REVELATION STUDY

[Rondonmon]

You said "enter". Where is the word enter in that verse? If I enter a Walmart do I get to inherit it?

Now that you see you were wrong you are trying to be funny. I laughed.

No, it does not say that. No scripture says that.

Do you not understand PLAIN English? Are you actually this slow at catching on to these phrases in all things brother? Do you not understand that to inherit means to GAIN HEAVEN as a reward, which means you GO THERE? Really?

Do you not know the reason Jesus on the cross uttered "My God, my God, why have you forsaken (left) me?" It was because God can not be present sin, thus God had to leave Jesus on the cross all alone whilst he had all of our sins upon him, what do you think it meant? God's Holy Presence would destroy sin. No Flesh and blood can enter heaven save Jesus whose flesh and blood were not corrupt, now you name me another man who was not born in sin and needed purging. This is just you trying to avoid admitting you were wrong.

This actually applies to you not me.

Sad

That isn't found in Revelation. You have made that up using your own circular logic. I stopped reading here because what's the point when everything is wrong and not even found in the bible.

Yes, sir, I have been a preacher 35 years, and you have been on these Message boards preaching Eschatology wrong to whoever reads it. Come on man. You are not called for this, its obvious.

 

[awelight]

However, there are two raptures in Revelation. The first is in Revelation 11, and the second is in Revelation 14.

While I don't disagree that there is a "taking up" or "snatching away" discussed in Rev. 11 & 14, one must ask the question though, "Should these events be mixed in with what is typically considered The Rapture of Eschatological studies? If one says yes, then Enoch and Elijah and our Lord would have to be included.

I believe these individuals who have been taken up are principles laying the ground work for The Rapture but should not be discussed as a rapture because it muddies the waters of a clear understanding of a future event.

 

[awelight]

They were at the Transfiguration with Jesus. Elijah and Moses already have Glorious bodies. There is ZERO REASON for them to die, save one reason. Them DYING gives us the perfect timelines of the Beast and when all the events happen. This is only understandable once we understand the 1335 is the Two-witnesses showing up 1335 days before the Second Coming, which ends all these wonders. Then we understand the Two-witnesses 1260 days started 75 days BEFORE the Beasts 1260 days which starts at the 1260 event and runs of course for the next 1260 days. So, why do they have to die? God has been protecting them like he has SEALED His Angels and the 144,000, so why do they all of the sudden die? So we will know the 7th Trump blows 75 days before Jesus returns, thus the 75 days that they arrive BEFORE the Beast conquers Jerusalem and the MANY Nations in the Region, is also the difference in the number of days they must leave their offices before the Beast gets killed and thus leaves his "OFFICE" as the Beast. By JUXTAPOSING the two timelines, via when they both show up, and when they die, we can understand the timeline perfectly.

Elijah and Moses have glorious bodies, they have been dead a long, long time sir.

There is no Scriptural proof that the witnesses in Ch. 11 of Revelation are Moses and Elijah. The Scriptures simply say that God gives authority to two witnesses. These would have to be flesh and blood individuals otherwise they could not be killed. Both Moses and Elijah are in their glorified bodies as proven by the Mount of Transfiguration. These bodies cannot be killed, as they are flesh and bone and contain not the blood lifeforce. These bodies are sustained by the power of God alone.

Perhaps your post confused what you were trying to get across. These two witnesses would receive a glorified body in their translation into Heaven but not while they were on the earth.

Your statement that seems to have caused confusion is this:

"Elijah and Moses already have Glorious bodies. There is ZERO REASON for them to die, save one reason. Them DYING gives us the perfect timelines of the Beast and when all the events happen."

In your statement, "There is ZERO REASON for them to die..... Is the pronoun "them", going back to Elijah and Moses or to the two witnesses?

 

[awelight]

Now that you see you were wrong you are trying to be funny. I laughed.


Do you not understand PLAIN English? Are you actually this slow at catching on to these phrases in all things brother? Do you not understand that to inherit means to GAIN HEAVEN as a reward, which means you GO THERE? Really?

Do you not know the reason Jesus on the cross uttered "My God, my God, why have you forsaken (left) me?" It was because God can not be present sin, thus God had to leave Jesus on the cross all alone whilst he had all of our sins upon him, what do you think it meant? God's Holy Presence would destroy sin. No Flesh and blood can enter heaven save Jesus whose flesh and blood were not corrupt, now you name me another man who was not born in sin and needed purging. This is just you trying to avoid admitting you were wrong.


Sad



Yes, sir, I have been a preacher 35 years, and you have been on these Message boards preaching Eschatology wrong to whoever reads it. Come on man. You are not called for this, its obvious.

I agree with your point about why Jesus was forsaken on the cross. Jesus had led a perfect, sinless life. His human nature was Impeccable and knew no sin, indeed He could not be tempted. If He could have been, then His nature would have been Peccable and He would have been disqualified as the lamb without spot or blemish. (And yes, I am aware of some of the unfortunate bad translations which say He was tempted, when they should have used the word "tested" or "tried"). He was alone when God was exacting punishment for the sins of His people imputed to Jesus Christ. The penalty, as we all know, was death.

