Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[presidente]

The problem is not that cessationism deny
that God is working still with miracles and healings for his gloryfication.
The problem is that since Topeka and Azuza a New teaching arose among Christians which claims that the spiritual gifts (tongues, prophecie, healings) are today the same as in the time of the apostles.
New is, that speaking in tongues is the visible sign, that somebody is baptised with the Holy Spirit. This teaching was not in the churchhistory, nor in the NT taught. Out from Acts 2,8,10 and 19 which can seen as sign for the jews an doctrine was createt which never was taught to the Christians. No Single Letter to the churches mentioned this teaching.

I would agree that Classical Pentecostalism, IMO, takes the pattern of tongues accompanying Spirit-empowerment a bit too far. In general, Pentecostals do not believe that if someone believes in Christ and he does not speak in tongues, that he is not saved. maybe 5% of Pentecostals believe that. They are in a separate, non-trinitarian movement.

And the fact, that today pentecostals and charismatics cant show that healings and prophecie are in the same quality like in the Apostles time reveals that there is something wrong.

Just like in the first century, there are true prophets and false prophets.

And healed is healed. If someone is healed, that person is healed. There have been numerous supernatural healings, Biblical caliber type miracles, in the Pentecostal movement.

Btw, did believers who had 'gifts of healing' in the first century mentioned in i Corinthians 12 have miracles that were the 'same quality' as the apostles.

And if someone is not be healed, then the reason is for shure his sin ore lack of faith,

That is not my experience, having grown up Pentecostal. You might find individual Pentecostals who think that way. It was probably more common in the Word of Faith movement in the 1980's than among Pentecostals.

 

[presidente]

When it comes to healing, I certainly wish all of these Pentecostal churches start not with their favorite Isaiah passage "By his stripes we are healed", but rather start with Romans 8:18-25.

The context there is not sickness or healing. Paul had dealt with the issue of not walking in the flesh but walking in the Spirit.

I always remind them that the apostle Paul never even taught the Body of Christ to utter the Isa passage.

There are a lot of specific passages in the Old Testament that Paul did not quote and say to read them, but he said that the things that were written for our learning. The tenor of Paul's writings is very favorable toward reading the Old Testament. Philip evangelized the eunuch out of this passage.

Matthew 8 quotes Isaiah 53 in relation to physical healing.

Rather he taught us to view all our sicknesses as light afflictions (2 Corinthians 4:17) and not worth comparing to the glorified body that we are putting our hope in (Romans 8:18).

Aside from a few passages along the lines of sickness for discipline over sin, I can't really find anything akin to sickness as 'redemptive suffering'. In II Corinthians, Paul wrote about his sufferings he experienced while preaching the gospel, persecutions and such.

I can't find any passages about how arthritis pain helps people to be more like Jesus. I do find passages about Jesus healing multiple ailments. If their medical problems helped the people get closer to God, why would Jesus heal them? And if arthritis helps old people love God more, shouldn't you advise them not to take any pain-killer and dip their knuckles in ice water to intensify the pain? If your loved ones are in pain, do you tell them to stay away from doctors, also, so that they can experience more pain and suffering and be holier?

 

[Guojing]

The context there is not sickness or healing. Paul had dealt with the issue of not walking in the flesh but walking in the Spirit.



There are a lot of specific passages in the Old Testament that Paul did not quote and say to read them, but he said that the things that were written for our learning. The tenor of Paul's writings is very favorable toward reading the Old Testament. Philip evangelized the eunuch out of this passage.

Matthew 8 quotes Isaiah 53 in relation to physical healing.



Aside from a few passages along the lines of sickness for discipline over sin, I can't really find anything akin to sickness as 'redemptive suffering'. In II Corinthians, Paul wrote about his sufferings he experienced while preaching the gospel, persecutions and such.

I can't find any passages about how arthritis pain helps people to be more like Jesus. I do find passages about Jesus healing multiple ailments. If their medical problems helped the people get closer to God, why would Jesus heal them? And if arthritis helps old people love God more, shouldn't you advise them not to take any pain-killer and dip their knuckles in ice water to intensify the pain? If your loved ones are in pain, do you tell them to stay away from doctors, also, so that they can experience more pain and suffering and be holier?

You do agree that Paul never taught us in the Body of Christ to expect anything regarding healing from our diseases?

We can pray, cast our anxieties about our situation to God and let his peace guard our hearts, that is all he said (Philippians 4:6-7)

That is really all that matters.

