Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??
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Having spent two years studying this subject and written a paper for a Ph.D. and which included reading over 60 books dealing with leadership in the church, my conclusions are quite biblical as I don't think that over 60 different authors are wrong.
In the New Testament there are 26 verses outside of Timothy and Titus that speak of leadership of the church. They all say the same thing. The leaders are the Apostles, the Prophets and the Elders. Not once does it mention pastors or women. If that isn't conclusive I don't know what is.
Because of the very specific nature of Paul's instructions to Timothy, I do not need to indulge is speculation about women this and women that. And apart from an Elder being the husband of one wife it says HE has to rule HIS household well. If you have studied the background to the New Testament Church as I have done you will find that the husbands were head of the house. They were not head of the house because his wife said so.
At the passover meal which all of the Jewish Christians woud have celebrated, the meal was always presided over by the eldest MALE member of the family. Never a female.
In the New Testament there are 26 verses outside of Timothy and Titus that speak of leadership of the church. They all say the same thing. The leaders are the Apostles, the Prophets and the Elders. Not once does it mention pastors or women. If that isn't conclusive I don't know what is.
Because of the very specific nature of Paul's instructions to Timothy, I do not need to indulge is speculation about women this and women that. And apart from an Elder being the husband of one wife it says HE has to rule HIS household well. If you have studied the background to the New Testament Church as I have done you will find that the husbands were head of the house. They were not head of the house because his wife said so.
At the passover meal which all of the Jewish Christians woud have celebrated, the meal was always presided over by the eldest MALE member of the family. Never a female.
Pardon me but the church does not appoint it's leadership in accordance with Timothy, by and large, perhaps the sect known as the Brethren do. So you all are arguing from a false platform. You are still following the RCC pattern of leadership. The priest has become pastor. some other functionary is the district supervisor or bishop and the General secretary is Pope. The present leadership is dysfunctional.
That in large measure is what is wrong with the church. Pastors are parachuted in from bible college.
You are objecting to being led by women but don't mind that you are led by men who cannot show that they were called to leadership.
That in large measure is what is wrong with the church. Pastors are parachuted in from bible college.
You are objecting to being led by women but don't mind that you are led by men who cannot show that they were called to leadership.
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Not being funny but anyone who reads basic scripture knows the bible states the man is head of his house hold. No phd required. (Jesus had no phd for the record, nor did the fishermen he chose to change the world). The pharasees studied long and hard, anf knew nothing when it came to what Christ was teaching.
You neglected to cover the situation for the household that has no man. But that is by the by as they say.
Also - you can find plenty if not an equal amount of books by authors disagreeing with those you have read. You can also find books that tell you you can live off fresh air and nothing else. What is your point? Because someone wrote it in a book it must be true? Hardly a good basis for being so dogmatic.
I find so much lacking in the way people deal with this topic it really is quite depressing.
It’s a waste of time “discussing” it. As we all think we are right - despite none of us having all knowledge and understanding on this or any matter.
It appears that you think others who disagree with you - and the “60 authors who can’t be wrong” - must be uneducated, unspiritual and/ or intellectually deficient. Not sure that is the best way to think of others who know the Lord, but you must feel entitled to that opinion, and that it is warranted.
So, I won’t waste anymore of your or my time engaging in this topic with you.
You neglected to cover the situation for the household that has no man. But that is by the by as they say.
Also - you can find plenty if not an equal amount of books by authors disagreeing with those you have read. You can also find books that tell you you can live off fresh air and nothing else. What is your point? Because someone wrote it in a book it must be true? Hardly a good basis for being so dogmatic.
I find so much lacking in the way people deal with this topic it really is quite depressing.
It’s a waste of time “discussing” it. As we all think we are right - despite none of us having all knowledge and understanding on this or any matter.
It appears that you think others who disagree with you - and the “60 authors who can’t be wrong” - must be uneducated, unspiritual and/ or intellectually deficient. Not sure that is the best way to think of others who know the Lord, but you must feel entitled to that opinion, and that it is warranted.
So, I won’t waste anymore of your or my time engaging in this topic with you.
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With a little study from a Greek concordance, you can see that this word succourer/helper/prostatis is in direct context with Phoebe being a servant/deacon, the evidence we have is that she was not in the office of deacon but was a servant/helper of the church like we all are in different ways.
I understand how important it is for you to think that Pheobe was a woman Deacon, but the Greek language and grammar just does not allow it.
Keep trying though brother as study makes us all better belivers.
