Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well, for one thing, many people *do* take a mis-step just here, by taking on the faulty definition that, say, the "Amill-teachings" supply regarding the phrase "the Day of the Lord" (1Th5:2-3) as though it were merely "a singular 24-hr day," OR merely COMMENCING on the "singular 24-hr day" of His RETURN to the earth at Rev19, neither of which are the BIBLICAL definition of "the Day of the Lord"

...and Paul (in this same passage) states clearly that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES as... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... (same ones Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, Matt24:4 / Mk13:5, etc)... not after all of them play out!



[and THOSE are EQUIVALENT to the "far-future" SEALS that will take place in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, per Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 (7:3), aka the TRIB years leading UP TO His Return to the earth Rev19]

 

[FreeGrace2]

Acts 24:15 - "and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
What is clear here is a SINGLE resurrection for the "righteous" and a single resurrection for the "wicked".

Now, with this in mind, we have 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Obviously Jesus Christ is the FIRST to be resurrected, then "those who belong to Him", again the wording indicates a SINGLE resurrection.

Then we have Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The context here refers to the tribulational martyrs who have been resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. And their resurrection is described as the FIRST resurrection.

So, we have 2 resurrections noted in Acts 24:15; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Then we have a single resurrection for "those who belong to Him", that being all saved people.
Finally, we have tribulational martyrs resurrected AFTER the tribulation and THAT resurrection is described as the FIRST.

So, explain how there can be a pre-trib resurrection, then a post-trib resurrection and all of that can be described as one single resurrection.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Finally, we have tribulational martyrs resurrected AFTER the tribulation and THAT resurrection is described as the FIRST.

"Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART [G3313 - meros ] IN the resurrection, the first! Over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Rev20:6


(this is not saying that this point in time is the "first time" anyone will have been "resurrected" [or participated in "resurrection OF LIFE"]; In fact, the ones being resurrected in 20:4b are likely the LAST ones to have died that will participate in this "resurrection OF LIFE" [the OT saints will also be "resurrected" around this same point in time... "at the end of the days" referred to in Daniel 12, per Dan12:13 re: Daniel himself, i.e. OT saints]; those in 20:4a are "still-living" saints)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"last trumpet/trumpet of God"
Wonderful thank you. I have been conducting a study of trumpets for the last couple of weeks......It's definitely tricky.......

It would take a lot to convince me that the following doesn't have something to do with this ("the LAST trumpet"), esp since 1Th4:16 says, "the Lord Himself, IN shout, IN voice of archangel [/chief-messenger], IN trumpet of God, shall descend..."):


"After these things, I saw a door standing open in heaven. The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet [back in 1:10-16, Who had THERE identified Himself as "the FIRST and the LAST"] was [now] saying to me, "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these [things].'" Rev4:1.



IOW, Jesus Himself IS the *first* voice "as of a trumpet" (per Rev1:10) and He's saying here that He IS "the FIRST *and* the LAST" Himself! ("in the midst of the seven candlesticks [/churchES]" per 1:13, before He [in voice of a trumpet] commences to speak [to John] again in 4:1).

 

[lamad]

Could you provide the verse or passage where that is obviously stated?


Why shouldn't the vast majority (over 99%) of the church already be in heaven,? Since by the time the rapture gets around, whether pre or post trib, not very many will be left on earth to rapture. So of course the "church" will be seen in heaven. In fact, EVERY believer from Adam on is in heaven now.


Since post tribbers have actual verses that actually say what we believe (which is WHY we believe the rapture is post trib), why do you even bring up "ignorance"?

It seems better to apply that word to those who have NO clear verses about Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

You don't have any, and you know it. Or we'd all have seen it or them by now.

You don't have an ace up your sleeve.

Did you not notice that just three verses after Paul's classic rapture verse (4:17) He mentions, concerning times, "The Day of the Lord?" Why would Paul do that? It is because there will be no time between church age and the start of the DAY. One moment it will be church age, the the sudden rapture, and the next moment it is the Day of the Lord OR the Day of His wrath.

It is amazing how postribbers read " gather together" and then IMAGINE it is Paul's gathering. Never mind that it gathers from the wrong place. Never mind that it comes over 7 years past Paul's gathering. It says "gather!" Paul's rapture is called the "gathering." Therefore they are THE SAME! Period and end of story according to Postrib. This may be Posttrib's only real verse and they misunderstand it.