 

[presidente]

You do agree that Paul never taught us in the Body of Christ to expect anything regarding healing from our diseases?

We can pray, cast our anxieties about our situation to God and let his peace guard our hearts, that is all he said (Philippians 4:6-7)

That is really all that matters.

No, your theology is messed up. What Paul said is not all that matters. Paul wrote a big chunck of the New Testament scriptures, but what he wrote was not all that matters. There is the whole rest of the Bible. That matters, too. Jesus said things, too. Jesus sent Paul.

 

[Guojing]

No, your theology is messed up. What Paul said is not all that matters. Paul wrote a big chunck of the New Testament scriptures, but what he wrote was not all that matters. There is the whole rest of the Bible. That matters, too. Jesus said things, too. Jesus sent Paul.

As I said to you before, Israel was promised that when their Messiah arrives, they will be able to recognize him by the many healings he will be doing among them. (Luke 7:18-23)

Those healings are a sign meant for Israel to recognize and believe he is their Messiah (John 6:29)

The problem with the Body of Christ now is that, we look at what Jesus was doing among Israel, and we do not want to believe him when he said Matthew 15:24.

Thus, we try to claim those healings for us too, not recognizing that the Apostle Paul, who, the ascended Christ appoints as our apostle, never taught us to do that.

In conclusion, you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[CS1]

Have you ever walked by an occult type store or such and felt/heard the high pitched buzz of the lord of the flies? That is what i get from you continuationests here, downright evil comes through the lines from you guys, scary really (and you will try to twist that into your being on the right side of judgement), i see why you own your own bit of darkness here, your father of this time has given it to you. Your end is going to be so tragic and deserved if you do not turn from your false religions now.....
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[presidente]

You do agree that Paul never taught us in the Body of Christ to expect anything regarding healing from our diseases?

Paul taught that some members of the body of Christ are gifted with gifts of healing. He also healed a man who had faith to be healed. If you think Paul is the only person who taught anything valuable, you err.

 

[presidente]

As I said to you before, Israel was promised that when their Messiah arrives, they will be able to recognize him by the many healings he will be doing among them. (Luke 7:18-23)

The passage you quote does not prove that. Most of Israel does not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, in spite of the signs. There was a remnant that believed and the rest were blinded.

Those healings are a sign meant for Israel to recognize and believe he is their Messiah (John 6:29)

Signs fulfilled multiple purposes. Jesus was moved with compassion before feeding the five thousand. They were hungry, too.

I Corinthians 12 addresses former pagans and lists spiritual gifts, including gifts of healing and the working of miracles, given to profit the body of Christ.

The problem with the Body of Christ now is that, we look at what Jesus was doing among Israel, and we do not want to believe him when he said Matthew 15:24.

The fact that He would inherit the nations was prophesied in the Old Testament. After His resurrection He said that all power had been given to Him in heaven and on earth, and He sent the apostles to the nations to preach, disciple, and baptize them.

Thus, we try to claim those healings for us too, not recognizing that the Apostle Paul, who, the ascended Christ appoints as our apostle, never taught us to do that.

Paul healed Gentiles and he also wrote to imitate him as he imitated Christ.

In conclusion, you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Your arguments do not support your conclusion.

 

[Guojing]

The passage you quote does not prove that. Most of Israel does not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, in spite of the signs. There was a remnant that believed and the rest were blinded.



Signs fulfilled multiple purposes. Jesus was moved with compassion before feeding the five thousand. They were hungry, too.

I Corinthians 12 addresses former pagans and lists spiritual gifts, including gifts of healing and the working of miracles, given to profit the body of Christ.



The fact that He would inherit the nations was prophesied in the Old Testament. After His resurrection He said that all power had been given to Him in heaven and on earth, and He sent the apostles to the nations to preach, disciple, and baptize them.



Paul healed Gentiles and he also wrote to imitate him as he imitated Christ.


Your arguments do not support your conclusion.

Alright then, we can agree to disagree.

Actually, both of us gone thru all these points before here

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/why-have-the-sign-gifts-ended.196068/

 

[Aidan1]

I would agree that Classical Pentecostalism, IMO, takes the pattern of tongues accompanying Spirit-empowerment a bit too far. In general, Pentecostals do not believe that if someone believes in Christ and he does not speak in tongues, that he is not saved. maybe 5% of Pentecostals believe that. They are in a separate, non-trinitarian movement.



Just like in the first century, there are true prophets and false prophets.

And healed is healed. If someone is healed, that person is healed. There have been numerous supernatural healings, Biblical caliber type miracles, in the Pentecostal movement.

