Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?
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Yes, of course.
But the gifts of the Spirit are not separate from the Holy Spirit Himself. Therefore if the Holy Spirit is not present, then the gifts are not either.
They are gifts for sure, but only available to those who have their faith in Christ alone, are totally loyal to the truth of written Scripture, and are depending on the power of the Holy Spirit and not the wisdom of man. Where the wisdom of man is running a church, the Holy Spirit and His gifts are absent. This is true for the majority of Evangelical and many Pentecostal churches that have departed from the Spirit and are "Pentecostal" in name only.
But the gifts of the Spirit are not separate from the Holy Spirit Himself. Therefore if the Holy Spirit is not present, then the gifts are not either.
They are gifts for sure, but only available to those who have their faith in Christ alone, are totally loyal to the truth of written Scripture, and are depending on the power of the Holy Spirit and not the wisdom of man. Where the wisdom of man is running a church, the Holy Spirit and His gifts are absent. This is true for the majority of Evangelical and many Pentecostal churches that have departed from the Spirit and are "Pentecostal" in name only.
Next time you give someone a "gift" and tell them it is a "gift", do you impose conditions like
I think most of your potential recipients of that gift will say "Thanks but no thanks!"
- You must REALLY REALLY REALLY believe me with all your heart
- You must be totally loyal to what I said
- You must totally depend on me
I think most of your potential recipients of that gift will say "Thanks but no thanks!"
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LOL, what a strawman, You say the teaching can't be found in the bible, yet the word Trinity is not there either are you denying the Trinity too? The empowering of the Holy Spirit is very much in the Bible and the gifts of the Holy Spirit too found in first corinthians chapter 12- 14.
When you say no one can show you pentecostal doctrine, that too was dishonest, because Paul clear is teaching the gifts in 1cor chapters 12 through 14. Paul provided correction teaching and instruction on how to use the gifts of the Holy Spirit in church, what they are for, and what gifts do. If you want to see one we have a very good and extensive book named " Bible Doctrine a Pentecostal perspective"
When you say no one can show you pentecostal doctrine, that too was dishonest, because Paul clear is teaching the gifts in 1cor chapters 12 through 14. Paul provided correction teaching and instruction on how to use the gifts of the Holy Spirit in church, what they are for, and what gifts do. If you want to see one we have a very good and extensive book named " Bible Doctrine a Pentecostal perspective"
The gifts of the Spirit are not for the possession of individuals. They are supplied to the body of Christ and the Holy Spirit divides the gifts among the members of the body of Christ as He wills, not as we think we should. Paul teaches that we must follow love and desire spiritual gifts. He says that without love, we are nothing. This means that there is a condition for use a gift supplied by the Holy Spirit to the body of Christ. We must love the Lord with all our heart and love our fellows members of the body of Christ as we love ourselves.
If we really love God, we will honour His Word, and place our faith on it, instead of human wisdom. If we are not perfect in love to God and our brethren in Christ, then the gifts will not be genuine manifestations.
The reason why there is so much misuse of the gifts is because people desire them for selfish reasons. They want to possess them for themselves so they can say, "I am special. I have the gift of [whatever]". If that person tries to exercise the gift he thinks he has, he is just a useless noise and no benefit at all to the body of Christ.
We don't see the gifts being manifested very much in our churches, because too many people are walking in the flesh and not the Spirit.
Manifesting a gift of the Spirit is like working for a company and having a company car to use for business purposes. You can't use it to take the family on a trip to the beach, or shopping, or for any other personal use. You have to use the car while engaged in the business of the company. To manifest a true gift of the Spirit, you have to be fully involved in the same mission that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the church. If you try to manifest a gift for personal reasons, it will be false and not genuine.
This is why there are so many false prophecies around, given by people who are dreaming stuff out of their heads, because they are giving these 'wonderful' prophecies to show how spiritual they are, and to bolster their personal reputation.
Just like manager who will take the company car away from someone who misuses it for personal reasons, the Holy Spirit will withdraw a gift from someone in the church who likewise misuses it.
One good Bible commentator said that tongues dried up after the 1st Century because so many were misusing it, that it became discredited and people stopped seeking it. This is why tongues is in disrepute today among so many - because of the wide misuse of it contrary to Paul's teaching.
If we really love God, we will honour His Word, and place our faith on it, instead of human wisdom. If we are not perfect in love to God and our brethren in Christ, then the gifts will not be genuine manifestations.
