Deception. Where do we draw the line?

[Lanolin]

She came from a rich family they both had plenty but she was afraid of him. He would punish her and the kids physical
y and verbally...I witnessed it more than once. My own home was abusive too so I understand what they went through. And I came from a strict culture too...one where the female children are considered property of the father until marriage even after 18. so I do understand how it is different for some of us.

It is called domestic abuse, I read about it. I read a lot of secular literature as I believe the church hasn't caught up yet with what women need.

things like that most people would call the police, get a restraining order and get lawyers involved. Its wrong to withold finances from your spouse. I dont know why people do it. (abuse each other I mean)

 

[EnglishChick]

It's like slavery and racism. Once considered normal but thank God we know better now! I very much believe in progress and science including social science and psychology.are tools that can be used for good or for bad.

I don't agree with progressive.views if they go against the bible but when i searched the scriptures prohibiting medicine of any kind or from women having jobs etc I couldn't find any. So I don't think God has an issue with !y beliefs and if He does He will tell me. It won't affect my standing with Him as His blood has covered all my sins I will ever do or have done it

some peopel.tell me.I'm using witchcraft.and sorcery for using paychiatry and psychotherapy and taking psych meds and some Christian "prophets" have told me personally that the Lord has told them I have lost my salvation because of it and will go to hell if I don't repent. I choose to stick to the word of God. I do believe in the gifts and I have been involved in prophetic ministry myself but o nce.we.are born again we are safe from God's condemnation

I don't believe God likes me v much. Loves me yes but I think He disgusted with me . Yet I know the bible says am going to heaven because I am God's child and have been born again. So even though I sometimes see my own strict abusive fathers face screaming curses at me when I try to pray, and I don't have a high opinion of myself.I believe the bible says that Jesus said "it is finished!" and All those who have trusted only. in the finished work of the cross to save them will be in paradise one day with Him. Not all of us will get rewards though..if we disobey we.are considered the least in the kingdom .

 

[Lanolin]

I think in a lot of cases people think deception is better than honesty if honesty gets you in trouble. But then think of Jesus he could have lied and avoided crucifixtion, but he didnt.

Yes he suffered for telling the truth. But the truth sets people free.

Being truthful doesnt mean you always tell someone everything though. sometimes you just dont say anything. I recall Jesus saying to others not to tell others about his miracles, because the Pharisees were after him to kill him. But he didnt say lie about it, just not tell them.

 

[EnglishChick]

things like that most people would call the police, get a restraining order and get lawyers involved. Its wrong to withold finances from your spouse. I dont know why people do it. (abuse each other I mean)

This guy was the pillar of the community . who would have believed my friend?. some churches don't allow divorce or separation. Sadly Jesus words have been twisted into rules instead of the guidelines they were expected to be.

 

[EnglishChick]

I think in a lot of cases people think deception is better than honesty if honesty gets you in trouble. But then think of Jesus he could have lied and avoided crucifixtion, but he didnt.

Yes he suffered for telling the truth. But the truth sets people free.

Being truthful doesnt mean you always tell someone everything though. sometimes you just dont say anything. I recall Jesus saying to others not to tell others about his miracles, because the Pharisees were after him to kill him. But he didnt say lie about it, just not tell them.

He suffered so we don't have to go to hell. It was His choice. Not the same for my friend and her mum and siblings

 

[Lanolin]

well we have a forgiving God who, if we confess our faults to, will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Hes not a God who will chop your head off for being honest.

 

[Lanolin]

english chick sounds like you were around people who were in churches that operate like cults. People need to be free from them. Somewhere along the way people made a choice to be part of them though, they probably had no idea what they were joining.

 

[EnglishChick]

things like that most people would call the police, get a restraining order and get lawyers involved. Its wrong to withold finances from your spouse. I dont know why people do it. (abuse each other I mean)

Am pretty.sure she wasn't making it up. She used to lash out at other kids and was v. Angry.a lot of the time. Hurting people hurt others. I was bullied at school and looking back I don't think those kids had secure homes either!

and if she was making it up then she did need psychiatric help. That's a mental illness to fake things like this repeatedly. Am sure Jesus would be v gentle with this girl. He was kind to the woman who was going to be stoned for adultery and that woman was in sound mind, as far.as.we know.

I have changed my concept of God from an angry judgemental ogre to a kind gentle.one who disciplines out of love and doesn't throw us away when we mess up.

