of NOTHING. That is pure eisegesis.







No, he wasn't found because he was not in the three search areas. Don't try to claim I have said anything different.






Let's get this straight. Only YOU have been making things up. You claim the bible says things it doesn't and you claim I said things that I never said. That is dishonest discussion. I won't bother to read any further as it is likely to contain the same nonsense.

Sorry, but John tells us the first search did not find anyone. It is WHY John wept much. It was LATER when Jesus was found. I can't prove how much later, but you can't prove some lessor amount of time.

No, he wasn't found because he was not in the three search areas.

That is your theory. Only it does not fit the context.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

What? He prevailed over being absent? Well, you did say once "in transit!" You are too funny! Where in any word in this verse can you fit your theory? What's really funny is, there is not fourth place a human could be! You ad libbed that. See if you can find "absent" in this verse.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Hmm. If slain, does the real person go into the 4th dimension? NOT! This verse really tells us WHY He was found worthy, and actually hints strongly of why He was not found worthy earlier.

Let's get this straight. Only YOU have been making things up.

No, not true. You made up "in transit." You made up a 4th dimension. Why not be honest with yourself?

 

[lamad]

You should know this:

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

He didn't need to "become" the slain Lamb. He was the slain Lamb since the beginning. That is what makes him worthy before he was born. He was never unworthy as you claim. I agree with the others that your position is blasphemous. Your position is unscriptural and naïve.

Yes, OF COURSE I know this, but I understand it.

So you are telling us Jesus did not HAVE to die on the cross. If anything is blasphemous it would be that.

Sorry, my friend, but it too the REAL blood of Jesus spilled and it took the DEATH of the testator. Slain from the foundation of the world is only telling us that the Godhead PLANNED His sacrifice from before earth was created. Surely you know this. I am beginning to think you just want to argue.

 

[ewq1938]

It was LATER when Jesus was found. I can't prove how much later, but you can't prove some lessor amount of time.

Yes I can. John was still there. Do you think he was there decades?

See if you can find "absent" in this verse.

He wasn't found which means he was absent. That's basic English.

Hmm. If slain, does the real person go into the 4th dimension? NOT! This verse really tells us WHY He was found worthy, and actually hints strongly of why He was not found worthy earlier.

This is just more blasphemy.

No, not true. You made up "in transit." You made up a 4th dimension. Why not be honest with yourself?

Why don't you stop being dishonest? During the ascension he was not in heaven, the Earth or below the Earth. He was above the Earth, in transit, traveling to Heaven where he would open the seals. Never was he "unworthy". Shame on you for promoting such garbage theology.

 

[lamad]

I disagree with your bold ^ , which is an ASSUMPTION.

I believe "the 24 elders" could NOT have been present in Heaven THEN/AT THAT TIME (32ad, as you suggest), not with "stephanon/crowns of gold" (nor seated on "THRONES"), which Paul had said would be "awarded IN THAT DAY" (not this present one!)

Let's follow the TEXT and not create arguments against the Text"

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
[Telling us that Jesus had just prevailed over death]
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. [Telling us that after He rose from the dead, He ascended. We KNOW this sequence of events from the four gospels: death, burial, resurrection: John is just giving us a very brief outline]
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
[WHEN? WHEN did He take the book. From all available evidence it was as soon as He ascended. Of course you can ad lib something as many do.]
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
I submit this could only have been said AFTER His death, burial and Resurrection. Or will you agree with ewq and insist Jesus was really slain before the foundation of the world?

This is not rocket science. John is giving us the history of His death, burial and resurrection as the very REASON why He was declared worthy to take the book and open the seals. Oh, by the way, that is EXACTLY what He did. The first seal was the CHURCH sent out, around 32 AD.

Did you ever stop and think that God had waited around 4000 years to find someone worthy, so when that Worthy One was found, He just sat on the book for 2000 years? NEVER HAPPEN. The book, when opened with set earth free from the reign of Satan as the god of this world. God would not hesitate ANY amount of time for something this important.

