IN other words...........what the 1st post in this thread said was WHAT GOD SAID, not me.
Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??
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IN other words...........what the 1st post in this thread said was WHAT GOD SAID, not me.
GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, ordained deacons and Pastors ONLY? we must disagree with that assessment of the scriptures. lets see what the bible say about ordination. 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
here, the Greek word for "SET" is G5087 τίθημι tithemi (tiy'-thee-miy) v.
θέω theo (the'-ō) [an alternate in certain tenses]
1. to place.
2. (properly) to lay in a passive or horizontal posture.
{in the widest application, literally and figuratively; differs from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate}
[a prolonged form of a primary theo theh'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses)]
KJV: + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down
Compare: G2476, G2749
the KJV can also translate the word as " ordain", which is another word for "Set", as used in 1 Timothy 2:7 "Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity."now the question comes to mind, why are not Women "ORDAINED" in ... "some" .... churches today? are they not "Prophets?" for 1 Corinthians 12:28 clearly states God has set/Ordained Prophets in his church, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
so why are not Prophets ordained in todays churches, and the bible is full of women Prophets. 1 Corinthians 12:28 fully tells us God put prophets in HIS.... "HIS" ... church, read 1 Corinthians 12:28 again. and why would God put women in his CHURCH, to ... "be silent?" ... as Prophets who PREACH and TEACH. one is not playing with a full deck if they believe that.
1 Corinthians 12:28 clearly place women in the CHURCH as prophets. no one in their right mind can challenge that.
PICJAG,
101G.
Poop poop
I wrote circular reasoning! Spell check changed it to something different, I didn't catch it during the edit. My apologies!
Your problem is that you are stuck on bad translations. The original Greek is gender neutral. Paul wanted to include women and men. It's why he introduces Phoebe as a deacon at the church in Cenchrea. The rest of Romans 16 mentions many women he worked with in ministry. Including Junia, whom he calls "an apostle!" Did you know the Catholic Church changed Junia's name in the Midfle Ages to the masculine gender, because they refused to believe Paul called a woman to be an apostle, even though all the earliest texts show her name as feminine. So yes, Paul encouraged and commended women in leadership and ministry!
It's called "preconceived notions." You already believe something, you use the text to read into it what you already believed. If I had been born a man, I probably wouldn't have cared about women in ministry. Instead, God made me a woman, called me, twice. I went to seminary, earned my MDiv with honours. But during that time, I remember reading 1 Tim one night, and wondering why God even called me, if I wasn't allowed to do anything. I cried out to God to tell me why! Then next day, I walked into a used bookstore. I looked at the religion books, and there were 3 books on women pastors. Why it was right, what the Greek said, etc. I was stunned! God answered my prayer in one day. It got me studying the Bible, and learning Greek well! God didn't call me to be a pastor. I do preach in my church, but my calling is to work expanding the field of disability theology. But if I had been convinced women could not be pastors, I might have dropped out of seminary. Women are discouraged by weighty, Pharisaical non-Biblical rules that keep them out of ministry. So, I am going to defend the right of every woman to pursue their calling. I'm going to make sure the truth is known.
Some people will cling to their preconceived notions, even when given overwhelming evidence that the Y chromosome is not the entrance requirement to minister and teach the gospel. Or to be a pastor!
I am not looking for ordination, even though my Baptist Conference has been ordaining women since the 1950s. I was going to get it done, then my RA meds failed, and I faced the fact that I personally am too disabled to lead a church. But for all those women who are called by God, they have the right to be pastors, because there is not one place in the Bible it says women cannot be pastors, nor any place where it says only men can be pastors, deacons or bishops.
You really are ignorant, aren't you? I expect an apology. I did not copy and paste anything I have written.
My sources are SBL USB Koine Greek NT, Edition 5. I have the actual Bible, but for convenience, esp on my phone, which doesn't have a Koine Greek keyboard, I copy from the SBL on Biblegateway.com. I will use my Bauer, (Dankers) Lexicon, or "The Key to an Exegetical Study of the NT," but I didn't use them in this thread at all.
I have 2 years of seminary Greek, with Bill Mounce. I memorized the words, grammar and read my Greek Bible daily. I simply read the words and explained them. If you read the following sentence in English:
"It was thought by the people that no one should suffer the punishment,"
Would you read those words and say it was about men only? You might because that is your bias, but in fact, the sentence is genderless! No men or women, no he's or she's.
That's what I do with Greek. First year Greek we used all of Bill Mounce's materials. I seem to have a gift with languages. I got the award for outstanding Greek student, my mark was 100%. (In Hebrew, I got 102% because I did extra work to make sure I got my A+.)
