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OK, we are in agreement here.
Could you please cite or quote the verse you have in mind. This kind of response leave one hanging. I have no idea what verse you are thinking of.
Until I have the 1 Thess 5 verse that you only refer to, I cannot make further comment. I do agree, however, that 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:17 refer to the same event. Obviously.
Exactly. And all believers since Adam are also His. Can't argue otherwise.
Well, I think your view of "in Christ" limits the scope. Everyone who ever believed is IN CHRIST'S care and salvation. That should be obvious.
btw, if you make this artificial distinction, when are the OT saints resurrected? Or ever?
I don't see how this makes any difference? Just WHO did the OT believers believe IN? Christ Himself. You are making a distinction without a difference. Everyone who has believed IN CHRIST is "in Christ". It cannot be otherwise. That makes no sense.
Glad that you bring up Moses. Let's see what the Bible says about your "distinction without a difference" idea.
Heb 11:26 - He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.
So please don't tell me that Moses is not "in Christ". He believed in Him.
btw, who was with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration?
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Jesus preached the gospel to the saints in paradise after he was crucified.
The bible says he took captivity captive..took them to heaven
They, with Jesus Are the "firstfruits".
Main harvest is the rapture.
Your template omits marriage supper in heaven...among other things.[/QUOTE]
1 Thess 4 is cited many times as a pre-trib rapture verse By itself is is only a rapture verse, because no timing comes with it. We have to read into chapter 5 to find timing information.
Many people do not understand Paul's meaning in chapter 5 where he gives timing information. Here is how I read His rapture passage:
A SUDDENLY is coming: at a time when people are saying "peace and safety" then SUDDENLY and with no warning except a loud trumpet sound and a shout (it may sound like thunder to the world) the dead in Christ fly up out of their graves.
Then Paul gives us a paradigm - bring up two different groups of people that get two vastly different results:
1. This alive and IN CHRIST get "salvation:" they get caught up and "get to live together with Him." (So shall we ever be with the Lord." This phrase proves Paul has not changed subjects. He is still talking about the rapture.
2. Those alive and NOT "in Christ" get "sudden destruction." I wondered about that and bugged God about it because it seemed the sudden destruction would come at the same moment as the rapture. I then discovered that when there is a resurrection, there is an earthquake. That made sense to me. When the dead in Christ are risen, that will cause a worldwide earthquake - because the dead in Christ are found the world around. That earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction: it comes at the same moment those who are alive are caught up.
Then Paul seems to hint that the sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath: that He, God, would not set any appointments for us with His wrath. Not to mention, a few verses before, Paul mentions the day of the Lord - just as if the wrath we have no appointments with is the start of the DAY.
Then when we study the 5th seal martyrs of the church age in Revelation, We discover another hint to rapture timing: they are told they most wait for the very last one killed as they were. I bugged God a lot about that too. I finally understood it: as they were - as church age martyrs. They have to wait for the very last church age martyr before judgment comes. Then the very next thing John wrote is the 6th seal start of judgment! I think the rapture then MUST come between the 5th and 6th seal. (I am not alone in that belief.)
For further proof, John then saw the raptured church in heaven as that great crowd, right after that (chapter 7) Therefore, it is not just Paul, I see that Paul and John agree. The rapture then will come JUST before wrath, and probably as the trigger for the start of the DAY.
I do agree, however, that 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:17 refer to the same event. Obviously. Since this is true, what we learn from one passage must be added to what we learn from the other: this resurrection of the dead is ONLY for those who died "IN Christ." Old Testament saints don't fit because they died before Christ came.
Yes, all the Old Testament believers are "his" but they never were born again while they were alive. That was impossible then. They all died with "Adam" spirits. The "church, the Body of Christ on earth" is of a different group. That is why Paul specified those "In Christ." It is the church - the bride of Christ - that is caught up at the rapture. God was "married" to Israel but divorced them. Daniel 12 shows us that the Jews will be raised after the days of GT. (verses 1 & 2)
"In Christ" refers ONLY to those who are born again: with a NEW human spirit inside. We could say our new spirit has GOD'S DNA. Adam spirits (people not born again) have Adam's DNA. The truth is, Jesus said to see heaven we MUST be born again. That means a change in our spirit man or woman. God puts to death the old Adam spirit and recreates a new human spirit. This was not possible until Jesus died and was raised from the dead. This makes the New Testament church a different group from the Old. They all died with sins covered, but NOT REMOVED. The blood of bulls and goats could never remove sins.
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