Did you stop to think that this book was a LEGAL document created i the courtroom of heaven? That NOTHING written on a seal could legally take place until Jesus opened that seal to make it legal?

WRONG again! The throne Paul said we would be seated on are found in Rev. 20! How did you miss that? The truth is, no one really knows who these elders are. It is not wise to base a doctrine on guesswork.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, OF COURSE I know this, but I understand it.

So you are telling us Jesus did not HAVE to die on the cross. If anything is blasphemous it would be that.

No one is promoting that. You made it up. It's called a strawman fallacy.

Sorry, my friend, but it too the REAL blood of Jesus spilled and it took the DEATH of the testator. Slain from the foundation of the world is only telling us that the Godhead PLANNED His sacrifice from before earth was created. Surely you know this. I am beginning to think you just want to argue.

You think he wasn't "worthy" until after he was the slain Lamb on the cross but he was slain Lamb from the foundation of the world so he WAS ALWAYS WORTHY.

 

[lamad]

Yes I can. John was still there. Do you think he was there decades?

He wasn't found which means he was absent. That's basic English.

This is just more blasphemy.

Why don't you stop being dishonest? During the ascension he was not in heaven, the Earth or below the Earth. He was above the Earth, in transit, traveling to Heaven where he would open the seals. Never was he "unworthy". Shame on you for promoting such garbage theology.

You just keep on making more stuff up! I would think you would feel guilty. "in transit" was the wrong answer to begin with. "Heaven" by its Greek definition is all that is between the throne of God and us on earth. You are hinting that the Angel doing the search did not know what He was doing.

He wasn't found which means he was absent. That's basic English.

This would be funny if not so pathetic! NOT FOUND is not the whole truth. Be honest with scripture. He was not found worthy to take the book and open the seals in that search. But, not to worry, I am sure you will argue you way out of what the text really says.

What you are saying is, Jesus "prevailed" over being in transit! No, IN CONTEXT He prevailed over death to become the redeemer. Oh, not to worry, you imagine he was slaughtered on the cross before earth was created!

You think John missed it. Period.

 

[lamad]

No one is promoting that. You made it up. It's called a strawman fallacy.

You think he wasn't "worthy" until after he was the slain Lamb on the cross but he was slain Lamb from the foundation of the world so he WAS ALWAYS WORTHY.

No strawman. It was YOU that suggest Jesus was really slain from the foundation of the world - as if you could not tell the difference between God's pre-planing and the actual sacrifice.

You can say "He as always worthy" but the Angel was looking for the redeemer - the REAL one, not the planned one. What did Jesus do to BECOME the Redeemer? You know as well is I do: HE DIED, then HE ROSE. You are ignoring the ROSE part. His resurrection is hidden in the "prevailed."

However, I think you could argue you way of of salvation by faith if you set your mind to it. You have attacked and attacked, crying blasphemy, when I wonder if you even understand the word. I have never. Shame on you for saying it to a fellow brother. And all because you don't know what Jesus prevailed over. You imagine it was 'in transit." You imagine God's planning was sufficient so Jesus really did not have to die. You amaze me.

 

[lamad]

Lamad said,

He became the redeemer through shedding His blood, His obedience to death, and His resurrection. I think you know this.

Then eqw said,

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It is as if you think being a planned redeemer was all that was necessary.

What does the TEXT say?
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood

He was worthy to take the book BECAUSE He was slain. If this was a coin, flip it and see the other side. Was any man 'redeemed" before Jesus died?

 

[lamad]

No one is promoting that. You made it up. It's called a strawman fallacy.


You think he wasn't "worthy" until after he was the slain Lamb on the cross but he was slain Lamb from the foundation of the world so he WAS ALWAYS WORTHY.

You can say that but it does not make it true. Until He actually shed His blood and redeemed men, He was not authorized to take the book and open the seals.

What does the TEXT say?