I am not dumb! I won outstanding Geography major at Simon Fraser University, Burnaby BC, a Canadian University! But, that really was of no account! Studying the Bible, including the Biblical Languages, that is important. You have over stepped your bounds in slandering me!
Ask anyone, I've been quoting Greek in this forum for many years. I do not copy and paste articles, unless I wrote them myself. I don't do plagiarism. It is academic suicide!
Your insults are so childish, and misogynist! I'm sorry I don't fit your little narrow, concept of women, but that's who I am. My dad was a university professor, and always encouraged my sister and I to excel physically and academically. I was able to return the favour, spiritually, praying for his salvation for 31 years, when my husband and I were able to lead him to the Lord. My sister met the Lord 2 years ago, after 38 years praying for her and sharing the gospel and my testimony. Of course, God really saved them both, but I was grateful to be able to play a small part in their salvation!
Red herrings in totality
One. No on has said women are only useful for arranging flowers and producing babies. Just for the record my wife is much better than me at arranging flowers and she is definitely much more gifted in producing babies. Me zero. Wife two.
Two. No on has said that women do not deserve assistance from men.
Three. It may be significant but there is no indication at all that it qualifies them to be Elders.
Four. Yes, being male or female relates to your acceptance into the body of Christ.
Five. No one is failing to acknowledge the ministry of Corrie ten Boom or Gladys Aylward, neither of whom were Elders of the church.
Six. What that has got to do with Eldership is beyond me.
It has plenty to do with those who say women must stay silent and may not take a leadership role.
Gladys Ayleward was rejected by the Inland China Mission as unsuitable for work in China before the war. But she knew God was calling her. Now listen
There are many, many women in this place. Everybody tells them NO, you are not suited, not qualified and they point to these scriptures. Those scriptures are hard, there is no getting around that but they can be softened by a more balanced reading of scripture.
The call persists ... Gladys went to China anyway, nor was it easy.
There in the mountainous inner land eventually she established christian assemblies where the gospel never had been preached and God worked in miracles. What is she then? apostle? evangelist? pastor? teacher? among folks who never heard the gospel?.
It has been said on this thread that the pentecostals are to blame but it is a fact that on the mission fields of the world the women have always been valued.
The question is not can the women lead up a work but may they? I say they can and they may.
now you are trying to silence ME ...
may I not participate ... I promise to wear a veil.
If a man look at a woman to lust he has committed adultery with her already .....
.... is it ok then for a woman to look at a man to lust?
When the bible speaks to man or to men it is inclusive of men and women.
It has nothing to do with any poster in this forum, it's Gods clear words below, that you willfully are disobedient and rebellious to, read it again and again.
Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.
Silence, Subjection, Obedience
(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)
1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
NO it is not.
At certain times when the Bible uses "MAN" it is a different word which means HUMANITY!
In the Scriptures I posted from 1 Timothy 3:1-2.......the Greek word used for MAN is as masculine pronoun meaning "MAN".
Then in verse #2....the word in Greek for "HUSBAND" is also a masculine pronoun and it is an "Antecedent" which meand it identifes and verifies the SUBJECT in the preceding verse which was "MAN".
now you are trying to silence ME ...
NOPE!
It just seems to me that your only goal is to argue when there is NO argument to be made.
You either accept the Word of God or YOU reject the Word of God.
That is a lot of bragging!!!
An apology. Maybe that is in order.
I am very sorry that with all the perceived education and awards that you have detailed, that you were unable to simply say that.....
Major, what I wrote was not copied and pasted. I did that right out of what I know.
GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, ordained deacons and Pastors ONLY? we must disagree with that assessment of the scriptures. lets see what the bible say about ordination. 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
here, the Greek word for "SET" is G5087 τίθημι tithemi (tiy'-thee-miy) v.
θέω theo (the'-ō) [an alternate in certain tenses]
1. to place.
2. (properly) to lay in a passive or horizontal posture.
{in the widest application, literally and figuratively; differs from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate}
[a prolonged form of a primary theo theh'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses)]
KJV: + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down
Compare: G2476, G2749
the KJV can also translate the word as " ordain", which is another word for "Set", as used in 1 Timothy 2:7 "Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
now the question comes to mind, why are not Women "ORDAINED" in ... "some" .... churches today? are they not "Prophets?" for 1 Corinthians 12:28 clearly states God has set/Ordained Prophets in his church, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
so why are not Prophets ordained in todays churches, and the bible is full of women Prophets. 1 Corinthians 12:28 fully tells us God put prophets in HIS.... "HIS" ... church, read 1 Corinthians 12:28 again. and why would God put women in his CHURCH, to ... "be silent?" ... as Prophets who PREACH and TEACH. one is not playing with a full deck if they believe that.
