Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

presidente · Apr 30, 2021

It is a body, but the body is spiritual.

Paul says that there is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus. Men are human. Therefore Jesus is Human. If we are made like Him the resurrection, we will also be human.

1 Corinthians 15:42-47KJV
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.[/quote]

A spiritual body is a human body.

Adam means man. All men are human.

Notice the word 'man' there again.

presidente · Apr 30, 2021

Truth7t7 said:

I did a quick search on this and came up with this footnote in this document https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/1969-1_030.pdf:

If this is the case, the Ireneaus held to the early church view of a literal millennium, which you treat as anti-Biblical doctrine.

Justin Martyr lived in the early second century, and he also held to this early Christian view as seen here: https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxxx.html

Truth7t7 · Apr 30, 2021

presidente said:

A spiritual body is a human body.

Adam means man. All men are human.

Notice the word 'man' there again.[/QUOTE]
Your claim Jesus Christ is presently a human man is false

He maintains a glorified spiritual body, that has no boundaries in this earthly world, and appeared in a room with doors being shut, vanished away in a moment

A glorified spiritual body of flesh and bone, the first fruit of the resurrection

We will disagree, last response

John 20:19KJV
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Luke 24:30-31KJV
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Truth7t7 · Apr 30, 2021

presidente said:

Iranaeus saw the (Final Judgement) Lake Of Fire and the Eternal Kingdom (For The Righteous)

No False Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, With Mortal Humans Prior To The Final Judgement A (False Teaching)

Ireaneus Against Heresies 30.4

But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Matthew 8:11

Truth7t7 · Apr 30, 2021

presidente said:

Justin Martyr saw the Second Coming (Final Judgement)

Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho Chapter 35

Wherefore we pray for you and for all other men who hate us; in order that you, having repented along with us, may not blaspheme Him who, by His works, by the mighty deeds even now wrought through His name, by the words He taught, by the prophecies announced concerning Him, is the blameless, and in all things irreproachable, Christ Jesus; but, believing on Him, may be saved in His second glorious advent, and may not be condemned to fire by Him."

Chapter 49

Then I inquired of him, "Does not Scripture, in the book of Zechariah, say that Elijah shall come before the great and terrible day of the Lord?"
And he answered, "Certainly."
"If therefore Scripture compels you to admit that two advents of Christ were predicted to take place,--one in which He would appear suffering, and dishonoured, and without comeliness; but the other in which He would come glorious. and Judge of all, as has been made manifest in many of the forecited passages,--shall we not suppose that the word of God has proclaimed that Elijah shall be the precursor of the great and terrible day, that is, of His second advent?"

Chapter 59 Justin Martyr saw the Resurrection and Eternal Glorified Body at the Second Coming

Yet He wrought such works, and persuaded those who were[destined to] believe on Him; for even if any one be labouring under a defect of body, yet be an observer of the doctrines delivered by Him, He shall raise him up at His second advent perfectly sound, after He has made him immortal, and incorruptible, and free from grief.

Truth7t7 · Apr 30, 2021

presidente said:

Justin Martyr saw the 1,000 years expressed as being fulfilled in the Eternal kingdom in the New Heaven And Earth, After The Final Judgement

CHAPTER LXXXI -- HE ENDEAVOURS TO PROVE THIS OPINION FROM ISAIAH AND THE APOCALYPSE.

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying.

101G · Apr 30, 2021

Addressing the OP, haven't read all the post, Not saying that you're RIGHT, or WRONG, and maybe someone has already posted this, but do not all are here on planet earth when the Lord Jesus RETRURNS? the reason why I say this is this parable,

Matthew 13:24 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:"
Matthew 13:25 "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way."
Matthew 13:26 "But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also."
Matthew 13:27 "So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?"
Matthew 13:28 "He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?"
Matthew 13:29 "But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them."
Matthew 13:30 "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

so my question is, why do the Lord Jesus, (the One who is returning), make a statement in a parable, which signify a real event, say that the GOOD and the BAD will be here when he returns..

and on top of that, the Bad/the Tars will be harvested FIRST at his RETURN.