Lawlessness?.probably. But I know my heart motives are what Jesus is most concerned with. Getting into heaven or accepted by Jesus isn't like some college exam! I'm not saying doctrine doesn't matter.But it is possible to not have perfect doctrine and still be loved by Jesus


A lot of preachers these days claim only a handful are saved. I am sure it must be more than that because the bible makes it clear.we.are saved by trusting only in Jesus . Good works come from salvation. Not other way round

 

[EnglishChick]

I can never accept that some people are just evil. I believe in original sin nature and we.so have it but I do also think there are usually reasons why we do certain sins . And someone who is lying about being abused for no gain (e.g. Financial or revenge etc) is not well in their minds. Because even reprobate unbelievers know that lying about abuse is a sick thing to do. So yeah, either she was telling truth or she was sick in her mind needing healing not condemnation

 

[Lanolin]

well we dont really know everyones motives. Why would Mrs Potiphar lie about Joseph trying to rape her when she was the one trying to seduce him.

I thought that she did it to cover up her own sin and try and blame someone else. People do project, but I reckon they dont need help. They need to stop lying.

 

[EnglishChick]

well we dont really know everyones motives. Why would Mrs Potiphar lie about Joseph trying to rape her when she was the one trying to seduce him.

I thought that she did it to cover up her own sin and try and blame someone else. People do project, but I reckon they dont need help. They need to stop lying.

but we not talking

well we dont really know everyones motives. Why would Mrs Potiphar lie about Joseph trying to rape her when she was the one trying to seduce him.

I thought that she did it to cover up her own sin and try and blame someone else. People do project, but I reckon they dont need help. They need to stop lying.

If the motive is to gain attention or sympathy that is a cry for help, an unmet need that needs meeting. So yes this young lady was right to seek help.

she was 17 at the time old enough to live her own life!.

I knew this family and knowing what I know the parents actions were wrong. In the UK denying your child medical help they need is classed as neglect

And I don't have time for any religion that says science including psychology is occult or witchcraft. I like Jesus but I don't do the religion part of i t. I mean I go to church and sometimes take communion there but aside from that I don't practice the religious side of it at all. I do pray but that to me is a relationship not a religion.

and as for salvation I trust only in the blood of Jesus alone. I have that assurance because of what Jesus did... His blood is bigger than any so called Witchcraft or sorcery. He paid it all and will forgive me

 

[EnglishChick]

well we have a forgiving God who, if we confess our faults to, will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Hes not a God who will chop your head off for being honest.

Am not against honesty but in a situation like my friends she had to lie to keep herself safe and get the help she needed

what loving God would send someone to hell for that? God is love. He wouldn't so that to my friend

Am saying sometimes with lying the end justifies the means

I don't see how my friends lying to her parents was any different than people lying to SS officers about hiding Jews in their homes during the reign of the 3rd Reich. lying for a good cause is not the same as lying to slander someone or cause mischief. The ten commandments specifically described the sin of false witness.

white lies are wrong in most cases yes but we are all guilty.of that. I thank God for the blood of Jesus or none of us would go to heaven.

 

[EnglishChick]

Let's see if we can break some of these down into categories of deception to extract some principles. Ultimately I guess we lie and deceive because we believe it will benefit us. It will avoid conflict; it will keep people from harming me; it will prejudice people in my favor etc. So then I think the question we have to ask is; is the benefit to be gained by deception worth the harm that it does?

So what is the deception protecting? I think our general social consensus is that deception to protect someone's life is permissible and excuseable. And deception to protect your property from harm is also permissible. People vary on how permissible deception as a social lubricant is, but many a wise man has learned to be a little bit circumspect when his wife asks if something makes her look fat. In the wife hiding receipts example this gets a little more confusing because the deception protects not only the wife's physical safety, but also any bad financial habits she has and the whole extremely unhealthy dynamic of that relationship. So I won't tell her, yeah be perfectly honest with him because that's the right thing to do even if it results in him abusing you, but the deception definitely isn't a good or healthy or really even acceptable thing in this case. It's a huge mess.

The flip side then is what harm does the deception do? An extra dollar on my electricity bill as a kind of burglar insurance and a burglar not getting to burgle stuff from me is a pretty minimal harm. As is just about any impact on someone of the difference makeup will make to my appearance ( I was going to just say appearance, but there's too much that can be said about appearances and the deception of pornography and intentionally inciting to lust to just categorically say appearance causes negligible harm in all cases).

Something should also be said about the frequency of use of deception because deception erodes trust and without trust we end up with the breakdown of just about any unity or co-operation between people. Kind of like the boy who cried wolf if we use deception too often in too many petty matters, then we destroy ourselves (after all if you lied about A when the stakes seemed so low, why should anyone think you'd tell the truth when it mattered?).

Ok that's my first round of thoughts. Good on you for starting this discussion.