However I disagree with you on the point of Christ entering Heaven in a flesh and blood glorified body. This will not stand the test of Scripture and indeed creates a paradox. The Glorified body is not made of flesh and blood, it is made of flesh and bone.

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The Lord here does not mention blood because He has already been glorified. If He is the only one who has a flesh and blood body. subsequent to glorification, then this creates a Scriptural paradox. For Scripture says the following:

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

How can we, in our glorified bodies, be like Him if we are not flesh and blood and He is? The only way to harmonize this issue is to understand that Jesus Christ in His glorified body is flesh and bone. Even in this understanding, we must realize that this glorified body is not as we think. A normal flesh and bone body cannot enter a room that has a locked door. Jesus passed through the solid object and yet was handled as a solid object. In His glorified body He could disappear from one location and reappear in another location. This glorified body is unique indeed.

 

[ewq1938]

Both Moses and Elijah are in their glorified bodies as proven by the Mount of Transfiguration.

That isn't proof of what bodies they have or if they even had bodies. A bodiless spirit can appear to have a body like when the HS looked like a dove.

Also, it was Christ who was transfigured not Moses or Elijah and Christ didn't stay that way so his body was not changed when the event was over because he died on the cross.

 

[Yahshua]

Jesus was not found worthy in that first search because He had not "prevailed" over death and rose from the dead. But TIME Passed, another search was made, and then Jesus WAS found worthy. God is showing is TIME and TIMING. Then what did John see?

5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. [Jesus NOT seen in the throne room, then after time has passed, suddenly appears]

John saw Jesus as He ascended back into the throne room, having defeated death, rose from the dead, saw Mary, sent her away, then ascended and immediately sent the Holy Spirit down. Again, God is giving us TIMING. The first thing Jesus does is take the book from the hand of the FAther and begin to open the seals.

100% agree with this portion.

We often read the book of Revelation as a standalone, when - if we weave it into the other accounts we're given - it's a continuation of the drama that has been unfolding the moment the Messiah ascended to heaven. "here a little, and there a little" has the Almighty given the books of scripture & prophecy, so we're tasked to "layer" these records on each other to see the full picture.

The account found in the book of revelation has been unfolding since the ascension of the Messiah and continues to this day, with a bit more still to go. But many of us find this hard to accept because we've been conditioned to believe either its events are "past" or still "future"...instead of progressive. It's like what Daniel experienced; he was given an entire timeline of humanity's kingdoms but he lived through just one small portion of it and was told he'd die before much of it would pass.

So who were his prophetic writings for? Well for those servants who'd come after him and live through more of it. It's the same with the book of Revelation. John wrote it down and lived through a portion of it but died before much of it would pass. And we're told his prophetic writings are for those servants who'd come after him who'd live through more of it...and on and on until all is fulfilled.

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So I agree that seals have been opened. I only disagree with you on "how many" have been opened and what they specifically signify.

 

[ewq1938]

So I agree that seals have been opened. I only disagree with you on "how many" have been opened and what they specifically signify.

According to the text, when one seal was opened the rest were opened also. There are no pauses in the openings. So, I believe Christ opened them all already and likely did soon after he ascended.

 

[Rondonmon]

There is no Scriptural proof that the witnesses in Ch. 11 of Revelation are Moses and Elijah. The Scriptures simply say that God gives authority to two witnesses. These would have to be flesh and blood individuals otherwise they could not be killed. Both Moses and Elijah are in their glorified bodies as proven by the Mount of Transfiguration. These bodies cannot be killed, as they are flesh and bone and contain not the blood lifeforce. These bodies are sustained by the power of God alone.

Malachi 4:5-6 tells us SPECIFICALLY that Elijah is sent to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord. Elijah was the Spiritual Prophet, Moses was the Law Prophet. Thus we get the Spirit and the Law Prophets, the Old Testament likeness, and the new testament likeness. We know one is Elijah, and Moses showed up at the transfiguration with Elijah. Them "DYING" in Rev. 11 makes my point, God allowed them to be killed like he did Jesus, but Raised them back up, Jesus took his sane body to Heaven. The only reason they are allowed to die is so we can see EXACTLY when their 1260 days end vs the Beast's 1260 days. There s no other reason, God could have just taken them straight to Heaven, but he allowed their deaths, and thus this world will know that their TIMELINES and the east 1260 day TIMELINES do not parallel exactly, thus they are the 1335 BLESSING. This also shows that the 7th Trump blows with 75 days left in the 1260 day rule of the Beast.

Perhaps your post confused what you were trying to get across. These two witnesses would receive a glorified body in their translation into Heaven but not while they were on the earth.

Elijah and whoever the there Witness is (I see it as Moses) will have Glorious bodies.