PICJAG,
101G.

Truth7t7 · Apr 30, 2021

101G said:

Addressing the OP, haven't read all the post, Not saying that you're RIGHT, or WRONG, and maybe someone has already posted this, but do not all are here on planet earth when the Lord Jesus RETRURNS? the reason why I say this is this parable,

Matthew 13:24 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:"
Matthew 13:25 "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way."
Matthew 13:26 "But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also."
Matthew 13:27 "So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?"
Matthew 13:28 "He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?"
Matthew 13:29 "But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them."
Matthew 13:30 "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

so my question is, why do the Lord Jesus, (the One who is returning), make a statement in a parable, which signify a real event, say that the GOOD and the BAD will be here when he returns..

and on top of that, the Bad/the Tars will be harvested FIRST at his RETURN.

PICJAG,
101G.

Yes a good observation of fact, the wheat (Church) and (Tares) wicked will both be present upon earth at the Second Coming, showing a pre-trib rapture is a farce

Yes the tares will be gathered and bound on earth to be burned, as the wheat is removed

presidente · Apr 30, 2021

Truth7t7 said:

Do you have a quote that actually proves your point? I referred to a secondary source that says that Ireneaus believed in a 1000 year period. I do not have the primary source. You quoted something that does not prove your point.

presidente · Apr 30, 2021

Truth7t7 said:

Justin Martyr saw the 1,000 years expressed as being fulfilled in the Eternal kingdom in the New Heaven And Earth, After The Final Judgement

CHAPTER LXXXI -- HE ENDEAVOURS TO PROVE THIS OPINION FROM ISAIAH AND THE APOCALYPSE.

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying.

That is not convincing in arguing that he did not believe in a literal 1000 years.

presidente · Apr 30, 2021

Truth7t7 said:

Your obtuseness is verging into the heretical with such statements. You just have a weird definition of human. Men are human. Men in glorified resurrected bodies will be human also. Your argument is nonsense.

Yes, of the MAN Christ Jesus. The historical orthodox description is 'fully God and fully Man.' Which means he is Man, a human being.

[/quote]

You seem to excel in posting scriptures and other quotes that do not prove your point.

Truth7t7 · Apr 30, 2021

presidente said:

The quote clearly shows the (Final Judgement, Lake Of Fire) and eternal kingdom following

Truth7t7 · Apr 30, 2021

presidente said:

Justin Martyr saw the 1,000 years represented in the New Heaven and Earth, of course your not satisfied, becuse you have a pre-determined bias to see a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, that will never take place

Justin Martyr saw the 1,000 years expressed as being fulfilled in the Eternal kingdom in the New Heaven And Earth, After The Final Judgement

CHAPTER LXXXI -- HE ENDEAVOURS TO PROVE THIS OPINION FROM ISAIAH AND THE APOCALYPSE.

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying.

Truth7t7 · May 1, 2021

presidente said:

You seem to excel in posting scriptures and other quotes that do not prove your point.[/QUOTE]
We will disagree, after his resurrection Jesus Christ received a glorified body, that could enter rooms with closed doors, vanish out of sight

No his body wasnt the same as pre-resurrection, he was the first fruit of this resurrection

Believers will also receive this body, at their future resurrection on the last day

Phoneman-777 · May 1, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I'll be back either later tonight, or tomorrow... I've got some things I need to tend to atm...
... for now, I'm just going to leave here something I had planned to post many pages back, when it was being discussed, about Irenaeus... I've noticed something for years about how post-tribbers (etc) are reading this quote, but which (b/c of what else he says elsewhere) I do not believe they are interpreting correctly what he is saying, here:

[quoting Irenaeus]

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

--Irenaeus

--post-tribbers (etc) see him EQUATING the green and the blue [he isn't

]

--pre-tribbers (not that he was necessarily "pre-trib / pre-70th-Wk") are pointing out that he is MAKING A DISTINCTION (JUST AS WE "pre-tribbers" are!) BETWEEN "the Church [which is His body]" (all those saved "in this present age") and "the righteous" (who are the ones coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"--that is, IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib years--i.e. "the righteous" in Matt13:43 / Matt25:[31-34]46)

It's like a mental block... when they read the words "the righteous" they automatically think "the Church [which is His body]" and declare, "SEE! Irenaeus said WE WILL BE HERE THEN"... No, he isn't saying that.