Did you not read that Jesus will bring WITH HIM those who have died in Christ? They much return to earth to get their BODIES back. Yes, the vast majority of the church will be in heaven but Jesus brings their spirits back with Him.

Then Paul gives us a paradigm: two groups of people with two totally different results at the same moment in time. Those alive and in Christ get raptured, and so get to "live together with Him," but the THEY and THEM who are not "In Christ" get "sudden destruction. Paul then compares the sudden destruction with God's wrath - THEY and THEM get appointments for His wrath, but those in Christ get raptured.

How many are the dead in Christ? We can only guess but many billions. I would not say 99% but the dead in Christ will be more than those who are alive and in Christ. But at the rapture, must believe all children go. So those who are alive and remain may well be half the world's population.

Since by the time the rapture gets around, whether pre or post trib, not very many will be left on earth to rapture.

Sorry, but at the REAL time of the rapture, people are going to be saying "peace and safety." I cannot picture anyone saying that after the days of GT. I think you are incorrect in this statement.

In fact, EVERY believer from Adam on is in heaven now.

I agree with you here.

Since post tribbers have actual verses that actually say what we believe (which is WHY we believe the rapture is post trib), why do you even bring up "ignorance"?

Sorry, my friend, the truth is, there is no single verse anywhere that tells us whether Paul's rapture will be pre, mid, or post. If there was such a verse, this would never be the main conversation in forums. People have been disagreeing on this for years.

I wonder if you noticed what you just did? I showed you the raptured church in heaven before the "trib" and you just blew it off as if they were dead saints. Did you notice there is not one hint in their description that they are dead - only spirits? "16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat."

It's OK. Pretribbers read all your favorite posttrib scriptures differently than you do. My point? I SHOWED YOU AN ACTUAL VERSE. Pretribbers DO have actual verses. You just read all of them differently.

By the way, I said "ignorant" of the scriptures because YOU said:

"The Olivet Discourse teaches post-tribulation rapture before the wrath of God "

Please show us ONE SCRIPTURE that would even hint of the wrath of God After the trib.

Posttrib rapture before the wrath of God. This statement defies all logic. One would have to do a complete rewrite of Revelation to come up with such a theory. in Revelation God's wrath is completed in the vials of His wrath, and they come during the days of GT.

In scripture, what happens "after the tribulation of those days?" It will be HIS COMING. To ARmageddon. Are you now talking about the SON'S wrath? Off the top of my head, I cannot think of ONE VERSE that speaks of the Son's wrath. Perhaps He is at Armageddon, but it is not written. No, the truth is, you rearranged Revelation to fit some theory! It will certainly be proven wrong.

 

[lamad]

It would take a lot to convince me that the following doesn't have something to do with this ("the LAST trumpet"), esp since 1Th4:16 says, "the Lord Himself, IN shout, IN voice of archangel [/chief-messenger], IN trumpet of God, shall descend..."):


"After these things, I saw a door standing open in heaven. The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet [back in 1:10-16, Who had THERE identified Himself as "the FIRST and the LAST"] was [now] saying to me, "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these [things].'" Rev4:1.



IOW, Jesus Himself IS the *first* voice "as of a trumpet" (per Rev1:10) and He's saying here that He IS "the FIRST *and* the LAST" Himself! ("in the midst of the seven candlesticks [/churchES]" per 1:13, before He [in voice of a trumpet] commences to speak [to John] again in 4:1).

No, sorry, Jesus is not the last trumpet. If it says a trumpet, then it is a trumpet. Did you miss the word AS? It is a simile. Jesus' voice may have sounded like a trumpet to John, but it was a voice, NOT a trumpet.

 

[lamad]

Acts 24:15 - "and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
What is clear here is a SINGLE resurrection for the "righteous" and a single resurrection for the "wicked".

Now, with this in mind, we have 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Obviously Jesus Christ is the FIRST to be resurrected, then "those who belong to Him", again the wording indicates a SINGLE resurrection.

Then we have Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The context here refers to the tribulational martyrs who have been resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. And their resurrection is described as the FIRST resurrection.

