Deception. Where do we draw the line?

[EnglishChick]

I been thinking about this a lot lately and the wearing a wedding ring while single thread was the catalyst, as it were, for me posting this.

as a Christian I know that to tell or make a lie is not God's way and God has been dealing with me lately about a tendency I have to tell white lies so I won't be judged (working on some self esteem and people pleasing issues in my trauma therapy as an abuse survivor) and I been pondering about deception generally.

I Do struggle with a type of OCD known as scrupulosity or religious ocd, dividend to over think things and worry am sinning terribly over certain small seeming issues, so this may be a part of it for me.

would you consider the following things deception/lying?

- Going away on holiday or to hospital or even just going out of an evening. Is it deception to leave a light on and curtains part drawn to create an impression that am home in order to deter burglars?

- Dying your grey hairs, not with an intent to deceive but maybe not liking looking old or having grey hair?

- Wearing make up. I have heard prophets on YouTube say God gave them a vision of people in hellfire because of make up and God told them because make up is faking your look . They Say the same about straightening or curling our hair or wearing high heels because we are making our height, hair texture etc different ? They also say it about dyeing your hair. Well what if you due your hair pink?? No one is going to be deceived that your natural hair colour is bright pink! I don't believe the hell bit because I no longer believe that genuine Christians who are abiding in Christ to there. but are they right about the deception bit? Because I don't want to be a liar



- Hair removal of facial hair, arm or leg hair? Because again giving false look

- When am having a tough time and someone I don't know well or feel able to share with asks me how am doing and I say am fine

also when is lying for the greater good? sometimes it can be like hiding Jews in ww2 but what about this:

a teenage r brought up in strict family has issues with mental health to point of suicide and v unwell but because of parents Christ is faith they forbidden to see a counsellor or talk about their problems they go behind parents to get the help they need?

a wife has a husband who yells at her and punished her with violence fo r making mistakes like spending too much housekeeping money so she hides receipts ?

 

[cinder]

Let's see if we can break some of these down into categories of deception to extract some principles. Ultimately I guess we lie and deceive because we believe it will benefit us. It will avoid conflict; it will keep people from harming me; it will prejudice people in my favor etc. So then I think the question we have to ask is; is the benefit to be gained by deception worth the harm that it does?

So what is the deception protecting? I think our general social consensus is that deception to protect someone's life is permissible and excuseable. And deception to protect your property from harm is also permissible. People vary on how permissible deception as a social lubricant is, but many a wise man has learned to be a little bit circumspect when his wife asks if something makes her look fat. In the wife hiding receipts example this gets a little more confusing because the deception protects not only the wife's physical safety, but also any bad financial habits she has and the whole extremely unhealthy dynamic of that relationship. So I won't tell her, yeah be perfectly honest with him because that's the right thing to do even if it results in him abusing you, but the deception definitely isn't a good or healthy or really even acceptable thing in this case. It's a huge mess.

The flip side then is what harm does the deception do? An extra dollar on my electricity bill as a kind of burglar insurance and a burglar not getting to burgle stuff from me is a pretty minimal harm. As is just about any impact on someone of the difference makeup will make to my appearance ( I was going to just say appearance, but there's too much that can be said about appearances and the deception of pornography and intentionally inciting to lust to just categorically say appearance causes negligible harm in all cases).

Something should also be said about the frequency of use of deception because deception erodes trust and without trust we end up with the breakdown of just about any unity or co-operation between people. Kind of like the boy who cried wolf if we use deception too often in too many petty matters, then we destroy ourselves (after all if you lied about A when the stakes seemed so low, why should anyone think you'd tell the truth when it mattered?).

Ok that's my first round of thoughts. Good on you for starting this discussion.

 

[Runningman]

I been thinking about this a lot lately and the wearing a wedding ring while single thread was the catalyst, as it were, for me posting this.

as a Christian I know that to tell or make a lie is not God's way and God has been dealing with me lately about a tendency I have to tell white lies so I won't be judged (working on some self esteem and people pleasing issues in my trauma therapy as an abuse survivor) and I been pondering about deception generally.

I Do struggle with a type of OCD known as scrupulosity or religious ocd, dividend to over think things and worry am sinning terribly over certain small seeming issues, so this may be a part of it for me.

would you consider the following things deception/lying?

- Going away on holiday or to hospital or even just going out of an evening. Is it deception to leave a light on and curtains part drawn to create an impression that am home in order to deter burglars?

- Dying your grey hairs, not with an intent to deceive but maybe not liking looking old or having grey hair?