1 Corinthians 12:28 clearly place women in the CHURCH as prophets. no one in their right mind can challenge that.
PICJAG,
101G.
My dear friend. That is a lot of work just to say...........
"so why are not Prophets ordained in todays churches, and the bible is full of women Prophets."
So what your thesis is, is that because there are women prophets those women should be ordained Pastors, REGUARDLESS OF WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY!
Well....hole on my friend, because there is NO SUCH THING AS PROPHETS TODAY!
Therefore your thesis is totally invalid!
There are no prophets today in the same sense as there were under the old covenant and in the apostolic church. Before the canon of Scripture was complete, God used prophets to maintain order and teach correct doctrine. After the canon was completed, however, prophecy began to be more of a problem than a help.
Todays so called, self annointed PROPHETS never have 100% true prophecies!!!!!!!!!
They speak partial truths, that this nation needs to repent, which is true, however that is NOT a prophecy at all! There prophecies about what's coming do not pan out.
Notice........Not even ONE of them saw what was coming for the NY tragedy on September 11, 2001 which should settle this matter for good. As Deut 13:1-4 says, (see below) we are to ignore them. We should be analyzing scripture instead. Who is it who wants us to get our eyes off scripture, anyway???
"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him."
How many so called Prophets saw and said that TRUMP was going to win......NONE!
How many said that he was going to win a second term??
All those so-called "prophets", like false Prophet Kim Clement and who , claimed Trump would win a 2nd term is one that comes to my mind.
Jude 3-4.........
"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
The author of Hebrews also said the prophets of the Old Testament were no longer needed because now we have the words of the Son of God himself:
Heb. 1_1-3.............
" In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.";(Heb 1;1-3)
Christ was the Last Prophet so there are No Prophets Today!
Notice it says "in the past" God spoke thru the prophets but NOW he speaks thru the Son and He does this through the Word in the Holy Bible. This should be enough to squelch this argument of any more of them being needed since Christ-- He was the last one that was to come that God promised to Moses (Deut 18:18).
Now there is enough information for you to chew on and disagree with so.......have fun!
first, thanks for the reply, second, lets take one thing at a time.
#1. are you saying God lied... when he said that HE "set" in his church apostles first, prophets second, and teachers third? I hope not. I can care less about selt appointed prophets, apostles, teachers, and Pastors.
God said HE has "set" in his church. READ 1 Corinthians 12:28, now, do you denie God's Holy Word, yes or no?
PICJAG,
101G.
This is the most stubbornly ignorant post I have read all week.
There are two points here so here are my two cents.
- Missionaries have a vastly different calling and nature of ministry. He moves on after establishing a church. He is a type of fisherman who collects fish into a fish farm and leaves it with a caretaker. The Pastor is a shepherd who stays with the sheep, the one whom the missionary entrusts with the flock.
- Single women missionaries have special roles in the field; the missionary-sending agencies mobilize and instruct them on these roles. They are usually limited to ministries to children, teaching, translation work, ministering to women, and other background/supporting roles. They do not become pastors in their areas of assignment. If they are married, the husband's job is evangelism, discipleship, and raising up of able leaders to lead the church as they leave and go to another field.
You are probably wasting your breath. (so to speak)
Never mind, I'm starting to like the dogmatic patriarchal reckoning where women are excluded from things. Like last days judgements
Rev 8:11 (KJV)
And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev 9:4 (KJV)
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:6 (KJV)
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:10 (KJV)
And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Rev 9:15 (KJV)
And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:18 (KJV)
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:20 (KJV)
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 11:13 (KJV)
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 13:13 (KJV)
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 16:2 (KJV)
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev 16:8 (KJV)
And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 (KJV)
And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:21 (KJV)
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
True, but we who are strong in Faith, in God's Word must bare with the weak. so stay strong. be not discourage.
understand we're in the saving business, in the world, but in the education businness in the Church. as the apostle Paul said, "I am become all thing for all men".
PICJAG,
101G.
You are probably wasting your breath. (so to speak)
Never mind, I'm starting to like the dogmatic patriarchal reckoning where women are excluded from things. Like last days judgements
AMEN, that's a GOOD, one, I almost fell out of my chair, when I read that.... LOL, LOL, LOL, I agree.
PICJAG,
101G.