Your statement that seems to have caused confusion is this:

"Elijah and Moses already have Glorious bodies. There is ZERO REASON for them to die, save one reason. Them DYING gives us the perfect timelines of the Beast and when all the events happen."

In your statement, "There is ZERO REASON for them to die..... Is the pronoun "them", going back to Elijah and Moses or to the two witnesses?

Elijah is sent back, I see the other Witnesses as Moses. I am speaking of the Two-witnesses.

 

[Rondonmon]

100% agree with this portion.

We often read the book of Revelation as a standalone, when - if we weave it into the other accounts we're given - it's a continuation of the drama that has been unfolding the moment the Messiah ascended to heaven. "here a little, and there a little" has the Almighty given the books of scripture & prophecy, so we're tasked to "layer" these records on each other to see the full picture.

The account found in the book of revelation has been unfolding since the ascension of the Messiah and continues to this day, with a bit more still to go. But many of us find this hard to accept because we've been conditioned to believe either its events are "past" or still "future"...instead of progressive. It's like what Daniel experienced; he was given an entire timeline of humanity's kingdoms but he lived through just one small portion of it and was told he'd die before much of it would pass.

So who were his prophetic writings for? Well for those servants who'd come after him and live through more of it. It's the same with the book of Revelation. John wrote it down and lived through a portion of it but died before much of it would pass. And we're told his prophetic writings are for those servants who'd come after him who'd live through more of it...and on and on until all is fulfilled.

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So I agree that seals have been opened. I only disagree with you on "how many" have been opened and what they specifically signify.

This is erroneous, no Seals gave been opened. The First Four is the Anti-Christ, the 5th is the Anti-Christ, all 5 PROPHESY what he brings to earth via his 42-month rule !! He CONQUERS, thus brings War by taking away the Peace, his wars bring 42 months of Famine, and his 42-month rule brings Death/Sickness and the Grave. The Martyrs are those Saints we kills over his 42-month rule. The 6th Seal is Jesus prophesying God's Wrath is about to fall over the next 42 months. The Seals ARE NOT ACTIONABLE. They are Prophetic utterances. This is why all 6 cover the exact same time period. The A.C. understands Dark Sentences, Satan whispers to him, he understands he needs to WAIT for fir the DOTL Asteroid Strike that is going to wipe out a 1/3 of the world, then he goes forth Conquering on that SAME DAY. (The DOTL) Thus the Rev. 8 Asteroid strike (Mountain cast into the Sea) brings FIRE/Tree burning, brings a great IMPACT like an earthquake, brings Nuclear Fallout (Wormwood) and it dims the light from the Sun and Moon by 1/3 because of all the smoke and debris. Thus the 6th Seal and Joel 2:31 both come to pass via the Fourth Trumpet sounding.

It has nothing to do with Jesus not being found IN HEAVEN.....He was also not found on the earth nor under the erth, thus he's a NOWHERE MAN !! LOL...............All John was doing was pointing out Jesus WORTH.

 

[Rondonmon]

I agree with your point about why Jesus was forsaken on the cross. Jesus had led a perfect, sinless life. His human nature was Impeccable and knew no sin, indeed He could not be tempted. If He could have been, then His nature would have been Peccable and He would have been disqualified as the lamb without spot or blemish. (And yes, I am aware of some of the unfortunate bad translations which say He was tempted, when they should have used the word "tested" or "tried"). He was alone when God was exacting punishment for the sins of His people imputed to Jesus Christ. The penalty, as we all know, was death.

However I disagree with you on the point of Christ entering Heaven in a flesh and blood glorified body. This will not stand the test of Scripture and indeed creates a paradox. The Glorified body is not made of flesh and blood, it is made of flesh and bone.

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The Lord here does not mention blood because He has already been glorified. If He is the only one who has a flesh and blood body. subsequent to glorification, then this creates a Scriptural paradox. For Scripture says the following:

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

How can we, in our glorified bodies, be like Him if we are not flesh and blood and He is? The only way to harmonize this issue is to understand that Jesus Christ in His glorified body is flesh and bone. Even in this understanding, we must realize that this glorified body is not as we think. A normal flesh and bone body cannot enter a room that has a locked door. Jesus passed through the solid object and yet was handled as a solid object. In His glorified body He could disappear from one location and reappear in another location. This glorified body is unique indeed.

Jesus is God, thus his body was ALWAYS Glorified.

 

[Yahshua]

According to the text, when one seal was opened the rest were opened also. There are no pauses in the openings. So, I believe Christ opened them all already and likely did soon after he ascended.

Well, not necessarily. According to the text, when one seal was opened a horseman was loosed or an event occurred. One of the four great creatures at the throne even said, "come!". There's a break in the narrative to explain what happens as a result.

Revelation 6:1
I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

^This was the event of the 1st seal: The Conquerer is loosed to ride out and conquer. We're given a lot of necessary text between each seal.

This is erroneous, no Seals gave been opened. The First Four is the Anti-Christ, the 5th is the Anti-Christ, all 5 PROPHESY what he brings to earth via his 42-month rule !!

