Repentance is the Gift Of God !
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My bad . I should know better than to keep labouring on the same ground with a Calvinist. It's the same response you get with a Jehovah's_Witnesses . You spend hours refuting all the proof texts only to find they come back round to that one they began with .
I'm not saying that to be mean ,Calvinsm is essentially the same as a cult in a way . Most members hopefully are saved ,but what a waste .You explain your system fairly well . You won't see that your an avatar for the system until you step out the bubble .
You just refuse the Truth. Repentance is given to Israel from the Saviour. Israel is an Elect people, not everybody.My bad . I should know better than to keep labouring on the same ground with a Calvinist. It's the same response you get with a Jehovah's_Witnesses . You spend hours refuting all the proof texts only to find they come back round to that one they began with .
Didn't you just disprove yourself with that verse? It says 'them AND the Israel of God' - showing a distinction where you claim there is none.
You not making sense. Right the Israel of God, thats the Church comprised of jews and gentiles.
Acts 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest ...
Were the council and the high priest gentiles? No, they were not. They were Jews. "Israel" as used in Acts 5:31 refers to those present at the time Peter spoke ... the high priest and the council ... i.e. children of Israel ... Jewish people.
Quit changing Scripture in order to promote a dogma never intended by God.
I replied to the post submitted by awelight. You can provide your response to Post #489 if you'd like.
Further discussions on the correct knowledge of Soteriology with you would be pointless. You are at worst an Arminian and at best a free willist. I am a firm free grace man. I will put the will of God ahead of man every time. Salvation is from the Father, applied to man by the Holy Spirit, in accordance to His Purpose, for His Son whom He loves and the Elect reap the benefits because God chose to save some.
As to your statement here in response to what I had said:
awelight said:
Paul wanted to make sure his point was clearly understood and said this:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This verse needs no clarification nor personal interpretation. It speaks loudly and clearly to the Truth. But I suspect you already know this and intentionally left it out because it does not suit your Theology. There is no doubt that Paul knew of these verses in Malachi but there is also no doubt that he further explained these two verses to the Roman believers.
You replied:
Of course Paul knew the verses in Malachi. This is implied when he wrote "as it is written". Paul knew exactly where it was written. However, Paul did not say that God said "Before they were born, Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated". That is an assumption some have made in order to "suit [their] Theology".
I really don't know what to say here. Your statement, that I emboldened in red, which shows that you do not believe the Scriptures as given in Rom. 9:11. The Apostle Paul was under Divine Inspiration when he wrote the letter to the Romans. As such, everything he wrote is the Word of God. It is God himself that is clarifying the point as we should understand it. There is no "assumption" here. Whether you agree with it or not makes no difference, God's Truth stands written. Do you deny "Inspiration" of the Scriptures? Are do you simply reject the whole counsel of God?
That makes it worth while. We know that God will use the testimony to bring joy to those who love the Truth and as judgement against those who deny the Truth. As for me, I can only hope and pray that I have handled His Word correctly.
See, the natural man is bound to the Law and is required to do the whole law without fault as was Adam, the natural head of man. Now naturally man is bound to the Law as long as he lives naturally, except secretly, unknown to him, he became dead to the Law by the Body of Christ Rom 7:4, which if is the case, repentance will be given them via the newbirth.63
See, if Christ didn't die for one, then they are bound to the Law, to do it perfectly or suffer condemnation of death. Heres how it works in this simile Rom 7:7
7 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
The only way the sinner isn't still married to and bound to the Law, is if Christ died for them, if He didn't, no repentance can be granted, its their natural duty to obey God's law perfectly, or else eternal damnation!
7 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
The only way the sinner isn't still married to and bound to the Law, is if Christ died for them, if He didn't, no repentance can be granted, its their natural duty to obey God's law perfectly, or else eternal damnation!
What I do not believe is your dogma. God never said before Jacob and Esau were born that he loved Jacob and hated Esau.
Here is what God said before the children were born:
Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Here is what God said long after Esau had passed:
Malachi 1:2,3 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
God never said he hated Esau before Esau was born ... God said those words long after Esau had passed.
The same holds true for you. Whether you agree or not, God never said he hated Esau before Esau was born. Scripture bears out this truth.awelight said:
Do you?awelight said:
Here is what God said before the children were born:
Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Here is what God said long after Esau had passed:
Malachi 1:2,3 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
God never said he hated Esau before Esau was born ... God said those words long after Esau had passed.