- Wearing make up. I have heard prophets on YouTube say God gave them a vision of people in hellfire because of make up and God told them because make up is faking your look . They Say the same about straightening or curling our hair or wearing high heels because we are making our height, hair texture etc different ? They also say it about dyeing your hair. Well what if you due your hair pink?? No one is going to be deceived that your natural hair colour is bright pink! I don't believe the hell bit because I no longer believe that genuine Christians who are abiding in Christ to there. but are they right about the deception bit? Because I don't want to be a liar



- Hair removal of facial hair, arm or leg hair? Because again giving false look

- When am having a tough time and someone I don't know well or feel able to share with asks me how am doing and I say am fine

also when is lying for the greater good? sometimes it can be like hiding Jews in ww2 but what about this:

a teenage r brought up in strict family has issues with mental health to point of suicide and v unwell but because of parents Christ is faith they forbidden to see a counsellor or talk about their problems they go behind parents to get the help they need?

a wife has a husband who yells at her and punished her with violence fo r making mistakes like spending too much housekeeping money so she hides receipts ?

I don't know that not wearing a wedding ring when married or wearing a wedding ring while single is lying.

The Bible doesn't give any command to wear a wedding ring as a sign to others that you're unavailable. Wedding rings are just a societal construct that simplifies the decision making process of determining who is available and who isn't. You don't necessarily have to follow social constructs.

It is entirely your choice even if people fail to grasp this concept. At least that's how I see it. That being said, yes of course be sure to tell the truth and explain your position if asked. Each person can decide if they agree or disagree with you, but a ring or a lack thereof doesn't mean you're lying. Just my opinion.

 

[Kojikun]

I been thinking about this a lot lately and the wearing a wedding ring while single thread was the catalyst, as it were, for me posting this.

as a Christian I know that to tell or make a lie is not God's way and God has been dealing with me lately about a tendency I have to tell white lies so I won't be judged (working on some self esteem and people pleasing issues in my trauma therapy as an abuse survivor) and I been pondering about deception generally.

I Do struggle with a type of OCD known as scrupulosity or religious ocd, dividend to over think things and worry am sinning terribly over certain small seeming issues, so this may be a part of it for me.

would you consider the following things deception/lying?

- Going away on holiday or to hospital or even just going out of an evening. Is it deception to leave a light on and curtains part drawn to create an impression that am home in order to deter burglars?

- Dying your grey hairs, not with an intent to deceive but maybe not liking looking old or having grey hair?

- Wearing make up. I have heard prophets on YouTube say God gave them a vision of people in hellfire because of make up and God told them because make up is faking your look . They Say the same about straightening or curling our hair or wearing high heels because we are making our height, hair texture etc different ? They also say it about dyeing your hair. Well what if you due your hair pink?? No one is going to be deceived that your natural hair colour is bright pink! I don't believe the hell bit because I no longer believe that genuine Christians who are abiding in Christ to there. but are they right about the deception bit? Because I don't want to be a liar



- Hair removal of facial hair, arm or leg hair? Because again giving false look

- When am having a tough time and someone I don't know well or feel able to share with asks me how am doing and I say am fine

also when is lying for the greater good? sometimes it can be like hiding Jews in ww2 but what about this:

a teenage r brought up in strict family has issues with mental health to point of suicide and v unwell but because of parents Christ is faith they forbidden to see a counsellor or talk about their problems they go behind parents to get the help they need?

a wife has a husband who yells at her and punished her with violence fo r making mistakes like spending too much housekeeping money so she hides receipts ?

Hello there I struggle with Scruples as well and I also find it best to not listen to every (self proclaimed) prophet that has a platform or YouTube channel. That being said I'm not saying there all wrong but examine scripture to see if it lines up. I found something on GotQuestions about dying your hair. It might make you feel a bit better https://www.gotquestions.org/dyeing-hair.html

 

[Lanolin]

thought a wedding ring was for if your spouse died you could sell it and pay for their funeral (and other expenses)

if you dye your hair its kinda obvious it just gives it a different colour. You arent fooling anyone really.

the teenager who is suicidal probably needs to talk to someone, anyone, doesnt have to be a counsellor. Could be just a friend. God always listening but if they cant connect with Him then a friend is as good as any (trained) counsellor.

if a wife is married to a husband who loses his temper for spending too much she has to figure out how to budget and he has to learn to forgive her. If they are in a financial hole they need to sort it out with the bank perhaps they need to refinance their mortgage. Theres no need to hide receipts in a marriage.
Or to be violent for that matter.

 

[EnglishChick]

thought a wedding ring was for if your spouse died you could sell it and pay for their funeral (and other expenses)

if you dye your hair its kinda obvious it just gives it a different colour. You arent fooling anyone really.

the teenager who is suicidal probably needs to talk to someone, anyone, doesnt have to be a counsellor. Could be just a friend. God always listening but if they cant connect with Him then a friend is as good as any (trained) counsellor.

if a wife is married to a husband who loses his temper for spending too much she has to figure out how to budget and he has to learn to forgive her. If they are in a financial hole they need to sort it out with the bank perhaps they need to refinance their mortgage. Theres no need to hide receipts in a marriage.
Or to be violent for that matter.