The reason why there is so much misuse of the gifts is because people desire them for selfish reasons. They want to possess them for themselves so they can say, "I am special. I have the gift of [whatever]". If that person tries to exercise the gift he thinks he has, he is just a useless noise and no benefit at all to the body of Christ.
We don't see the gifts being manifested very much in our churches, because too many people are walking in the flesh and not the Spirit.
Manifesting a gift of the Spirit is like working for a company and having a company car to use for business purposes. You can't use it to take the family on a trip to the beach, or shopping, or for any other personal use. You have to use the car while engaged in the business of the company. To manifest a true gift of the Spirit, you have to be fully involved in the same mission that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the church. If you try to manifest a gift for personal reasons, it will be false and not genuine.
This is why there are so many false prophecies around, given by people who are dreaming stuff out of their heads, because they are giving these 'wonderful' prophecies to show how spiritual they are, and to bolster their personal reputation.
Just like manager who will take the company car away from someone who misuses it for personal reasons, the Holy Spirit will withdraw a gift from someone in the church who likewise misuses it.
One good Bible commentator said that tongues dried up after the 1st Century because so many were misusing it, that it became discredited and people stopped seeking it. This is why tongues is in disrepute today among so many - because of the wide misuse of it contrary to Paul's teaching.
I am not saying that we have today no spiritual gifts. Please dont lay things in my mouth which I dont have said. And I also not said that today God is not useing prophecie, healing ore speaking in tongues.
But, i said that the pentecostal/charismatic teaching about the baptism with the Holy Spirit and as prrof for that the gift of speakingbin tongues begann with Topeka and was nowhere taught in the NT.
And also the claim that healing is taking place as it was in the time of the Apostles is not true. Otherwise you could recognize this in every place where pentecostal and charismatics exist. But it is not.
So please read what i wrote and take not things in which i did not wrote.
Also it is questioning me that so called baptised with the Holy Spirit for empowerment people have no difficulties to ignore scriptue, practice what we also find in occultism and believing in doctrines of sects.
But, i said that the pentecostal/charismatic teaching about the baptism with the Holy Spirit and as prrof for that the gift of speakingbin tongues begann with Topeka and was nowhere taught in the NT.
And also the claim that healing is taking place as it was in the time of the Apostles is not true. Otherwise you could recognize this in every place where pentecostal and charismatics exist. But it is not.
So please read what i wrote and take not things in which i did not wrote.
Also it is questioning me that so called baptised with the Holy Spirit for empowerment people have no difficulties to ignore scriptue, practice what we also find in occultism and believing in doctrines of sects.
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What i see is somewhat of a double bind. People will say that healers , miracle workers and tongues ( ecstatic utterances, rather than languages are still happening today just like in the 4 gospels ,Acts ect . ( And I've been in and around theses circles before. ) They will say they are occurring, but heres the issue . Its a double bind in the sense of its unfalsifiable. Your caught in a double bind in several ways . Usually a guilt trip . I have friends who run a missionary organisation where they will go to 'unreachable ' places and they go and live there ,to learn their language for months sometimes years , to share the bible in their language . Now the obvious implication is ,wouldn't this be a perfect place for the gift of ' tongues ' to be needed ? well the answer is often , " well they don't believe in the gift so the Holy spirit can't operate. Hmmm ?
Its the same in certain churches, were 'believing or not believing is the criteria . Inspite of many praying earnestly for these types of gifts . Then there's ' healings ' . The same double bind . Either the person involved didn't have enough faith or we see it as unverified leg lengthening, Muscle aches and other such ailments where the person claims they felt some tingling and heat ect . But the instances we see in the bible is immediate and undoubtedly full recovery . Mark 16 says " shall recover when hands laid on them " .
The guilt trip is usually surrounding the ' blasphemy of the Holy Spirit ' ,where the person is made to feel he's close to commiting this because he's doubtful or questioning theses matters . People are made to feel bad why they are not ' experiencing 'these things. Because people aren't ' allowing the spirit to move ' ect .
Its always Africa or somewhere we're we hear about it from someone who heard from someone ,whos brothers, uncles , cousins neighbour Rose from the dead or something. Many are doubtful they are saved because of that annoying friend who 'hears from the Lord audibly every five minutes ' . Or will be in one of those churches which is expecting all these things to take place every Sunday morning . Its always someone else s church that I've never attended.
Don't get me wrong God heals , God does miracles, God has done many things in my life that would take to long to list here. But I've never seen these' healers ' heal ? I've never heard an interpretation of a tongue ' ,that was clearly from God . Usually its just a general,generic Feel good word that everyone forgets ,because it is kinda pointless . This is not what we see in the bible .