Do you?awelight said:
Here is what God said before the children were born:
Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Here is what God said long after Esau had passed:
Malachi 1:2,3 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
God never said he hated Esau before Esau was born ... God said those words long after Esau had passed.
The Commandment of God to repent is effectual !
Paul's sermon here in Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now [God] commandeth all men every where to repent:
This is the Sovereign God of the Universe, this is His Word of Command, for instance Ps 33:8-9
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
So Gods commanding the all men to repent ensures with His own power that its done by the all men He specifically commands to repent ! 66
Paul's sermon here in Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now [God] commandeth all men every where to repent:
This is the Sovereign God of the Universe, this is His Word of Command, for instance Ps 33:8-9
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
So Gods commanding the all men to repent ensures with His own power that its done by the all men He specifically commands to repent ! 66
You continue to stand on your beliefs which are not Scripture. It is not my dogma but the simple truth of the Scriptures. You simply refuse the plain truth of what the Apostle Paul wrote. Using the OT in an erroneous way does not change the plain simple fact of what was written or can you not understand the simple meaning of these words.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
It is right here, in red, neither child has yet been born nor have they had any opportunity to do good or evil. The first part, "being not yet born"... sets the time of the election of Jacob and the rejection of Esau. The purpose of this, is to give the election of God firm standing and to prove it was not the works of the Law or any personal choice.
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
"It was said unto her"... before the two were born are came forth from the womb (Gen. 25:23). Therefore, this eliminates works and choices as a reason.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
This statement, gives the reader the reason for the above two verses. Jacob was elected by God because He loved Jacob, even before Jacob was born. He rejected Esau and told Rebekah, "The elder shall serve the younger." This was prophetical when the Lord talked to her. Both of the declarations, "have I loved" and "have I hated", are both Aorist Active Indicative verbs. Therefore looking to the PAST. Each verb is in the First Person Singular. The voice or action was Active. Thus Jacob was the active recipient of God's love and Esau was the active recipient of God's hate. This "PAST" time action does not go back to the OT writings, that would be out of the immediate context. It goes to the statement made in verse 11. Even in Mal. 1:2&3, the statements of the Lord are past tense. The question is...How far in the past do these words belong? They cannot be the reaction of the Lord over Esau's choices and/or actions because this would NEVER harmonize with what Paul wrote in Rom. 9:11&12. If the Lord hated Esau's choice, to give up his birthright and this was the cause of the Lord hating Esau, then Paul was seriously mistaken when he wrote v.11. Since you believe that God rejected Esau over his choice, not because of God's purpose in election, this would be salvation by works, choosing good over evil and therefore, having done right in the sight of God your salvation was merited. This destroys UNMERITED GRACE. This is the principle purpose behind Paul's arguments in Roman's. Not of works but of grace.
Now how far in the past do we go for the answer of God's love to the elect and therefore, Jacob:
Eph 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.
And again:
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the eternal covenant,
This is my last reply to you on this subject.
The Commandment of God to repent is effectual !2
The word of Gods commandment produces the desired result. When Christ commanded Lazarus Jn 11:43
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. Lets remember Lazarus was dead at this time:
Jn 11:14
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Now the words come forth are in the greek an imperative
deuro:
(a) exclamatory: come, (b) temporal: now, the present.
in urging and calling, "Here! Come!"
The greek imperative means:
The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding.
In Acts 17:30 God is commanding all men everywhere to repent, and they shall do it, as many as God has Granted repentance Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. 67
The word of Gods commandment produces the desired result. When Christ commanded Lazarus Jn 11:43
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. Lets remember Lazarus was dead at this time:
Jn 11:14
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Now the words come forth are in the greek an imperative
deuro:
(a) exclamatory: come, (b) temporal: now, the present.
in urging and calling, "Here! Come!"
The greek imperative means:
The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding.