THanks. I didn't really consider that not allowing a burglar to break in would cause harm of any kind really. And if it does mean they can't steal, that's good, maybe they will actually get a job so they don't have to? I mean in terms of their welfare and their soul they need to have the opportunity to earn living rather than steal.

Regarding makeup, that's interesting as I hadn't linked it to pornography or lust. Maybe because I only ever hear people talk about using make-up to give themselves more confidence or hide blemishes .

 

[Lanolin]

I was talking bout mrs potiphar not your friend. I dont know your friend.

Children lie because they think they will get in trouble or punished if they dont lie. Good parents will encourage truth telling. If your parents are wicked, and you stick with the truth then its likely you will end up in the fiery furnace, but God will be with you then.

He will vindicate those who put their life at risk for telling the truth.

if parents are abusive you dont need to go to a pyshciatrist,,,you'd just report them to the police or social worker. A psychiatrist isnt going to sort out problems with parents.

 

[Lanolin]

a lot of children do have restraining orders against abusive parents.
They dont need pyschiatric help if they telling the truth.

They just need to be away from their absuive parent(s)

 

[Lanolin]

I mean some do turn to drugs in order to cope, but to be safe they need to actually live somewhere free from harm. For some children school is that place of refuge.

 

[Kojikun]

It's like slavery and racism. Once considered normal but thank God we know better now! I very much believe in progress and science including social science and psychology.are tools that can be used for good or for bad.

I don't agree with progressive.views if they go against the bible but when i searched the scriptures prohibiting medicine of any kind or from women having jobs etc I couldn't find any. So I don't think God has an issue with !y beliefs and if He does He will tell me. It won't affect my standing with Him as His blood has covered all my sins I will ever do or have done it

some peopel.tell me.I'm using witchcraft.and sorcery for using paychiatry and psychotherapy and taking psych meds and some Christian "prophets" have told me personally that the Lord has told them I have lost my salvation because of it and will go to hell if I don't repent. I choose to stick to the word of God. I do believe in the gifts and I have been involved in prophetic ministry myself but o nce.we.are born again we are safe from God's condemnation

I don't believe God likes me v much. Loves me yes but I think He disgusted with me . Yet I know the bible says am going to heaven because I am God's child and have been born again. So even though I sometimes see my own strict abusive fathers face screaming curses at me when I try to pray, and I don't have a high opinion of myself.I believe the bible says that Jesus said "it is finished!" and All those who have trusted only. in the finished work of the cross to save them will be in paradise one day with Him. Not all of us will get rewards though..if we disobey we.are considered the least in the kingdom .

I imagine these "prophets" would not understand the stress that being afraid of your own thoughts and actions can cause. When your mind and thoughts are your worse enemy life can get extremely challenging. Another point of view on the subject. https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-prescription-drugs.html

 

[EnglishChick]

a lot of children do have restraining orders against abusive parents.
They dont need pyschiatric help if they telling the truth.

They just need to be away from their absuive parent(s)

yes but also need psychotherapy for the complex PTS D from the abuse if it has affected them. All so illnesses like borderline personality disorder narcissistic personality disorder and munchausens syndrome are linked to abuse and my friend had some of these diagnoses. I am not saying that's true for all abuse survivors but for many of us

If war veterans are allowed to get treatment for shell shock then surviving abuse is no different

God provides psychotherapy and recovery groups for the above groups . There's nothing unBiblical or sinful about it

this reminds me of those churches that way women shouldn't wear lipstick or cut their hair because it's "worldly". It's simply a cultural or denominational opinion.

the law we need to obey is in the Word we don't need to make rules about extra things

so many prophecies these days are extrajudicial knowledge, clouds without wind. I will stick with God's word and the few prophets I know for sure are truly listening to Jesus

most church leaders are in it for the money. Or they really believe they hearing from God. There is a remnant who truly know Him though

 

[EnglishChick]

I mean some do turn to drugs in order to cope, but to be safe they need to actually live somewhere free from harm. For some children school is that place of refuge.

there are boarding schools yes. Not everyone gets chance to go. It depends on the circumstance

I don't believe God would want us to judge someone who coped with a horrendous situation as a teenager. God is love. Judgement and condemnation aren't for believer

As Don Francisco says (for us Christians ) "only love is spoken here"

 

[EnglishChick]

I imagine these "prophets" would not understand the stress that being afraid of your own thoughts and actions can cause. When your mind and thoughts are your worse enemy life can get extremely challenging. Another point of view on the subject. https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-prescription-drugs.html

yes and they believe God is a harsh taskmaster who condemns when that isn't the truth for those born again