I beg to differ. Let's reference the prophecy The Messiah gave the disciples at the Mt. of Olives. Notice how they mirror the events found at the opening of the seals:


Matthew 24-4-16 (listed):

- Deception

- Wars

- Famines

- Earthquakes

- Persecution/death of "them" (His specific disciples) for their testimony

- Lack of brotherly love spreads...

- The abomination of DESOLATION; Flee to mountains!

- Time of Great Tribulation begins

- Days cut short because of the elect

- Fearful events & signs from heaven

- The Son of Man comes


Mark 13-4-16 (listed):

- Deception

- Wars

- Earthquakes

- Famines

- Persecution/death of "them" (His specific disciples) for their testimony

- Lack of brotherly love

- The abomination of DESOLATION; Flee to mountains!

- Days of Tribulation begins

- Days cut short because of the elect

- Fearful events & signs from heaven

- Son of Man comes


Luke 21:8-21 (listed):

- Deception

- Wars

- Earthquakes

- Famines

- Pestilences (diseases)

- Fearful events & signs from heaven ("but before this")

- Persecution/death of "them" (His specific disciples) for their testimony

- Betrayal of kin

- Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its DESTRUCTION is near; Flee to mountains!

- Time of Great Tribulation begins (lit. wrath against these people; Jews) until time of gentiles fulfilled

- Fearful events & signs from heaven (mentioned again)

- Son of Man comes


The above are three testimonies confirming the order of events. Now let's list the seals...

1st Seal: White Horseman (Conquerer)

2nd Seal: Red Horseman (Removal of peace = War)

3rd Seal: Black Horseman (Finances = Famine)

4th Seal: Pale Horseman (Death = Pestilence)

5th Seal: Souls of God's servants killed for their testimony (same words The Messiah's used for His disciples)

6th Seal: Signs in the heavens; the wrath of the Lamb

<break>: Marking of the 144,000 and introduction of a great multitude who come out of Great Tribulation

7th Seal: Trumpet judgments begin...

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Notice how the seals match the events of The Messiah's prophecy as recorded by Matthew, Mark, and Luke. But the one event we want focus on is the persecution of Messiah's disciples.

The Messiah specifically told His disciples they would be persecuted for their testimony. We know that the martyrdom of His servants is recorded in the 1st century AD/CE prior to the 70AD/CE destruction of Jerusalem.

Revelation 6 says the persecution of God's servants would occur at the breaking of the 5th seal.

This means the 5th seal occurred in the 1st century AD/CE prior to 70AD/CE destruction of Jerusalem...which means the four horsemen had to have been loosed in the 1st century also.

Now, with regard to the 1st horseman, many will argue that it's the spirit of antichrist...and I have no problem with this interpretation. In fact, it would mean the loosing of the 1st horseman coincides with the false gospel that began spreading in the 1st century, which the disciples earnestly warned new converts about (including Paul during his ministry recorded in Acts); "earnestly contend for the original faith..."

 

[ewq1938]

Well, not necessarily. According to the text, when one seal was opened a horseman was loosed or an event occurred.

No event or action occurs when a seal is opened. All the seals do is provide info about future events. They are mini prophecies inside of Revelation.

One of the four great creatures at the throne even said, "come!".

Well, it was "come and see". These are prophetic visions not things that happen when each seal is opened.

 

[Yahshua]

These are prophetic visions not things that happen when each seal is opened.

I don't know what to tell ya if you don't want to accept what the text says...

Revelation 1:19
Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.


Revelation 6: 1-2
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


Revelation 6: 3-4
And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


Revelation 6: 5-6
And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


Revelation 6: 7-8
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


Revelation 6: 9-11
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Revelation 6: 12-17
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Revelation 8:1
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.


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The first step in trying to understand scripture is accepting what the text says. The text tells us that things happen when each seal is opened.

 

[Rondonmon]

I beg to differ. Let's reference the prophecy The Messiah gave the disciples at the Mt. of Olives. Notice how they mirror the events found at the opening of the seals:


Matthew 24-4-16 (listed):

- Deception

- Wars

- Famines

- Earthquakes

- Persecution/death of "them" (His specific disciples) for their testimony

- Lack of brotherly love spreads...

Well, at least unlike many, you do understand the Birth pangs lead unto THE END (70th week) and are not THE END. These Wars, Pestilence, Earthquakes, etc. lead us unto the 70th-week baby which is (THE END). Jesus said in verses 4-6 that THE END is not yet, he was referring to the 70 AD sacking of Jerusalem, he was basically warning them, do not come to Jerusalem looking for me, it won't be me and you will be killed. THE END is by and by (LATER ON). Then he tells them EXACTLY WHEN THE END comes !!