At least not here in THIS quote (and several others I've read, of his writings... where he seems to believe there are three levels of "destination" for believers [as in, levels of reward, type of thing]: Heaven, paradise [I think he said], and earth...

)

I've seen people do this, for years, when reading this quote. = )

[same thing took place in one of my posts while back, in this very thread... I was talking about "the righteous"/the "BLESSED"/those who come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture," IN the TRIB years, but this was seemingly not recognized that I was saying this, by the poster/commenter... as far as I could tell, anyway)]

I have never seen someone so backwards in their eschatology, friend. Irenaeus, like all other church fathers, fully expected the Antichrist to arise BEFORE the coming of Jesus, and directly following the collapse of the Roman Empire, which the Papacy fulfilled when it arose among the ashes of it, and went on to proclaim itself to "take the place of Christ" on Earth - the very definition of the Greek "Anti-Christos".

https://nicklasarthur.wordpress.com...-fathers-were-historicist-h-grattan-guinness/

lamad · May 1, 2021

Phoneman-777 said:

It is indeed strange: for the early church fathers had the very same Epistles of Paul that we have, and they had the book of Revelation. One would think that then and now would make no difference. However, we still can't agree NOW, there being at least four camps of "tribbers."

One thing is certain: all four cannot be right.

Did you notice that the great crowd, too large to number in seen in Rev. 7, but Jesus does not return until chapter 19? Some explain this that Rev. is not written in any kind of chronology. However, no one has ever proved John's chronology as written as faulty.

As for 2 Thes. 2 Did you notice that in 3b the man of sin IS revealed?

Yet in veres 6-8 we know he cannot be revealed until the power restraining or holding back that revealing is taken out of the way.

Please tell us then, what in verse 3a is "taken out of the way" so that the man of sin got revealed?

presidente · May 1, 2021

cv5 said:

No. No one has shown me a Biblical on ramp to the highway of pretrib circular reasoning.

Pretribbers say the passage should be interpreted in a certain way. Why? Because they assume pretrib and read it into the passage.

But there is no scripture to justify pretrib in the first place. If Revelation or Matthew 24 or equivalent passages set the rapture before the tribulation, I could understand being a bit flexible with other passages.

But there is no such 'onramp' to justify reading pretrib onto tge passage.

So why would I accept the idea about a passage, like @TheDivineWatermark 's on II Thessalonians 2, regarding Christ being revealed from heaven as a 7 year period. Why reinterpret the coming, parousia of Christ as a seven year event? That is so lose it remind of preterists saying the destruction of Jerusalem around 70 AD is the coming of Christ.

There are plenty of passages that pretribbers can argue a 'fit' for, but where are the scriptures that teach it in the first place? Reading pretrib into passages and them using those passages to argue for pretrib is circular reasoning. There is no 'on ramp scripture to justify interpreting those scriptures as pretrib. No onramp to the circular highway of pretrib reasoning.

Then the coming of Christ in Matthew 24 and the gathering together of the elect ___after___ the tribulation has to mean something different from the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him in II Thessalonians 2 and they that are Christ's being made alive at his coming in I Corinthians 15. Or else one takes a preterist-esqu approach and defines the coming of tge Lord in a less literal, theologically convenient way.

cv5 · May 1, 2021

presidente said:

No. No one has shown me a Biblical on ramp to the highway of pretrib circular reasoning.