See in those example I have I know both families

The husband with the temper was abusing the children as well as the wife with his anger and generally v cruel. So I think the wife should have left with the kids so didn't have to lie

The teenager needed professional help as they were showing signs of mental illness (extreme mood swings and self harm) and came from a background of verbal and physical abuse from a Christian parent . Because the parents were Christians they forbade the practice of psychiatry . I think the teenager was right in this case to go behind their backs and get the help they needed

 

[cinder]

Which brings an interesting side question to add to the discussion: Does the honesty you owe people vary depending on the trust you've built (or destroyed or lost) with them?

 

[Lanolin]

See in those example I have I know both families

The husband with the temper was abusing the children as well as the wife with his anger and generally v cruel. So I think the wife should have left with the kids so didn't have to lie

The teenager needed professional help as they were showing signs of mental illness (extreme mood swings and self harm) and came from a background of verbal and physical abuse from a Christian parent . Because the parents were Christians they forbade the practice of psychiatry . I think the teenager was right in this case to go behind their backs and get the help they needed

they were christian in what way?

when you say people are christian, what do tyou actually mean?
drugs dont help a lot of people they are a quick fix. Pyschiatrists are actually really expensive though they charge hundreds of dollars an hour, I wouldnt think ' because the parents are christians they forbade pyschiatry'. It would probably be cos they couldnt afford it.

 

[EnglishChick]

Which brings an interesting side question to add to the discussion: Does the honesty you owe people vary depending on the trust you've built (or destroyed or lost) with them?

ideally we would always be honest with others even if they are not good to us but there is a difference between someone being a bit of a jerk and a pattern of severe abuse

 

[EnglishChick]

they were christian in what way?

when you say people are christian, what do tyou actually mean?
drugs dont help a lot of people they are a quick fix. Pyschiatrists are actually really expensive though they charge hundreds of dollars an hour, I wouldnt think ' because the parents are christians they forbade pyschiatry'. It would probably be cos they couldnt afford it.

No this is in the UK, and it was psychotherapy not just drugs. For someone whose life in danger because of self injury and suicidal.ideation and attempts. I knew the family well and they were well off middle class.family. This girl told me they forbade it because psychotherapy is anti biblical and also they kept screaming at her that she was taking her illness for attention. That's abuse .

 

[Lanolin]

also the wife probably couldnt afford to leave the husband who was cruel to her, if she was lying about household expenses maybe she didnt have her own income.
Its easy for someone else to say leave, not easy to actually do it.

 

[Lanolin]

No this is in the UK, and it was psychotherapy not just drugs. For someone whose life in danger because of self injury and suicidal.ideation and attempts. I knew the family well and they were well off middle class.family. This girl told me they forbade it because psychotherapy is anti biblical and also they kept screaming at her that she was taking her illness for attention. That's abuse .

talking to someone is anti biblical? hmm ok
sounds like she was in a cult.

 

[EnglishChick]

they were christian in what way?

when you say people are christian, what do tyou actually mean?
drugs dont help a lot of people they are a quick fix. Pyschiatrists are actually really expensive though they charge hundreds of dollars an hour, I wouldnt think ' because the parents are christians they forbade pyschiatry'. It would probably be cos they couldnt afford it.

They were hyper evangelical fundamentalist types. They had rules such as not allowing their children to do occult things like psychiatric counselling .
They were born again spirit filled Christians but v paranoid. This girl had a breakdown and the father blamed her illness for ruining his reputation as a deliverance minister. She had a mild learning issue at school (Like dyslexia but not) and her father would punish her for it by threatening to beat her if she made mistakes in her schoolwork. he said it was bad behaviour and refused the schools offer to get her help. She had panic attacks over this which I witnessed and said she was scared of him. He was one of those Tiger Parent types.

They did inner healing ministry and deliverance with survivors of severe abuse and when this girl tried to tell them she had been touched inappropriately by someone the dad yelled at her and mocked her telling her to stop causing trouble.

I know this girl well because i was closely involved in her life. Last I heard she had some issues with personality disorders and was being treated in a day hospital.

Either she telling the truth, which I think so because her distress was real or she was attention seeking which can be a mental illness. Might have been munhcausens. I have read about munchausems and it usually caused by some deep trauma early on. So either way her parents handled it badly

I'm not saying her parents are bad people, they did spend a lot of money on her clothes and schooling and she had the best of everything but their strict parenting didn't help their kids.