I understand how important it is for you to think that Pheobe was a woman Deacon, but the Greek language and grammar just does not allow it.
Keep trying though brother as study makes us all better belivers.
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WRONG!
The Pentecostal - AOG- does not follow the Bible directions of 1 Timothy, but the Southern Baptist Convention does!
Just so you will not argue that point...............
"Southern Baptists yesterday voted to effectively ban female pastors, part of a broader shift toward codifying a more fundamentalist philosophy for the nation's largest and most visible Protestant denomination.
At their annual convention in Orlando, leaders of the 15.8 million-member denomination voted overwhelmingly to revise the Baptist Faith and Message Statement--the closest thing the faith has to an official creed--to oppose homosexuality, adultery, pornography, abortion and "all manner of deviant and pagan sexuality," as well as limit the office of pastor to men."
Source: Southern Baptists Vote To Ban Female Pastors - The Washington Post
The Pentecostal - AOG- does not follow the Bible directions of 1 Timothy, but the Southern Baptist Convention does!
Just so you will not argue that point...............
"Southern Baptists yesterday voted to effectively ban female pastors, part of a broader shift toward codifying a more fundamentalist philosophy for the nation's largest and most visible Protestant denomination.
At their annual convention in Orlando, leaders of the 15.8 million-member denomination voted overwhelmingly to revise the Baptist Faith and Message Statement--the closest thing the faith has to an official creed--to oppose homosexuality, adultery, pornography, abortion and "all manner of deviant and pagan sexuality," as well as limit the office of pastor to men."
Source: Southern Baptists Vote To Ban Female Pastors - The Washington Post
I am absolutly sure you are a well educated person and able to read and function well.
I am just a country boy from the great Promised Land and I did not need a dr. degree or a phd shingel on my door.
I simply read what GOD SAID....and I believed it and I did not have to read anyone elses opinion.
GOD SAID in 1 Timothy 3:1-2..........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".
How in the world can that be so hard to read and grasp????????
I am just a country boy from the great Promised Land and I did not need a dr. degree or a phd shingel on my door.
I simply read what GOD SAID....and I believed it and I did not have to read anyone elses opinion.
GOD SAID in 1 Timothy 3:1-2..........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".
How in the world can that be so hard to read and grasp????????
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Brother old Major 
I like what you stated below and will add my comments below your two statements for review.
This is why you stated “I will give you what I think is the reason behinds God's direction.”
1.
The creation order is the first reason Paul gives for prohibiting women from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul doesn’t ground his command in cultural considerations or a particular problem with the women in the Ephesian church. Rather, he grounds his command in creation. He says that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is that....
“Adam was formed first, then Eve”. Paul means that God established Adam as the head and authority of his wife, Eve. God designed men to lead.
Brother, I think it was partly cultural and the best way he knew to try to establish order. Just like when Israel found themselves in the deserts and they thought abandoned by Moses they went with what they knew. Started making golden idols like in Egypt.
However, let’s go with what you stated, Adam was first then Eve. Now if this correct? Then my question is this. Since the church is seen as the bride of Christ, which has come from the same lineage as Israel. Us being born again becoming betrothed to the Son. That we are married to the the groom Jesus the Christ which is the head of the church. Then being all women and subservient now, who amount is then is made worthy to speak on behalf of the head? Is the bride divided? What do we see in the teachings of how a man should treat a woman and how a woman should treat a man in marriage? Then if being born again we are now being given the dower of marriage paid by Jesus, holding to a contract for the marriage supper being the bride of Christ, and therefore subservient to our groom the head Jesus. Then again, who is the woman and who is the head?
2.
The nature of women is the second reason Paul gives for prohibiting them from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul says, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (1 Tim 2:14). Paul is saying something about the natural constitution of men and women, that men as a class are naturally more fitted to teach and have authority in the church, but women are not.
Dr. Wayne Grudem says, “This is by far the most common viewpoint in the history of the interpretation of this passage” (Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth 70).
I like what you stated below and will add my comments below your two statements for review.
This is why you stated “I will give you what I think is the reason behinds God's direction.”
1.
The creation order is the first reason Paul gives for prohibiting women from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul doesn’t ground his command in cultural considerations or a particular problem with the women in the Ephesian church. Rather, he grounds his command in creation. He says that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is that....
“Adam was formed first, then Eve”. Paul means that God established Adam as the head and authority of his wife, Eve. God designed men to lead.
Brother, I think it was partly cultural and the best way he knew to try to establish order. Just like when Israel found themselves in the deserts and they thought abandoned by Moses they went with what they knew. Started making golden idols like in Egypt.