He tells the Disciples their fate at this time also, he gives them the very end via Nations vs. Nation (Ethos or Race) vs. Ethos, Earthquakes, and Pestilence (the Black Plague killed 35-75 million people Covid 19). Then he tells the Disciples they will be killed (save for John of course) and hated, and he also warns them they MUST ENUDUE [till the end of their LIVES] as Paul stated, the race is a marathon, not a sprint. THEN..........Jesus tells them that when the Gospel is taken unto all the world, THEN.........THE END will come. The Disciples knew about India and China, so they knew the end was nowhere close to coming after Jesus explained this unto them, thus they did not return to Jerusalem when they heard the rumors of wars, etc. just before 70 AD. Then Jesus begins the 70th-week explanation, via verse 15 and the AoD which the disciples then understood was the far away END TIMES.

But please tell me, brother, why does this post you made mean the Seals have to be "OPENED ALREADY" ? The Seals, even in Revelation are not actionable, they are prophetic utterances by Jesus. A seal on a letter kept the contents from being read, so why do you think God/Jesus used a SEALED SCROLL and then broke those very principles He was using? The Judgment Scroll can not be read until ALL SEVEN SEALS are off the Scroll. "If I told you, hey Yashua, come let me show you what is inside of my closet, I just got a huge mystery gift in the mail, come and see"!! Then I said let me take these 7 locks off first and proceeded to take off the first lock. Then, I excitedly start DESCRIBING what you are about to see inside (I got this set of Speakers that are out of this world man). QUESTION, Have you seen anything yet? No, of course not, the other 6 locks are still on the door !! Likewise, I open another lock and talk about what you are "GOING TO SEE IN A FEW MINUTES" (Prophecy or FUTURE EVENTS), and I then speak of my 10,000 dollar suit someone sent me. Again, you still can not see inside the locked (LOCKED as in STILL LOCKED) closet, because there are still 5 locks on it. I do this all the way unto lock number 7 where after I unlock it, I stop talking about what you are ABOUT TO SEE (Silence in Heaven) and I open the door to show you what is in the closet (thus in Rev. 8 the same thing happens, the 7 Trumps are READIED by the Angels, WE CAN SEE what they are bringing forth in the Judgments on earth being readied. 7 Trumpet Judgments are coming).

So, the scenario I laid out above is exactly what Jesus did in Rev. 6 via the Seals, that is why Seal number 7 is NOT OPENED in Rev. 6, but after Rev. 7, where the Jews are Fleeing Judea, and at the time the Trumps are READIED in Rev. 8, because they Seals OPEN the Trumpet Closet so to speak, that is what they do, Jesus is just PROPHESYING what is about to befall mankind over the next 42 months. The first 5 Seal "PROPHESIES" are in relation to what the Anti-Christ is going to do, the 6th Seal PROPHESY is in relation as per to what God's Wrath is going to bring !! That is why it MATCHES Trumpet #4. The Sun and Moon go dark. It's time to allow God to teach us His truths and to stop listening to men, that is what did 5 years ago, thus I got a FRESH START after 35 years, I had to purge the WRONG IDEAS that were roadblocks unto God's directions!!

I will stop here and continue the response in another post. I am trying to reform my SUPER LONG POSTS.

 

[Rondonmon]

- The abomination of DESOLATION; Flee to mountains!

- Time of Great Tribulation begins

- Days cut short because of the elect

- Fearful events & signs from heaven

- The Son of Man comes

Some others erroneously have the sorrows or troubles in the 70th week via verses 4-14, but of course, they are in error, that is all about the Church Age sorrows that BIRTH the 70th week. Here, you guys have a "MODIFIED VERSION" where, since you say only a part of the Seals have been opened, thus you have to split up the Matthew 24 troubles into the Church Age AND the 70th week, where they look at the 70th week as this Matt. 24 "SORROWS" for the most part. Both are erroneous thinkings, the Church Age ENDS in verse 14, everything before verse 14 is the Church Age Sorrows, everything after verse 14 is the coming 70th week End Time Troubles Daniel spoke of and Jesus quoted him on. Jesus is the one who told Daniel, so essentially, Jesus quoted Jesus in Matt. 24.

The above are three testimonies confirming the order of events. Now let's list the seals...

1st Seal: White Horseman (Conquerer)

Jesus Prophesies a White Horse Conqueror will conquer for 42 months, we know it's 42 months because Jesus (Man in Linen) told us that here..........Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

PLAIN SPEAK: From the time HE (Anti-Christ) conquers the holy peoples (which speaks of their place/city/home/Jerusalem as them being the CALLED OUT ONES of God or CONSECRATED ONES), there will be 1260 days until ALL THESE WONDERS END (Jesus' Second Coming).

So, the White Horse is the Anti-Christ, not Jesus 2000 years ago, if that's even what you suppose, as some do. I guess yu guys think differently seeing as you have the other horses as here also.

2nd Seal: Red Horseman (Removal of peace = War)

Which IMPLIES WHAT? That a peace has to be MADE FIRST, God could have just stated that HE (Anti-Christ is the Red Horse) would bring Wars, but God wanted us to know he rides in on a FAKE PEACE first. This is why Dan. 8:25 says HE DESTROYS MANY by Peace. Thus the Peace that is taken away is via the Anti-Christ also. That is what Jesus prophesies in Seal #2.