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

He was worthy BECAUSE He redeemed men by His blood. It could not be any plainer. You want to twist this verse into saying He was always worthy because God PLANNED that He would be sacrificed.

 

[ewq1938]

Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood

Slain is a verb in the Perfect Passive Participle tense. The Greek perfect tense is like the English past tense. Humans may have a hard time with this but for God the Son, who is outside of time, is able to have been already slain before the act took place. So, yes, Jesus could have opened the seals any time he choose because he was always worthy but he choose the time just after the worthy one was not yet found. You need to learn how to study the Greek verb tenses and spend less time inventing your own personal blasphemies.

 

[lamad]

Slain is a verb in the Perfect Passive Participle tense. The Greek perfect tense is like the English past tense. Humans may have a hard time with this but for God the Son, who is outside of time, is able to have been already slain before the act took place. So, yes, Jesus could have opened the seals any time he choose because he was always worthy but he choose the time just after the worthy one was not yet found. You need to learn how to study the Greek verb tenses and spend less time inventing your own personal blasphemies.

Nice try: you will go to any lengths to sidestep what is really written. And, in fact, you err. it is a Greek AORIST tense. "Aorist" means "undefined." Although frequently translated as past tense, it really is undefined as far as tense. As one Greek scholar wrote, "not inflected to show tense." It is impossible to translate a verb into English showing no tense. So you can SAY its lie the English past tense, but anyone can say anything. Strong's definition of "Aorist:"

"Is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense"

So you are wrong yet again. It seems you will go to any length to disagree with John; Anyway, You are still wrong, it is a second Aorist passive indicative.

"Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood" In reading this with the idea of the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord, from the gospels, we know that just before He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down, He spoke with Mary. But before speaking with Mary, He rose from the dead. Of course He could not raise from the dead UNLESS He had before that died. This verse is telling us of His death and resurrection.

John is giving us a brief summary of the death, burial and Resurrection and ascension in Rev chapter 4 & 5. Some people, it seems, will never acknowledge this until they arrive in heaven.

You err yet again. Jesus stepped INTO time when He became a human. All His life as a man, He was subject to time. He had to fulfill the prophecy of the three days and three nights: TIME.

It seems you still don't get this. Would you say Jesus redeemed you BEFORE He came to earth? I mean, in reality.
WHEN was redemption really complete for YOU and for all of us? It was AFTER His death and resurrection. It is REALITY versus plans.

 

[ewq1938]

And, in fact, you err. it is a Greek AORIST tense. "Aorist" means "undefined." Although frequently translated as past tense, it really is undefined as far as tense.

Nice try: you will go to any lengths to sidestep what is really written. It is in the perfect tense:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-8.htm

It says it's in the perfect tense and that mean past tense.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/13/8/t_conc_1180008

Same thing there too.

I didn't read your reply any further because your posts are full of errors.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

WRONG again! The throne Paul said we would be seated on are found in Rev. 20!

I disagree.

Revelation 20:4a is "still-living" saints at the END of the trib, and where it states "and judgment was given unto them," this parallels [/is EQUIVALENT to] Daniel 7:22's "and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; [and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom]"... which is speaking specifically of TRIB saints who will be existing on the earth at the same time that vv.20-25,27 also speaks of (with v.25,27 providing the exact time-frame--during the TRIB yrs unfolding upon the earth).


Rev20:4b is speaking specifically of saints who will have DIED [/or been beheaded] during the second half of the trib years, and will have been "resurrected" at this point-in-time, that is, at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" age.




You seem to be wanting to insert "the Church which is His body" into all these passages pertaining to "the earth" (pertaining to ISRAEL's promises, in particular). Is there some reason you are inclined toward doing this?





[see again Col3:1-4 and Phil3:20a-21 and 1Cor6:14 and many other related passages pertaining to US / "the Church which is His body"]




Your posts are full of a blurring together into one big mish-mash of mush, things which should be (and ARE) DISTINCT.