Pretribbers say the passage should be interpreted in a certain way. Why? Because they assume pretrib and read it into the passage.

But there is no scripture to justify pretrib in the first place. If Revelation or Matthew 24 or equivalent passages set the rapture before the tribulation, I could understand being a bit flexible with other passages.

But there is no such 'onramp' to justify reading pretrib onto tge passage.

So why would I accept the idea about a passage, like @TheDivineWatermark 's on II Thessalonians 2, regarding Christ being revealed from heaven as a 7 year period. Why reinterpret the coming, parousia of Christ as a seven year event? That is so lose it remind of preterists saying the destruction of Jerusalem around 70 AD is the coming of Christ.

There are plenty of passages that pretribbers can argue a 'fit' for, but where are the scriptures that teach it in the first place? Reading pretrib into passages and them using those passages to argue for pretrib is circular reasoning. There is no 'on ramp scripture to justify interpreting those scriptures as pretrib. No onramp to the circular highway of pretrib reasoning.

Then the coming of Christ in Matthew 24 and the gathering together of the elect ___after___ the tribulation has to mean something different from the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him in II Thessalonians 2 and they that are Christ's being made alive at his coming in I Corinthians 15. Or else one takes a preterist-esqu approach and defines the coming of tge Lord in a less literal, theologically convenient way.

You literally have no idea of what you're talking about. The Church is nowhere mentioned anywhere in Matthew 24. And a lot of other places that you think it does. Scrap everything you think you know and start over.

presidente · May 1, 2021

lamad said:

I wonder how this is supposed to be an argument for pretrib. If he has no answer to the question would that argue for pretrib.

Just because pretribbers have some concept they can plug in there--the church being removed or the Holy Spirit withdrawing, is not evidence for pretrib. It is just evidence that pretribbers again read pretrib interpretations for passages without having any evidence for the theory. It is not like there us any thing in this or other passages that indicates the restrained here us tge church or whatever else pretribbers want to plug in here.
The whole argument for pretrib is that it can fit-- spin out interpretations for certain passages that fit pretrib. It relies on interpretations of allegorical and apocalyptic passages.

But then the coming of Christ and the gathering of the elect after tge tribulation in Matthew 24 are not the same as the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him in II Thessalonians 2 or they that are Christ's being made alive at His coming in I Corinthians 15.

Absolutely · May 1, 2021

presidente said:

No. No one has shown me a Biblical on ramp to the highway of pretrib circular reasoning.

Pretribbers say the passage should be interpreted in a certain way. Why? Because they assume pretrib and read it into the passage.

But there is no scripture to justify pretrib in the first place. If Revelation or Matthew 24 or equivalent passages set the rapture before the tribulation, I could understand being a bit flexible with other passages.

But there is no such 'onramp' to justify reading pretrib onto tge passage.

So why would I accept the idea about a passage, like @TheDivineWatermark 's on II Thessalonians 2, regarding Christ being revealed from heaven as a 7 year period. Why reinterpret the coming, parousia of Christ as a seven year event? That is so lose it remind of preterists saying the destruction of Jerusalem around 70 AD is the coming of Christ.

There are plenty of passages that pretribbers can argue a 'fit' for, but where are the scriptures that teach it in the first place? Reading pretrib into passages and them using those passages to argue for pretrib is circular reasoning. There is no 'on ramp scripture to justify interpreting those scriptures as pretrib. No onramp to the circular highway of pretrib reasoning.

Then the coming of Christ in Matthew 24 and the gathering together of the elect ___after___ the tribulation has to mean something different from the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him in II Thessalonians 2 and they that are Christ's being made alive at his coming in I Corinthians 15. Or else one takes a preterist-esqu approach and defines the coming of tge Lord in a less literal, theologically convenient way.

Is there any way you could just humor us and actually address the rapture verses?

No generalized dodge.
Actually post one
Show us our error, and WHY.

Show is how they fit your doctrine and how that is all that it can be interpreted as.

I will wait

Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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