3rd Seal: Black Horseman (Finances = Famine)

Since this man brings 42 months of wars and WARS always bring Famine, this is a NO BRAINER. He kills 1/4 of Mankind AND God's Wrath is falling at the same time. Yes, there will be famine as never before seen on this earth, during this 1260 day period of time.

4th Seal: Pale Horseman (Death = Pestilence)

The Anti-Christ kills 2-2.5 billion people. NUFF SAID.

5th Seal: Souls of God's servants killed for their testimony (same words The Messiah's used for His disciples)

Jesus can describe people (Disciples) being killed as Martyrs AND people who die as Martyrs in the 70th week both as Martyrs right? Or did I miss that in Grammar school? You guys try too hard man. That point doesn't even make sense.

6th Seal: Signs in the heavens; the wrath of the Lamb

We are to look at the Skies for the Second Coming IF WE ARE N EARTH, I will be in Heaven by that time. We are to look to the Skies for the SIGNS of the SEASON. And we are now in that season. I can see now what Jesus was referring to, we are to look for the Day of the Lord Asteroid (Rev. 8) Event that will come 3.5 years after the Rapture. Thus we can NOW THE SEASON. The Apophis asteroid will "pass by" on April 13, 2029, thus 3.5 years before that is the Fall of 2025. We can indeed know THE SEASON via the SIGNS in the skies. Amen.

Marking of the 144,000 and introduction of a great multitude who come out of Great Tribulation

The 144,000 is a CODED NUMBER that stands for ALL Israel. And those that are said to come out of the Great Tribulation in verses 9-17 are not this group anyway, that is the Pre Trib Raptured Church who came out of the GREAT (2000 Year Church Age Period) Tribulation of the Church. The 144,000 are all Jews who get saved during the 70th week or accept their Messiah, we know this because Zechariah 13:8-9 tells us that 1/3 of the Jews REPENT and accept God and he calls them His children, and they all Him their God. We also know that 2/3 will refuse to repent and thus will be CUT OFF (DIE). Thus we know via common sense that 1/3 of the Jews are 3-5 million because 15 million live on earth and around 9 million live in Israel.

The #12 means FULNESS the #10 means COMPLETENESS, thus 12 (FULNESS) x 12 x 10 (COMPLETENESS) x 10 x 10 = 144,000. But it means ALL Israel or the full amount of Jewish peoples who REPENT !! It doesn't mean 144,000 actual people. They are Virgins just like the 10 Brides (Church) are Virgins, and we know half the Church will not make the Wedding in Heaven, because only 5 Virgins make it, and we see the exact same ratio in the ONE TAKEN and the ONW LEFT verbiage, don't we?

7th Seal: Trumpet judgments begin...

CORRECT.......Judgment begins here, nothing has been done heretofore in the End Times. The Seals DO NOTHING !!

Notice how the seals match the events of The Messiah's prophecy as recorded by Matthew, Mark, and Luke. But the one event we want focus on is the persecution of Messiah's disciples.

They match nothing per see brother, you guys have conflated the Gospels and the Seals.

The Messiah specifically told His disciples they would be persecuted for their testimony. We know that the martyrdom of His servants is recorded in the 1st century AD/CE prior to the 70AD/CE destruction of Jerusalem.

Revelation 6 says the persecution of God's servants would occur at the breaking of the 5th seal.

This means the 5th seal occurred in the 1st century AD/CE prior to 70AD/CE destruction of Jerusalem...which means the four horsemen had to have been loosed in the 1st century also.

Now, with regard to the 1st horseman, many will argue that it's the spirit of antichrist...and I have no problem with this interpretation. In fact, it would mean the loosing of the 1st horseman coincides with the false gospel that began spreading in the 1st century, which the disciples earnestly warned new converts about (including Paul during his ministry recorded in Acts); "earnestly contend for the original faith..."

What I don't understand is how people conflate TWO EVENTS just because boh have Martyrs? Do you realize every decade has had Martyrs since Jesus' death? This is a nonsensical talking point brother, and this is how people allowed the "WHISPERER" to tell them half-truths lie, "You shall not surely die". Again, the BREAKING of the Seals DO NOTHING, again, you haven't studied this ear deep enough, you are regurgitating OTHER MEN'S talking points, we both know that because heard this stuff 30 years ago brother. The only way to HEAR God is to shut out me, that is why the Prophets had to go into the Desert/Wilderness, to get rid of influence by other men in their lives where they could hear God clearly without being influenced by men.