 

[Lanolin]

i recall going to a friends family funeral, her nephew had committed suicide, the family werent christians but the boy did go to a catholic school, but it was the thing they never talked about their feelings because a lot of families just dont. at the funeral, which was actually held in a church the minister did say if you have a problem you talk to someone, dont bottle it up. a lot of people had no idea that this boy (he was 26) was suffering depression. They just thought his behaviour was normal.

many families have this code of silence around them, they could never admit to things being wrong because of pride. anyway...you have to be honest about things.

 

[EnglishChick]

also the wife probably couldnt afford to leave the husband who was cruel to her, if she was lying about household expenses maybe she didnt have her own income.
Its easy for someone else to say leave, not easy to actually do it.

She came from a rich family they both had plenty but she was afraid of him. He would punish her and the kids physical
y and verbally...I witnessed it more than once. My own home was abusive too so I understand what they went through. And I came from a strict culture too...one where the female children are considered property of the father until marriage even after 18. so I do understand how it is different for some of us.

It is called domestic abuse, I read about it. I read a lot of secular literature as I believe the church hasn't caught up yet with what women need.

 

[Lynx]

Which brings an interesting side question to add to the discussion: Does the honesty you owe people vary depending on the trust you've built (or destroyed or lost) with them?

Eh... that would be getting cause and effect mixed up.

Now the EFFORT i put into being honest, that would vary a lot. If I found uncle Fred's wallet I'd drive two towns over to deliver it to him personally. If I found a wallet owned by somebody I know is a class F jerk, I would turn it in to the store where I found it. Maybe I'd call him and tell him where it is. Maybe not.

 

[Lanolin]

They were hyper evangelical fundamentalist types. They had rules such as not allowing their children to do occult things like psychiatric counselling .
They were born again spirit filled Christians but v paranoid. This girl had a breakdown and the father blamed her illness for ruining his reputation as a deliverance minister. She had a mild learning issue at school (Like dyslexia but not) and her father would punish her for it by threatening to beat her if she made mistakes in her schoolwork. he said it was bad behaviour and refused the schools offer to get her help. She had panic attacks over this which I witnessed and said she was scared of him. He was one of those Tiger Parent types.

They did inner healing ministry and deliverance with survivors of severe abuse and when this girl tried to tell them she had been touched inappropriately by someone the dad yelled at her and mocked her telling her to stop causing trouble.

I know this girl well because i was closely involved in her life. Last I heard she had some issues with personality disorders and was being treated in a day hospital.

Either she telling the truth, which I think so because her distress was real or she was attention seeking which can be a mental illness. Might have been munhcausens. I have read about munchausems and it usually caused by some deep trauma early on. So either way her parents handled it badly

I'm not saying her parents are bad people, they did spend a lot of money on her clothes and schooling and she had the best of everything but their strict parenting didn't help their kids.

eek
what about her grandparents. I often think about children who have problems with parents and wonder what the grandparents do. (if anything)

 

[EnglishChick]

i recall going to a friends family funeral, her nephew had committed suicide, the family werent christians but the boy did go to a catholic school, but it was the thing they never talked about their feelings because a lot of families just dont. at the funeral, which was actually held in a church the minister did say if you have a problem you talk to someone, dont bottle it up. a lot of people had no idea that this boy (he was 26) was suffering depression. They just thought his behaviour was normal.

many families have this code of silence around them, they could never admit to things being wrong because of pride. anyway...you have to be honest about things.

But was this guy threatened with a knife and screamed at when they told their parents they were strug gling?

you sound as if you are minimising what would nowadays be considered abuse

Husbands used to hit their wives and kids. doesn't mean God approved just because it was how it was done in the past

I 'm a liberal Christian these days . I have deconstructed from all the rules about women and what they should do. I a! Happy to have had a degree and Be an independent woman! There is nothing wrong with wanting to be a stay at home housewife and mum at all. I think God blesses it as a high vocation.

But it's ok to not be one. it's ok to move out as an adult and live your own life and not obey your parents. The bible says honour your.parents and that doesn't mean automatic obedience as.an adult. It's ok to not want children and to be into women's rights and support women's charities

I don't believe in abortion in most cases . That's where I draw the line.

 

[EnglishChick]

Eh... that would be getting cause and effect mixed up.

Now the EFFORT i put into being honest, that would vary a lot. If I found uncle Fred's wallet I'd drive two towns over to deliver it to him personally. If I found a wallet owned by somebody I know is a class F jerk, I would turn it in to the store where I found it. Maybe I'd call him and tell him where it is. Maybe not.

If it was my uncle's wallet is just call him and let him know to come and find it! wouldn't be bothered driving two towns as he could come get it!.

 

[EnglishChick]

eek
what about her grandparents. I often think about children who have problems with parents and wonder what the grandparents do. (if anything)

We got back in touch as an adult and she said she would have been too scared to tell the grandparents and they probably would have thought it was normal.as their generation believed in punishing kids physically