Its the same in certain churches, were 'believing or not believing is the criteria . Inspite of many praying earnestly for these types of gifts . Then there's ' healings ' . The same double bind . Either the person involved didn't have enough faith or we see it as unverified leg lengthening, Muscle aches and other such ailments where the person claims they felt some tingling and heat ect . But the instances we see in the bible is immediate and undoubtedly full recovery . Mark 16 says " shall recover when hands laid on them " .
The guilt trip is usually surrounding the ' blasphemy of the Holy Spirit ' ,where the person is made to feel he's close to commiting this because he's doubtful or questioning theses matters . People are made to feel bad why they are not ' experiencing 'these things. Because people aren't ' allowing the spirit to move ' ect .
Its always Africa or somewhere we're we hear about it from someone who heard from someone ,whos brothers, uncles , cousins neighbour Rose from the dead or something. Many are doubtful they are saved because of that annoying friend who 'hears from the Lord audibly every five minutes ' . Or will be in one of those churches which is expecting all these things to take place every Sunday morning . Its always someone else s church that I've never attended.
Don't get me wrong God heals , God does miracles, God has done many things in my life that would take to long to list here. But I've never seen these' healers ' heal ? I've never heard an interpretation of a tongue ' ,that was clearly from God . Usually its just a general,generic Feel good word that everyone forgets ,because it is kinda pointless . This is not what we see in the bible .
Your response is another evading of the truth that there are few (if any) true cases of speaking in tongues today. As such, it means everyone today does not wholeheartedly believe in Christ, but instead are all double minded, putting our faith in God and Mammon.
I will acknowledge this truth, as it will at some point set me free according to the Word. If on the other hand I continue to make up fables for why people today are not speaking in tongues or doing any of the other miracles that Christ said would follow those who believe in Him, then it will only result in my continuing to remain in darkness.
I will acknowledge this truth, as it will at some point set me free according to the Word. If on the other hand I continue to make up fables for why people today are not speaking in tongues or doing any of the other miracles that Christ said would follow those who believe in Him, then it will only result in my continuing to remain in darkness.
really ?
Please remember what you have said :
- “today nobody could Show me that this Pentecostal doctrine was taught to the believers of the NT”
- “I mean the teaching what is called the 2nd blessing ore the empowerment with the Holy Spirit, which is taught in various forms since Azusa.”
- “You are right, all scriptures (66books) are from God. But if you believe all the scripture is for us Christians you are wrong. “
- “Thats correct., and they used it manly for jews, because the OT is about their history with God.
" you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you. "
You will see this happen in Acts 2:4 Acts 11:15–16: , Acts 19:1–6 all done prior to and taught prior to the 1900s. Paul Who taught on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1corthinaians chapters 12 through 14 NEVER Said the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased.
Those in the 1900's that you like to speak about looked at only one book to formulate what you call Pentecostal doctrine, that was the bible.
And church history gives the real reasons why the gifts dried up and declined. It was the church departed from God's standards for what the church should be, and so the Holy Spirit stopped supporting it, and for over 1000 years it became an idolatrous cult full of paganised ceremonies and rituals worshiping in paganised temples. There were attempts by groups of genuine Christians who tried to restore the church back to what God's Word says it should be, but these groups were brutally suppressed by the antichrist papal cult. It was only when genuine Christian groups got free from that bondage because of the Reformation that the Holy Spirit was able to start restoring the church to where it was in the 1st Century.
The trouble is, that most Evangelical churches have not got themselves free from the paganised temple type, man-programmed observance which quenches and grieves the Holy Spirit. But they won't admit that they are the ones at fault for the absence of the gifts of the Spirit, and so they carry on in the vain hope that the Holy Spirit might start supporting and working with them one day.
The trouble is, that most Evangelical churches have not got themselves free from the paganised temple type, man-programmed observance which quenches and grieves the Holy Spirit. But they won't admit that they are the ones at fault for the absence of the gifts of the Spirit, and so they carry on in the vain hope that the Holy Spirit might start supporting and working with them one day.
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Salvation has requirements. One must believe the true Gospel of Christ, and put total faith and trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. The Scripture says that it those who persevere to the end are the ones who will be saved. Although the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, when one turns from Christ and rejects Him rejects the gift of salvation and throws it back in God's face. The book of Hebrews tells us that if one who has tasted of the good things of God, turns away from Christ, he crucifies Christ afresh and treads His blood underfoot, and therefore there no further possibility of salvation.