Why did so MANY PEOPLE miss who was going to win the U.S. President this past year? Because many heard from God in 2016 that Trump would miraculously win thus when he won they "JUST ASSUMED" if God placed Him in the Presidency in 2016, that God WANTED him there and he thus MUST WIN, for who can be against God? I also wanted a Trump victory, and I knew he would win, but I felt in my spirit that THUG DEMONS would connive a steal, AND I had begun to see the Apophis Asteroid coming in 2029 as the Day of the Lord, thus what God wanted in 2016 MIGHT NOT BE what He wants NOW !! In other words, if God wanted to ABATE the Man of Sin coming forth for a few years he could PLACE Trump in the Presidency for 4 years, but then allow the Election to be stolen in 2020 since this man's PATH has to be made straight. By that, I think the USA must COLLAPSE, these Demon spirits know how to cause a global economic crisis, BANKRUPT America !! So, in order to do that by 2025, what I see as THE SEASON of the Rapture, the USA has to fall, thus when this man steps forth and solves everything, he is catapulted to hero status in the E.U.

End Time Eschatology is my calling brother. And it still took me 30 years to understand THE KEY.........ASK God, then He will reveal His truths, but NEVER, EVER, EVER put a Roadblock in His way.

 

[Yahshua]

But please tell me, brother, why does this post you made mean the Seals have to be "OPENED ALREADY" ? The Seals, even in Revelation are not actionable, they are prophetic utterances by Jesus. A seal on a letter kept the contents from being read, so why do you think God/Jesus used a SEALED SCROLL and then broke those very principles He was using? The Judgment Scroll can not be read until ALL SEVEN SEALS are off the Scroll. "If I told you, hey Yashua, come let me show you what is inside of my closet, I just got a huge mystery gift in the mail, come and see"!! Then I said let me take these 7 locks off first and proceeded to take off the first lock. Then, I excitedly start DESCRIBING what you are about to see inside (I got this set of Speakers that are out of this world man). QUESTION, Have you seen anything yet? No, of course not, the other 6 locks are still on the door !! Likewise, I open another lock and talk about what you are "GOING TO SEE IN A FEW MINUTES" (Prophecy or FUTURE EVENTS), and I then speak of my 10,000 dollar suit someone sent me. Again, you still can not see inside the locked (LOCKED as in STILL LOCKED) closet, because there are still 5 locks on it. I do this all the way unto lock number 7 where after I unlock it, I stop talking about what you are ABOUT TO SEE (Silence in Heaven) and I open the door to show you what is in the closet (thus in Rev. 8 the same thing happens, the 7 Trumps are READIED by the Angels, WE CAN SEE what they are bringing forth in the Judgments on earth being readied. 7 Trumpet Judgments are coming).

It's an interesting example you give...

I'm going to wait to address the reason why I believe the seals have already been opened, since (I think) we both agree that the seal must be opened at some point in time for the rest of the judgment to fall. But in terms of whether or not events occur at the loosing of seals, let's address it in parts.

We're told that the prophecy of Revelation was signified (i.e. made into signs and symbols) by the angel, so we can go back into scripture to see what similar imagery meant.

The Scroll​

Revelation 5:1-2
Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”


Zechariah 5:1-4
I looked again, and there before me was a flying scroll. 2 He asked me, “What do you see?”

I answered, “I see a flying scroll, twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide.”
3 And he said to me, “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished. 4 The Lord Almighty declares, ‘I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of anyone who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in that house and destroy it completely, both its timbers and its stones.’


Ok so it's indeed a scroll of judgment; a curse over all the earth...but this isn't the only similar image we're given, nor is it the only judgment that falls...

The Four Horsemen​

Zechariah 6:1-8
I looked up again, and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains—mountains of bronze. 2 The first chariot had red horses, the second black, 3 the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful. 4 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, “What are these, my lord?”
5 The angel answered me, “These are the four spirits of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world. 6 The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west, and the one with the dappled horses toward the south.”

7 When the powerful horses went out, they were straining to go throughout the earth. And he said, “Go throughout the earth!” So they went throughout the earth.
8 Then he called to me, “Look, those going toward the north country have given my Spirit rest in the land of the north.”


So the four horsemen are the four spirits that are sent out from the Almighty's presence to "quiet" His Spirit. The Almighty's Spirit is at rest when His anger & wrath are spent on those who do evil (Ezekiel 5:13)


We are told in Revelation 6 that "when" a seal is broken/loosed, then a horseman is loosed (for the first 4 seals), and "when" more seals are broken more happens. So if we put all of this info together we have a situation where the Almighty is judging the world in "multiple waves" that get progressively worse. It's not just one judgment from the scroll.


Leviticus 26:18
And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

 

[Yahshua]

Jesus Prophesies a White Horse Conqueror will conquer for 42 months, we know it's 42 months because Jesus (Man in Linen) told us that here..........Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

PLAIN SPEAK: From the time HE (Anti-Christ) conquers the holy peoples (which speaks of their place/city/home/Jerusalem as them being the CALLED OUT ONES of God or CONSECRATED ONES), there will be 1260 days until ALL THESE WONDERS END (Jesus' Second Coming).