Btw, did believers who had 'gifts of healing' in the first century mentioned in i Corinthians 12 have miracles that were the 'same quality' as the apostles.



That is not my experience, having grown up Pentecostal. You might find individual Pentecostals who think that way. It was probably more common in the Word of Faith movement in the 1980's than among Pentecostals.

Well, I do not mean only the teaching that someone is saved what for example the non trinitarian Oneness movement teaches.
I mean the teaching what is called the 2nd blessing ore the empowerment with the Holy Spirit, which is taught in various forms since Azusa.

 

[Aidan1]

No, your theology is messed up. What Paul said is not all that matters. Paul wrote a big chunck of the New Testament scriptures, but what he wrote was not all that matters. There is the whole rest of the Bible. That matters, too. Jesus said things, too. Jesus sent Paul.

You are right, all scriptures (66books) are from God. But if you believe all the scripture is for us Christians you are wrong. We can learn a lot from, thats also correct. But you cant take f.e. the OT law for the church.
I mean, today you find many selfmade theologie which uses the verses how it fits to their view.

 

[presidente]

@Guojing

Can you show many any scriptures from Paul about the gifts of the working of miracles, gifts of healing, or faith that indicates that these gifts would end after his lifetime and before the return of Christ?

 

[presidente]

Well, I do not mean only the teaching that someone is saved what for example the non trinitarian Oneness movement teaches.
I mean the teaching what is called the 2nd blessing ore the empowerment with the Holy Spirit, which is taught in various forms since Azusa.

That idea did not start in 1901, btw.

Here is a video from Bible commentary author Craig Keener explaining the rational behind two views on the subject:

 

[presidente]

You are right, all scriptures (66books) are from God. But if you believe all the scripture is for us Christians you are wrong. We can learn a lot from, thats also correct. But you cant take f.e. the OT law for the church.
I mean, today you find many selfmade theologie which uses the verses how it fits to their view.

I was responding to Goujing's position which minimizes the importance of other books of the New Testament.

There is a proper use of Old Testament scripture for the church. The apostles used the Old Testament in their teaching. They preached the gospel using it. There are self-made theologies that ignore the Old Testament, also.

 

[Guojing]

@Guojing

Can you show many any scriptures from Paul about the gifts of the working of miracles, gifts of healing, or faith that indicates that these gifts would end after his lifetime and before the return of Christ?

There are none that will satisfy a continualist.

 

[presidente]

There are none that will satisfy a continualist.

Sounds like a cop out. Remove the last five words and your statement would be more accurate.

I notice cessationists are not consistent amongst themselves in their arguments for cessationism. John MacArthur relies on supposed patterns of miracles clustering together at certain points in time, which relies mainly on the Old Testament. Probably because he has read Bible scholars on the issue, he considers that which is perfect in I Corithians 13 to be the eternal state. Roger focuses on reading the idea of the completed canon into I Corinthians 13, and concludes it applies to three gifts since only those are mentioned. Some cessationists insist that only one of the purposes/functions of gifts in the OT were fulfilled, ignoring other purposes/functions of gifts mentioned in scripture.

 

[Aidan1]

I was responding to Goujing's position which minimizes the importance of other books of the New Testament.

There is a proper use of Old Testament scripture for the church. The apostles used the Old Testament in their teaching. They preached the gospel using it. There are self-made theologies that ignore the Old Testament, also.

Thats correct., and they used it manly for jews, because the OT is about their history with God.

 

[Aidan1]

That idea did not start in 1901, btw.

Here is a video from Bible commentary author Craig Keener explaining the rational behind two views on the subject:

But before 1901, is not reportet from any Christians that they become the baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign for this the gift of speaking tongues. This began in Topeka first.

 

[luigi]

There are a lot of excuses for why the healings and other miracles the Lord says will follow those who believe, are not happening today.
It is very simple why healings and other miracles that follow those who believe in Christ are not happening. It is because we do not believe. We are all double minded, having faith in both God and Mammon.

 

[presidente]

Thats correct., and they used it manly for jews, because the OT is about their history with God.

The Corinthians had enough Gentiles for Paul to describe his readers as formerly worshipping idols in I Corinthians 12. In chapter 10, he refers to Old Testament accounts written for 'our learning.' In chapter 15, he summarizes the Gospel he preached, saying that Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried and rose again according to the scriptures. Galatians also teaches out of the Old Testament scriptures.

Gentile converts need to learn out of the Old Testament.