So, we have 2 resurrections noted in Acts 24:15; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Then we have a single resurrection for "those who belong to Him", that being all saved people.
Finally, we have tribulational martyrs resurrected AFTER the tribulation and THAT resurrection is described as the FIRST.

So, explain how there can be a pre-trib resurrection, then a post-trib resurrection and all of that can be described as one single resurrection.

You are thinking of "first" as in counting or sequence. John was thinking of first as in honor. Another verse translates this same Greek work as "Chief." It is the CHIEF of resurrections, being for the righteous.

Did you not realize you answered your own question?

But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ was the VERY FIRST resurrection into a glorified body. But His was 2000 years or so before the next! "first" cannot mean before any other.

You are right, there are only two TITLED resurrections. But for the chief of resurrections, there will be WAVES of people at different times. But all will take part in this chief of resurrections.

 

[lamad]

...and Paul (in this same passage) states clearly that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES as... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... (same ones Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, Matt24:4 / Mk13:5, etc)... not after all of them play out!



[and THOSE are EQUIVALENT to the "far-future" SEALS that will take place in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, per Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 (7:3), aka the TRIB years leading UP TO His Return to the earth Rev19]

You still don't get it. My friend, the seals - the first 5 - are HISTORY, not future! Why do you keep ignoring Jesus own words, "the end is not yet." He is TELLING You that He is not yet talking about end times! You will continue to be in error every time you copy and paste this nonsense.

Jesus words "the end is not yet" speaking of the , wars, famines and pestilences , PARALLEL seals 2-4. And John is very clear these seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

I know, you know better than John when the seals should be. NOT! Do you think God would not have a place in His book for the church age martyrs? Study the 5th seal. Ask God what He meant by "killed as they were."

 

[lamad]

Well, for one thing, many people *do* take a mis-step just here, by taking on the faulty definition that, say, the "Amill-teachings" supply regarding the phrase "the Day of the Lord" (1Th5:2-3) as though it were merely "a singular 24-hr day," OR merely COMMENCING on the "singular 24-hr day" of His RETURN to the earth at Rev19, neither of which are the BIBLICAL definition of "the Day of the Lord"

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Anyone with an honest mind will agree that the trumpet judgments are God fulfilling what this tells us the Day of the Lord will accomplish. Then the vial judgments continue the destruction that the trumpets started. We see already that the Day of the Lord has extended for the entire 70th week.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

that the Day of the Lord has extended for the entire 70th week.

That is what I am saying.

Indeed it INCLUDES the "7 yrs" (70th Week / "For ONE WEEK"<--this is when it *ARRIVES* at the START of THAT); as well as including the entire MK age / 1000 yrs (ALL "earthly-located").

TheDivineWatermark said:
...and Paul (in this same passage) states clearly that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES as... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... (same ones Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, Matt24:4 / Mk13:5, etc)... not after all of them play out!


[and THOSE are EQUIVALENT to the "far-future" SEALS that will take place in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, per Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 (7:3), aka the TRIB years leading UP TO His Return to the earth Rev19]

[each related passage speaks of a particular "person" at its STARTING point: Matt24:4/Mk13:5 and Rev6:2 and 2Th2:7b-8a and Dan9:27a/26b]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Why do you keep ignoring Jesus own words, "the end is not yet."

The END of the 70th Week--the "AGE" *they* were standing in and speaking out from... (that's the SUBJECT they were asking about, aka "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" per v.3 and what He had PREVIOUSLY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50).

"The END and the AGE" will CONCLUDE [END] upon His "RETURN" to the earth, and *that* is what Jesus is saying is *not yet* at the time that "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" will be existing upon the earth (at the START of the trib yrs [i.e. the SEALS]).

 

[lamad]

Your claim of "no time between chruch age and start of the DAY" is just a construct. You have no evidence.

btw, I asked Ab, so I'll ask you as well.

Acts 24:15 says " and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

And 1 Cor 15:23 also indicates by the wording that there will be a SINGLE resurrection for "those who belong to Him".

And finally, Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of martyred saints as the FIRST resurrection, in contrast to the unbelievers, who will make up the SECOND resurrection.

All of which shows that all believers will be resurrected/raptured in one event, called the FIRST resurrection. And that is after the Tribulation.

Explain that.


Sure did.


Show me a verse where raptured/resurrected believers go to heaven.


Sure. It is pure speculation that the "heat" of the wrath will be constant throughout the Trib. It will be during a lull in the action when people will say that.


2 Thess 2:1-3 is quite clearly speaking of the rapture being at the Second Coming.


Well, lots of people just ignore/reject truth.


Because they ARE. They haven't received their resurrection bodies yet. They WILL when Jesus comes back to earth. See above.


Do you really think that the souls/spirits of the dearly departed will still get hungry, cold?


What you pretribbers don't have is any verse that indicates that raptured believers go to heaven. That's your achilles heel.


The ONLY VERSE that would prove pretrib rapture is a verse that clearly shows raptured believers going to heaven. That's the ONLY WAY to prove your theory.


This isn't about my feel good. It's about truth. And 2 Thess 2:1-3 is the truth. But, as you have said, you guys read verses "differently".

It is obvious that only one side can be right. And without any verses saying that raptured believers go to heaven, you CAN'T be right.

Esp since 2 Thess 2:1-3 proves otherwise.

Why is it you demand things over and over, and when they are presented you just blow them off? Do you ever really read these posts?

Which of the two resurrections shown in Rev. 20 - since there are ONLY TWO - would Jesus own resurrection fit in?

All of which shows that all believers will be resurrected/raptured in one event, called the FIRST resurrection. And that is after the Tribulation.

That is only your sloppy exegesis and wild human reasoning. When will you learn that GREEK came before English? Sadly every English translation just copied the first.
Every Spanish bible uses the word Primera, from the Latin prīmārius. What is it's meaning
One of the first, or first rank, chief, principal, excellent, remarkable.

Every French translation uses the word première (from the same Latin word Primarius.
the head of the cabinet in France or Italy or certain other countries; first minister; prime minister.
a chief officer.
adjective
first in rank; chief; leading.
first in time; earliest; oldest

Your thinking that it must come before any other is in error, as proven by Jesus' own resurrection.

And that is after the Tribulation. This is nothing but human reasoning gone wrong.

 

[lamad]

The END of the 70th Week--the "AGE" *they* were standing in and speaking out from... (that's the SUBJECT they were asking about, aka "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" per v.3 and what He had PREVIOUSLY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50).

"The END and the AGE" will CONCLUDE [END] upon His "RETURN" to the earth, and *that* is what Jesus is saying is *not yet* at the time that "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" will be existing upon the earth (at the START of the trib yrs [i.e. the SEALS]).

The truth is, Jesus did not have "the church" in this picture at all. When He said "the end is not yet, He was talking about THE ENTIRE 70th week - as proven by His jump to the midpoint abomination. Therefore "the end is not yet, must be talking about the time BEFORE the 70th week.

If you had any understanding of the seals, you would recognize that after the church was sent out - seal #1, then Satan was given permission to try and stop the church, using wars, famines, pestilences, and wild beasts. But God LIMITED Him to 1/4 of the earth. In other words, if Satan could confine the gospel to that 1/4, he would prove God a liar. Of course He failed. But what did he CAUSE?

The 5th seal martyrs of the church age.

If we just leave the book along and understand it, not try to rearrange it, John moves straight through history starting with Jesus taking the book from the Father when He ascended.
Seal 1: the church sent out
Seal 2: the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel by WARS
Seal 3: the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel by FAMINES
Seal 4: the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel by Pestilences.
Seal 5: the martyrs of the church age. They are told they will have a long wait until the final church age martyr.
Seal 6: the start of the judgment promised to come after the final martyr.
SEal 7: the official start of the 70th week.
First 6 trumpets: God systematically starting to destroy the world and the sinners in the world.
7th trumpet: marks the midpoint abomination - proven by the fleeing begining shortly after
John sees the Beast rising Chapter 13.
Then the False Prophet rising Chapter 13.
We are told what they will do, but written as a parenthesis. Chapter 13.
Chapter 14: God sends warnings: three of them by three angels The days of GT will start soon after this warning
Chapter 15, The beheaded killed during days of GT BEGIN to arrive in heaven.
Chapter 16. The great killing machine of the Beast and False prophet is at its peak...
Chapter 16: God pours out the vials to SHORTEN those days of GT.
Chapters 17 & 18 A close up look at the destruction of Babylon, the city of Jerusalem.
Chapter 19: marriage and supper in heaven; then Jesus comes to Armageddon.
Chapter 20, into the Millennial Reign.

See how that flows straight through time.

By the way, WHERE have two world wars started?
WHERE did the black Plague hit and take out many?
Where have many of the famines taken place?

I submit ALL in the 1/4 where Satan has been allowed to work to stop the gospel.

 

[Runningman]

Why is it you demand things over and over, and when they are presented you just blow them off? Do you ever really read these posts?

Which of the two resurrections shown in Rev. 20 - since there are ONLY TWO - would Jesus own resurrection fit in?


That is only your sloppy exegesis and wild human reasoning. When will you learn that GREEK came before English? Sadly every English translation just copied the first.
Every Spanish bible uses the word Primera, from the Latin prīmārius. What is it's meaning
One of the first, or first rank, chief, principal, excellent, remarkable.

Every French translation uses the word première (from the same Latin word Primarius.
the head of the cabinet in France or Italy or certain other countries; first minister; prime minister.
a chief officer.
adjective
first in rank; chief; leading.
first in time; earliest; oldest

Your thinking that it must come before any other is in error, as proven by Jesus' own resurrection.

And that is after the Tribulation. This is nothing but human reasoning gone wrong.

You keep projecting a pre-trib rapture where one doesn't exist. There's no verses for it. Meanwhile, Free2Grace makes beautiful scriptural points. It's almost like you reject what the Bible actually says.

 

[lamad]

That is what I am saying.

Indeed it INCLUDES the "7 yrs" (70th Week / "For ONE WEEK"<--this is when it *ARRIVES* at the START of THAT); as well as including the entire MK age / 1000 yrs (ALL "earthly-located").

[each related passage speaks of a particular "person" at its STARTING point: Matt24:4/Mk13:5 and Rev6:2 and 2Th2:7b-8a and Dan9:27a/26b]

Hallelujah! We agree on ONE POINT!

Why do you keep doing this: picking out one verse and trying to form a doctrine there: That is wrong!
Why not just read the next verse and see that your theory is OFF?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Jesus is talking about the time from HIM on to the final week What we call "the church age:" "the end is not yet:" I have not yet started talking about the final week.

 

[lamad]

You keep projecting a pre-trib rapture where one doesn't exist. There's no verses for it. Meanwhile, Free2Grace makes beautiful scriptural points. It's almost like you reject what the Bible actually says.

Why do you keep saying this: MILLIONS of people find pretrib in scripture. The problem is, due to your preconceived theories, you can't see them! Case in point: the great crowd seen in heaven right after Paul's prewrath rapture. it is almost like you reject what the bible actually says!

 

[Runningman]

121 pages later these verses still just won't go away:

Matthew 24:29-32
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Runningman]

Why do you keep saying this: MILLIONS of people find pretrib in scripture. The problem is, due to your preconceived theories, you can't see them! Case in point: the great crowd seen in heaven right after Paul's prewrath rapture. it is almost like you reject what the bible actually says!

Millions of people are wrong then. The Bible is the only truth.

 

[lamad]

You would have an impossible time proving that since the context surrounding the usage of the 7th trump in conjunction with the return of Christ, rapture, and resurrection are consistent through scripture.

This is MYTH! The 7th trumpet in revelation is MIDPOINT. Are you now changing to a midtrib rapture?

Did you not understand that the 5 mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time are COUNTDOWNS from the midpoint to the end:
42 months of trampling chapter 11
1260 days of testifying Chapter 11
1260 days of fleeing Chapter 12
3.5 years of protection chapter 12
42 months of authority chapter 13.

These things PROVE these three chapters are MIDPOINT CHAPTERs.

Are you going to allow this to go right over your head? You could learn something!

 

[Runningman]

Why do you keep saying this: MILLIONS of people find pretrib in scripture. The problem is, due to your preconceived theories, you can't see them! Case in point: the great crowd seen in heaven right after Paul's prewrath rapture. it is almost like you reject what the bible actually says!

Paul preached post-tribulation rapture and that's beyond disputable based off of his eschatology in 2 Thessalonians 2. Everything else Paul said in other verses is post-tribulational rapture because Paul never contradicts himself or reverses his eschatology.