The Man in linen (who I agree was the pre-incarnate Messiah, since linen garments are High Priest garments), told Daniel that from the time the daily (sacrifice) is taken away until the abomination of desolation is set up shall be 1290 days (Daniel 12:11). This sets the start of the countdown until the Abomination of Desolation would stand, leading to the 1260 days.

Daniel knew what the daily was since he was a servant in the temple. The daily is the morning & evening sacrifice and the holy fire that was meant to burn continually (i.e. never let die). Daniel witnessed the daily taken away when Solomon's temple was desecrated in 606 BCE. 1290 days from 606 BCE brings us to approx. 603 BCE, which isn't a significant date at all. No abomination was built.

But when we read 1290 days as literal years, then 606 BCE + 1290 years = 685 CE which just so happens to be the date the Dome of the Rock was built in Jerusalem. So the timing of the tribulation to scatter the power of the holy people (after the abomination of desolation is set up) is also more plausibly interpreted as 1260 years, not days.

685 CE + 1260 years = 1945 CE (significant date)
685 CE + 1335 years = 2020 CE

Which IMPLIES WHAT? That a peace has to be MADE FIRST, God could have just stated that HE (Anti-Christ is the Red Horse) would bring Wars, but God wanted us to know he rides in on a FAKE PEACE first. This is why Dan. 8:25 says HE DESTROYS MANY by Peace. Thus the Peace that is taken away is via the Anti-Christ also. That is what Jesus prophesies in Seal #2.

Let me ask you, do you believe there is an altar of incense in heaven from which fire is thrown down to the earth?

Jesus can describe people (Disciples) being killed as Martyrs AND people who die as Martyrs in the 70th week both as Martyrs right? Or did I miss that in Grammar school? You guys try too hard man. That point doesn't even make sense.

Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation with the least assumptions added. You're adding the idea of a 70th week to the text given when it simply says His servants were killed for their testimony. Who are/were His servants that gave His testimony? His disciples. Where they killed for that testimony? Yes. Did He tell them they would be? Yes. When did it happen? 1st century before the destruction of the temple.

The 144,000 is a CODED NUMBER that stands for ALL Israel. And those that are said to come out of the Great Tribulation in verses 9-17 are not this group anyway, that is the Pre Trib Raptured Church who came out of the GREAT (2000 Year Church Age Period) Tribulation of the Church. The 144,000 are all Jews who get saved during the 70th week or accept their Messiah, we know this because Zechariah 13:8-9 tells us that 1/3 of the Jews REPENT and accept God and he calls them His children, and they all Him their God. We also know that 2/3 will refuse to repent and thus will be CUT OFF (DIE). Thus we know via common sense that 1/3 of the Jews are 3-5 million because 15 million live on earth and around 9 million live in Israel.

You're adding to the text. Jews are only from Judah. There are 11 more tribes mentioned. There are two mentions of "144000" in Revelation, which adds to 288k. This references King David's personal army of 288k men - divided into 12 divisions - who guarded the nation and temple (1 Chronicle 27). When going to war in the OT the men were required to abstain from women so as to not become corrupted. There are 12 gates on New Jerusalem, one for each tribe so it's not symbolic. It's the personal army of the Messiah, redeemed from men and the personal possession of the Almighty (just like the Levites were His personal possession in the OT).

What I don't understand is how people conflate TWO EVENTS just because boh have Martyrs? Do you realize every decade has had Martyrs since Jesus' death?

Bold statement. Do you have proof of this?

The only way to HEAR God is to shut out me

uhh...I think we're veering off the rails now.

End Time Eschatology is my calling brother.

Well ok...

 

[iamsoandso]

The problem is though that this is all dependent upon someone(in history) receiving the mark and worshiping the image of the beast between ad66-ad70. If we try to affix this to the Jewish peoples between ad66-70 then the clearly recorded history http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html refutes the whole hypothesis of the Jews worshiping Rome as God.

That is instead of bowing down and worshiping Rome or it's Caesars as God, instead in recorded history it is recorded that the Jews revolted against Rome and it's Caesars unlike,(completely opposite) of Revelation 13:15 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-15.htm ... The historical evidence proves that the Jews did not fulfill Revelation 13:15 in ad70...

 

[ewq1938]

There are two mentions of "144000" in Revelation, which adds to 288k. This references King David's personal army of 288k men

I like your math! Jesus is mentioned hundreds of times so I am hoping there are hundreds of Jesus's because who would want that many?

 

[awelight]

That isn't proof of what bodies they have or if they even had bodies. A bodiless spirit can appear to have a body like when the HS looked like a dove.

Also, it was Christ who was transfigured not Moses or Elijah and Christ didn't stay that way so his body was not changed when the event was over because he died on the cross.

This is really not worth responding to but here goes anyway.

Moses and Elijah have both stepped out of time into eternity upon their deaths. Since they have gone on to an eternal existence they would have to have glorified bodies in order to enter Heaven. As such, they would have appeared on the mount in their glorified forms. Christ was transfigured temporarily and talked with them in order to give the Disciples a foretaste of the coming Kingdom.