50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
- Thread starter cv5
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
That depends what YOU mean by Great Persecution. From GOD, NO. From the World, COULD BE, unless chooses to remove us First.
I believe this VERSE will absolutely answer your question.
1 Thessalonians 5:8-9 (ESV)
8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
It also depended on which group of Saints HE is talking to.
O.T. Saints are part of the Dead in Messiah, and will be raised first at the Rapture.
N.T. Saints that have died, are part of the Dead in Messiah, Christ.
N.T. Saints still living at the Rapture, we will be CAUGHT UP to forever be with CHRIST, in the clouds.
Tribulation Saints, will be beheaded by the Antichrist, but the very last one will be beheaded near the Mid-Trib or shortly there after.
Revelation 6:9-11 (ESV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Revelation 20:4-5 (HCSB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
I used to be Volunteer Protestant Prison Chaplain. I would explain to the inmates, who got all MACHO and say I can take whatever the Antichrist wants to dish out, including the beheading if I do not take the Mark. You say that, "BUT CAN YOU WATCH AS HE CHOPS OFF THE HEADS OF YOUR CHILDREN AND NOT TAKE THE MARK, TO SAVE THEM." That made them think a lot.
You know, our theology could only be inches apart.
You consider Tribulation Saints, part of the Church Age.
I do not, a Separate group of Saints, so we have to be Raptured before the first Head of the Tribulation Saints is Chopped off.
The reason I say that is the Tribulation Saints pop up in Heaven after we are already their.
O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints are those according to Mal. 3:6, the LORD DOES NOT CHANGE. Therefore both are Saved and both are not destined to wrath, and it maybe these that did not make the RAPTURE, but KNOW WHY, are given a second chance at HIS MERCY and Grace.
Here is were I get the fact that we are already there, when the Tribulation Saints arrive.
Revelation 4:4 (HCSB)
4 Around that throne were 24 thrones, and on the thrones sat 24 elders dressed in white clothes, with gold crowns on their heads.
ELDERS of the CHURCH AGE, is a UNIQUE Office of the CHURCH AGE, that does not happen in Jewish Synagogue. Yes the Village has Elders, but not the Synagogues. OH, and that is a BIG PRETRIBULATION CLUE.
It's a good post, but you made it look as if the 5th seal martyrs were martyr during the days of GT. That simply cannot be true, The days of GT Jesus spoke of will not begin until the last half of the week. Then from John we learn that the Beast and False prophet or responsible for these days. Then we see God warning not to take the mark in chapter 14, and finally, we see the martyrs of the tribulation starting to show up in heaven in chapter 15: those mentioned in 20:4-5. The truth is, the 5th seal martyrs are church age martyrs. Most people reading about the seals are 2000 years again of Jesus and John. John does not get to the 70th week until the 7th seal.
Except that when the days of GT reach a peak, God then pours out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days. The truth then is, God's wrath and Satan's wrath are simultaneous.
Next, the AC does not come to power until after the midpoint. It is LATE in the 70th week that the says of GT come.
Oh, plenty of people die in the first half due to the trumpet judgments.
Next, the AC does not come to power until after the midpoint. It is LATE in the 70th week that the says of GT come.
Oh, plenty of people die in the first half due to the trumpet judgments.
Good post, but your timing is off on the sealing. They are sealed just before the trumpet judgments begin, and they begin with the 70th week.
God has marked the 70th week wish 7's: it starts with the 7th seal, midpoint 7th trumpet and end is 7th vial.
John was marching right through the seals, but after the 6th went into an intermission. The reason is simple: God wants to see TWO EVENTS completed before the HURT starts with the trumpets.
1. The 144,000 must be sealed.
2. The church must be safely seen in heaven. John accomplishes both of these before the 7th seal starts the Week.
God has marked the 70th week wish 7's: it starts with the 7th seal, midpoint 7th trumpet and end is 7th vial.
John was marching right through the seals, but after the 6th went into an intermission. The reason is simple: God wants to see TWO EVENTS completed before the HURT starts with the trumpets.
1. The 144,000 must be sealed.
2. The church must be safely seen in heaven. John accomplishes both of these before the 7th seal starts the Week.
There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)
The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected
The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees
All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30
Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected
Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt
Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected
The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees
All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30
Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected
Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt
Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
I can see you have serveral things Wrong, so if you would like to get it all straightened out, Here it the Best Teacher on the Subject.
THE ABSOLUTE BEST SERMON SERIES I have ever listen to it Dr. John MacAurther in dating back to earlie 80's. I listened to THEM FOUR TIMES each in my ealy years as Born Again Christian. It was my spiritual MILK.
This was a sermon verse by Verse thru the entire book, stating with: A Jet Tour Through Revelation that was aired on Dec 5, 1982, and it will take you if you listen on Hole a Night, through the whole Series, 37 Night nights to geth through it all.
https://www.gty.org/library/resources/sermons-library/scripture/1?book=66&chapter=0 Don't worry, they are free to listen to.
If you ascribe the church to the white horseman ( error), then what time period are you ascribing to the other 3?
Because the 144 k are called out and sealed immediately after the 4 horsemen.
The martyrs are confined under the altar but the innumerable number (beheaded left behind carnal believers) are before the throne.( not confined under the altar.)
Jesus said for them to stay confined untill their number is fulfilled.
Innumerable number of martyrs (out if the gt...early on) is the martyrs fulfilled.
They are the 5 foolish virgins.
Note they had dirty robes.
By basing your timing on the white horseman being the church age, it corrupts your view on the First half of the gt. Gt = 7 yr great tribulation.
Because the 144 k are called out and sealed immediately after the 4 horsemen.
The martyrs are confined under the altar but the innumerable number (beheaded left behind carnal believers) are before the throne.( not confined under the altar.)
Jesus said for them to stay confined untill their number is fulfilled.
Innumerable number of martyrs (out if the gt...early on) is the martyrs fulfilled.
They are the 5 foolish virgins.
Note they had dirty robes.
By basing your timing on the white horseman being the church age, it corrupts your view on the First half of the gt. Gt = 7 yr great tribulation.