However, let’s go with what you stated, Adam was first then Eve. Now if this correct? Then my question is this. Since the church is seen as the bride of Christ, which has come from the same lineage as Israel. Us being born again becoming betrothed to the Son. That we are married to the the groom Jesus the Christ which is the head of the church. Then being all women and subservient now, who amount is then is made worthy to speak on behalf of the head? Is the bride divided? What do we see in the teachings of how a man should treat a woman and how a woman should treat a man in marriage? Then if being born again we are now being given the dower of marriage paid by Jesus, holding to a contract for the marriage supper being the bride of Christ, and therefore subservient to our groom the head Jesus. Then again, who is the woman and who is the head?
2.
The nature of women is the second reason Paul gives for prohibiting them from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul says, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (1 Tim 2:14). Paul is saying something about the natural constitution of men and women, that men as a class are naturally more fitted to teach and have authority in the church, but women are not.
Dr. Wayne Grudem says, “This is by far the most common viewpoint in the history of the interpretation of this passage” (Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth 70).
A brother in Christ[/QUOTE]
You did not "Reply" to my post and I just now saw your comments. I will do my best to answer your positions.
#1.
You said.......
"However, let’s go with what you stated, Adam was first then Eve. Now if this correct? "
Lets be on the same page......YES, it is correct NOT IF IT IS CORRECT! The Bible says that God made Adam and Eve from Adam.
Your premise church comes from Israel is flawed. SO from the beginning there is a problem. Israel is Israel and the promised made to Abraham are from them NOT the Church. The Church has not taken the place of Israel.
Promises made to Israel are still going to be kept in the future. We can be sure that all God has said is true and will take place, because of His character and consistency. The Church does not replace Israel and should not expect a symbolic fulfillment of the promises of the Old Covenant. As one reads Scripture, it is necessary to keep Israel and the Church separate.
Since Christ is the HEAD of the church, He has placed MAN as the head of the WOMAN. That in no way divides the Church or the Bride if you prefer.
God made both male-female equality and male headship, properly defined, and they were instituted by God at creation and remain permanent, beneficent aspects of human existence even to today.
Man and woman are equal in the sense that they bear God’s image equally.
Let me also define male headship:
In the partnership of two spiritually equal human beings, man and woman, the man bears the primary responsibility to lead the partnership in a God-glorifying direction.
Evangelical feminism argues, which is where YOU are coming from, that God created man and woman as equals in a sense that excludes male headship. Male headship/domination (feminism acknowledges no distinction) was imposed upon Eve as a penalty for her part in the fall. It follows, in this view, that a woman’s redemption in Christ releases her from the punishment of male headship.
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#2.
You said......................
The nature of women is the second reason Paul gives for prohibiting them from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Brother, what happened when Adam told God she made me do it? Was he any less guilty then her? She didn’t make him eat it.
Your argument is well founded, however you are questioning WHY GOD DID WHAT HE DID.
Yes, Eve sinned and blamed Satan. Yes, Adam sinned and blamed Eve. YES we are all sinners. Yes No one made Adam eat the fruit.
ALL of that comes under....."FREEDOM OF CHOICE".
God placed a TEST in front of our grandparents. "Do not eat from TAHT tree".
They disobeyed God, sinned and ate the fruit and then God did what God said He would do. The result was that MAN was paced in authority over the woman because the woman was the FIRST to disobey God.
Life is nothing more that a set of Choices, those choices effect our lives and effect destiny.
Are you kidding me????
I mean NO disrespect to you my friend......but have you actually read the Bible at all? Your comments say that you haven't!!!!
Ephesians 5:11
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
2 Timothy 4:2-4
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.
I mean NO disrespect to you my friend......but have you actually read the Bible at all? Your comments say that you haven't!!!!
Ephesians 5:11
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
2 Timothy 4:2-4
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.
That is a self righteous statement. You are saying that only those who follow the AOG teachings are spirit lead and that is a false thesis.
EVERY born again Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit and whatever church they belong to is then lead by that same Holy Spirit my friend.
READING and understanding the written Word of God is NOT human logic. It is wisdom that is taught from God to us for those who want to know.
EVERY born again Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit and whatever church they belong to is then lead by that same Holy Spirit my friend.
READING and understanding the written Word of God is NOT human logic. It is wisdom that is taught from God to us for those who want to know.
You defy the very clear teaching of Gods words below
Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.
Silence, Subjection, Obedience
(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)
1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.
Silence, Subjection, Obedience
(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)
1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
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