In Acts 17:30 God is commanding all men everywhere to repent, and they shall do it, as many as God has Granted repentance Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. 67
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Did you know that repentance was primarily from false religion? On the day of Pentecost Peters audience was pretty much religious people from among the jews, I believe they were moral and respectable jewish citizens, not a bunch of drunkards and drug addicts, fornicators and thieves. No they were folk that had wrong opinions and perceptions and doctrines on how one is made right with God. When God gives them repentance that corrects their wrong thinking ! Gods repentance leads to the right doctrine. Acts 2:41-42
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Did you know that repentance was primarily from false religion? On the day of Pentecost Peters audience was pretty much religious people from among the jews, I believe they were moral and respectable jewish citizens, not a bunch of drunkards and drug addicts, fornicators and thieves. No they were folk that had wrong opinions and perceptions and doctrines on how one is made right with God. When God gives them repentance that corrects their wrong thinking ! Gods repentance leads to the right doctrine. Acts 2:41-42
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Scripture does not state "secretly, unknown to him, he became dead to the Law by the Body of Christ". More of your made up empty reasoning due to your inability to read Scripture with understanding.
Your continued assertions do not align with the truth laid out in Scripture.
The word "all" in Acts 17:30 is the Greek word pas. According to Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, when the word pas is in the plural (in Acts 17:30, pas is plural), pas signifies "the totality of the persons or things referred to."
In Acts 17:30, pas (plural) refers to men (Greek anthropos) and Acts 17:30 further indicates all men every where.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent
You place a distinction where God never intended a distinction to be made.
And your reference to Psalm 33:8-9 does nothing to support your assertion. You need to realize that God allows mankind to not fear the Lord and to not stand in awe of Him. ... even though He spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. Mankind should look at creation, see all God's marvelous works and stand in awe of Him. However, we know that there are those who reject God and believe that the whole of creation evolved from some primordial soup ...
You would have a leg to stand on if Scripture actually said as you claim ... that God commands not all men every where to repent ... or if the verse indicated God commands some men to repent. But that is not what Scripture says.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent
In Acts 17:30, the word commandeth is not in the imperative mood. The word is in the indicative mood.
In Acts 17:30-31, God gives warning that all men everywhere must repent because judgment is coming:
Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
And the reason God gives warning is because He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked
Ezekiel 33:11 ... As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...
... but you already know this.
The apostles were there because Jesus told them to be there:
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
The rest of the children of Israel were there because the feast of weeks (Pentecost) was one of the feasts the males were required to present themselves before God.
Your continued assertions do not align with the truth laid out in Scripture.
You make it a "personal choice" on the part of God when you continue to insist that before the children were born He hated Esau when that was not the purpose of God's election. The election of God has everything to do with the Lord Jesus Christ ... He is the promised seed ... and He is descended through the line of Jacob, not Esau.Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
It is right here, in red, neither child has yet been born nor have they had any opportunity to do good or evil. The first part, "being not yet born"... sets the time of the election of Jacob and the rejection of Esau. The purpose of this, is to give the election of God firm standing and to prove it was not the works of the Law or any personal choice.
When you continue to take focus off of God's objective in His plan of redemption through the Lord Jesus Christ, and misplace that focus onto mankind in general, you make assumptions concerning Scripture which were never intended by God.
What was said to her before they were born? I will show you exactly what was said to her:awelight said:
Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
That was what God said to Rebecca before they were born. God never told Rebecca "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated". For you to imply that was what God said before they were born is nothing but improper interpretation on your part.
"The elder shall serve the younger" is not the same as "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated". Additionally, God did not "reject" Esau before they were born. The statement "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" was said long, long after Esau himself was dead and buried.awelight said:
God gave us brains and He gave us His Word. He expects us to use our brains and read His Word. Find out what God told Rebecca and when. Find out where it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" and when.
What God does not want us to use our brains for is to concoct some erroneous doctrine and then pass off as something said or done by God.
The only reason you do not think it harmonizes with what Paul wrote is because you have an improper focus on God's purpose concerning election. You think God's purpose relates to mankind in general. However, God's purpose relates to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Elect. Mankind in general are beneficiaries of God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness through God's Elect ... the Lord Jesus Christ.awelight said:
Esau rejected God and God allowed Esau to reject Him. God allows mankind to reject him. You turning that fact into some sort of works related issue is a dilemma of your own making.awelight said:
Yes, God's Elect is the Lord Jesus Christ ... Messiah ... the only begotten Son of God. Those who reject do so of their own accord and not because God hated them before they were born.awelight said:
okey-dokey ... have a very blessed day!awelight said: