50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[TheDivineWatermark]

FreeGrace2 said:
I thought all believers knew. When Jesus died, He didn't go to heaven. He went to Hades and preached to the spirits in prison.

You had misunderstood what I put.

I was talking (in that post you're referencing ^ ) about AFTER HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD (BODILY), and AFTER HE SPOKE with MM. (What He did THEN!)

I was not referring to whatever He did after He DIED (as you seem to *think* I was speaking of, and how you ANSWERED). I wasn't!

So let's back-track (since you're still on about it)... and look at what I ACTUALLY stated in that original post (b/f we started getting sidetracked about "what happened in those three days His body was in the GRAVE").

I was saying something about the time-slot AFTER HE ROSE AGAIN and STOOD ON THE GROUND and SPOKE TO MM... (i.e. THAT day), John 17:20

(not the 'three days and nights' that He wasn't talking to anyone or seen by anyone ON THE EARTH. I'm NOT SPEAKING on that time-frame, but instead was speaking of "AFTER HIS BODILY RESURRECTION"... Read again my post with THAT IN MIND, coz that's what I was referring to, not the time BETWEEN His death and resurrection... My point had NOTHING TO DO with that, as you SUPPOSED was my point!)

Since you have rejected the clear truth of Rev 20, there is no point in explaining any Scripture to you. Your mind has been made up and you don't want the facts.

What do I reject about Rev20?

I've continually stated:

--Rev20:4a = Daniel 7:22 about (at the very least) "STILL-LIVING" saints (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) who will be seen in connection with "thrones" / "and judgment was given unto them / unto the saints of the most High" (<--not all of THESE necessarily had to have been previously DEAD [as now , at this point, 'RESURRECTED'], but I believe INCLUDE the "STILL-LIVING" saints such as Dan12:12 speaks of "BLESSED is the one waiting AND COMING TO the 1335 days"--corresponding to the 8-10 other "BLESSED" passages that speak of "STILL-LIVING saints" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth [Rev19] who will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children (ex. Matt24:36-42 [as the days of Noah were] = Gen9:1 = Dan2:35 "FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth")... NOT *every* saint will be needed to be "resurrected FROM THE DEAD" because some will be "still-living" at that point in time (I believe 20:4a INCLUDES these);


--Rev20:4b = those "saints" who will have DIED [ / been martyred / beheaded] during a very specific, limited (yet-future-to-us) time frame (i.e. 2nd half of the 7 yr trib, the "42 mos" being referenced in Rev13:5-9,1)



--"BLESSED and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" ('resurrection OF LIFE'<--Jesus SAID "I AM the RESURRECTION, and the LIFE")... These two verses are pretty much saying that every saint "resurrected" will have been resurrected BY THIS POINT IN TIME (His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age [all having been resurrected IN TIME for it, to ENJOY it, UNLIKE "the UNsaved" / "the REST of the dead" / and those just having been "SLAIN" 19:21 (<--parallel the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22(23)]). I do NOT believe the text is saying "all saints of all times" are resurrected "at this point in time" (the 2W will have already been, at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" point in time!)


--1Th4:17 isn't supplying ANY "TIMING" as to WHEN "our Rapture" will occur (in and of itself--that verse alone), I've NOT said it DOES (what I *have* said is that Paul refers to what we call "rapture" some 8-10 times in his two Thess epistles); but 1Cor15:51-54, in THAT PASSAGE (speaking of the SAME "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US / and NO OTHER saints of ANY OTHER time periods) says, "THIS corruptible" ('the DEAD IN Christ' specifically ) and "THIS mortal" (the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" part, specifically, of SAME) is telling how "death will be swallowed up in victory" for US... THIS is NOT speaking of when "the last enemy (death) will be destroyed" [ultimately] regarding all ppl of all times at the GWTj point in time (NO!... AGREE??)... but when this thing will apply to US / 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' (not even to "all saints of all OTHER time periods" because that is not the subjects PAUL is covering here)


--"first" doesn't mean (always) "first IN TIME" (rather... 'resurrection OF LIFE' [1 quality], as opposed to 'resurrection OF JUDGMENT / DAMNATION' [another, different quality])

 

[lamad]

We are waiting for this: The very conspicuous visible return of Jesus in glory, which everyone sees. His appearance.
We are not waiting for something before this.

Rom 8
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed

Col 3
3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

2 Thess1
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels

Titus 2
13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ,

1 Cor 1
6 In this way, the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you,
7 so that you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

YOU should not say "we," but rather, "I." Why? Because untold millions of believers are expecting to hear a trumpet and be caught up to meet Jesus, hidden in a cloud, NOT a visible, conspicuous coming where He will touch down. Perhaps you should study 1 Thes. 4 & 5 more closely. Paul's catching up will come just before wrath or the Day of His wrath. (Of course He will be visible to the church when they are with Him in he clouds.)

Note, the church will indeed get FINAL relief when judgment is completed. Those that "troubled" the church but be troubled by God before our relief is complete - and that will not come until Jesus comes as shown in Rev. 19.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

the "42 mos" being referenced in Rev13:5-9,1

EDIT: sry... should read "Rev13:5-7,1"...

 

[Runningman]

YOU should not say "we," but rather, "I." Why? Because untold millions of believers are expecting to hear a trumpet and be caught up to meet Jesus, hidden in a cloud, NOT a visible, conspicuous coming where He will touch down. Perhaps you should study 1 Thes. 4 & 5 more closely. Paul's catching up will come just before wrath or the Day of His wrath. (Of course He will be visible to the church when they are with Him in he clouds.)

Note, the church will indeed get FINAL relief when judgment is completed. Those that "troubled" the church but be troubled by God before our relief is complete - and that will not come until Jesus comes as shown in Rev. 19.

Sure let's take a look at 1 Thessalonians 4:16
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

So Jesus will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ rise first?

Know who else will rise first? The saints of the great tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So if the first resurrection occurs when Jesus comes, and the saints of the great tribulation are included in the first resurrection, then Jesus returns after the great tribulation? Is that what you're trying to say?

 

[lamad]

No.

On the day of the Lord when numerous things happen: rapture, resurrection, destruction of the wicked, etc. It's the end of the world.


2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Jesus describes His coming like the flood in the days of Noah. The saved will go with Christ, the wicked will perish. Your pre-tribulation rapture model doesn't leave room for anything else to happen after the return of Christ - meaning it doesn't make sense. It's Biblically inaccurate.

Matthew 24:37-39
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Paul seems to indicate in 1 Thes. 5 that the rapture will come JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord or the Day of wrath, not ON or IN that day. I am going with Paul on this.

No, it is not "the end of the world" at Paul's rapture; the entire Day of the Lord or Day of His wrath will take place after that. In Revelation, that would be everything from Rev. 8 to Rev. 19 when Jesus returns to Armageddon - and even HIS COMING to Armageddon is not "th end of the world. The end of THIS world will come at the great, white throne judgment where it is written that THIS world fled away and no place was found for it.

2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night

Indeed, Paul wrote it before Peter: The Day will come as a thief in the night (Because JESUS will come as a thief in the night). Peter probably was copying Paul. Notice though that this is the BEGINNING (will come) of the DAY, not the entirety of the day. Paul tells us of the start: in 1 Thes. 5 Paul tells us the RAPTURE will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. In Revelation that would be the 6th seal. Paul tells us that while those in Christ are being caught up, those NOT in Christ are suffering "sudden destruction" of which Paul hints strongly that is the start of the DAY.

Now, don't take my word for it, go and read in Revelation what follows the 6th seal:
Next, the 7th seal that officially begins the 70th week.
Next, the trumpet judgments taking up the first half of the week.

the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Of course this will happen SOME TIME during the Day of the Lord. But certainly not during chapters 8 through 16 of Revelation. It may well be what John describes as the heaven and earth fled away and no place was found for them.

Your pre-tribulation rapture model doesn't leave room for anything else to happen after the return of Christ - meaning it doesn't make sense. It's Biblically inaccurate. No, that is just YOUR THEORY of pretrib. You miss it entirely. Where in Revelation will the rapture take place? Sorry, it is not in Rev. 19 at Jesus coming. It is in chapter 6 just before the Day of His wrath starts.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. It is VERY EARLY in the church age when John saw them, so they (the martyrs) had no idea how long it would be before God would judge those who "trouble" the saints, murdering the martyrs. So they cry out and ask. The answer given is a strong hint to the time of the rapture. They are told they must wait for the final one of their number: the number of CHURCH AGE martyrs (Killed as they were - as church age martyrs.) What will end the church age and cause a certain martyr to be that final martyr? It will be the RAPTURE that ends the church age and ushers in the Day of the Lord, when God's judgment begins.

Therefore, the rapture will be between the 5th and 6th seal. It is no mistake that John then saw the raptured church in heaven in the very next chapter, Rev. 7 - as that great crowd too large to number: perhaps 50 generations of believers in one place at one time: BILLIONS of people. (It would take one person counting one number per second and counting 24 hours a day over 30 years to count to one billion. If a day job, 8 hours, it would take 95 years.) The raptured church will be by far the largest group mentioned in Revelation.

The truth then is, the pretrib rapture theory is the ONLY theory that fits, because GOD is Pretrib. He will set NO APPOINTMENTS for us with His wrath. The truth then is that it is your understanding of these scriptures that is lacking.

Jesus describes His coming like the flood in the days of Noah. The saved will go with Christ, the wicked will perish. It seems you don't understand this passage either! Read it again:

Matthew 24:
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Notice that little preposition "for?" Jesus is about to explain what about the days of Noah is liked to His coming. Read it carefully: they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage - in other words JUST LIVING LIFE AS NORMAL.......until that day. They woke up that day thinking it would be a normal day like yesterday was. They did not know it was to be their last day alive. Jesus is talking about the SUDDENNESS of their demise. Same with Lot. One day normal, then one day they are all gone: SUDDENLY without warning.

So when Jesus mentioned Noah, He was only speaking of the suddenness of their destruction. Therefore trying to make any other argument of what Jesus said would be in error.

Summary: John saw the raptured church in heaven before any part of the 70th week. Plain and simple.

 

[lamad]

Sure let's take a look at 1 Thessalonians 4:16
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

So Jesus will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ rise first?

Know who else will rise first? The saints of the great tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So if the first resurrection occurs when Jesus comes, and the saints of the great tribulation are included in the first resurrection, then Jesus returns after the great tribulation? Is that what you're trying to say?

You really should do your homework before writing such things.

Let's make this very simple:
There are and forever will be only TWO resurrections:

The "first" or chief of all resurrections - that one for only the righteous.
The "second death" resurrection for the damned.

Now, which one of these two (there are only two) are you going to place Jesus "firstfruits" resurrection? Will you put His resurrection in the "second death" resurrection? HEAVEN FORBID!

No, Jesus "firstfruits" resurrection must go in the only other one there is or forever will be: that "first" or most honorable resurrection that is for all saints for all time.

"First" Greek Protos: Also used in these other verses:

Mat 20:27
And whosoever will be chief G4413 among you, let him be your servant:

Mar 6:21
And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief G4413 estates of Galilee;

Mar 10:44
And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, G4413 shall be servant of all.

 

[Absolutely]

We are waiting for this: The very conspicuous visible return of Jesus in glory, which everyone sees. His appearance.
We are not waiting for something before this.

Rom 8
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed

Col 3
3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

2 Thess1
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels

Titus 2
13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ,

1 Cor 1
6 In this way, the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you,
7 so that you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen
It could be this year!

It will be like a glorious sun rise.
Some go...some stay as Jesus declared.

 

[lamad]

Amen
It could be this year!

It will be like a glorious sun rise.
Some go...some stay as Jesus declared.

When do you then expect the events of Revelation chapter 8 to 16 to take place?

 

[Absolutely]

Paul seems to indicate in 1 Thes. 5 that the rapture will come JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord or the Day of wrath, not ON or IN that day. I am going with Paul on this.

No, it is not "the end of the world" at Paul's rapture; the entire Day of the Lord or Day of His wrath will take place after that. In Revelation, that would be everything from Rev. 8 to Rev. 19 when Jesus returns to Armageddon - and even HIS COMING to Armageddon is not "th end of the world. The end of THIS world will come at the great, white throne judgment where it is written that THIS world fled away and no place was found for it.

2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night

Indeed, Paul wrote it before Peter: The Day will come as a thief in the night (Because JESUS will come as a thief in the night). Peter probably was copying Paul. Notice though that this is the BEGINNING (will come) of the DAY, not the entirety of the day. Paul tells us of the start: in 1 Thes. 5 Paul tells us the RAPTURE will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. In Revelation that would be the 6th seal. Paul tells us that while those in Christ are being caught up, those NOT in Christ are suffering "sudden destruction" of which Paul hints strongly that is the start of the DAY.

Now, don't take my word for it, go and read in Revelation what follows the 6th seal:
Next, the 7th seal that officially begins the 70th week.
Next, the trumpet judgments taking up the first half of the week.

the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Of course this will happen SOME TIME during the Day of the Lord. But certainly not during chapters 8 through 16 of Revelation. It may well be what John describes as the heaven and earth fled away and no place was found for them.

Your pre-tribulation rapture model doesn't leave room for anything else to happen after the return of Christ - meaning it doesn't make sense. It's Biblically inaccurate. No, that is just YOUR THEORY of pretrib. You miss it entirely. Where in Revelation will the rapture take place? Sorry, it is not in Rev. 19 at Jesus coming. It is in chapter 6 just before the Day of His wrath starts.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. It is VERY EARLY in the church age when John saw them, so they (the martyrs) had no idea how long it would be before God would judge those who "trouble" the saints, murdering the martyrs. So they cry out and ask. The answer given is a strong hint to the time of the rapture. They are told they must wait for the final one of their number: the number of CHURCH AGE martyrs (Killed as they were - as church age martyrs.) What will end the church age and cause a certain martyr to be that final martyr? It will be the RAPTURE that ends the church age and ushers in the Day of the Lord, when God's judgment begins.

Therefore, the rapture will be between the 5th and 6th seal. It is no mistake that John then saw the raptured church in heaven in the very next chapter, Rev. 7 - as that great crowd too large to number: perhaps 50 generations of believers in one place at one time: BILLIONS of people. (It would take one person counting one number per second and counting 24 hours a day over 30 years to count to one billion. If a day job, 8 hours, it would take 95 years.) The raptured church will be by far the largest group mentioned in Revelation.

The truth then is, the pretrib rapture theory is the ONLY theory that fits, because GOD is Pretrib. He will set NO APPOINTMENTS for us with His wrath. The truth then is that it is your understanding of these scriptures that is lacking.

Jesus describes His coming like the flood in the days of Noah. The saved will go with Christ, the wicked will perish. It seems you don't understand this passage either! Read it again:

Matthew 24:
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Notice that little preposition "for?" Jesus is about to explain what about the days of Noah is liked to His coming. Read it carefully: they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage - in other words JUST LIVING LIFE AS NORMAL.......until that day. They woke up that day thinking it would be a normal day like yesterday was. They did not know it was to be their last day alive. Jesus is talking about the SUDDENNESS of their demise. Same with Lot. One day normal, then one day they are all gone: SUDDENLY without warning.

So when Jesus mentioned Noah, He was only speaking of the suddenness of their destruction. Therefore trying to make any other argument of what Jesus said would be in error.

Summary: John saw the raptured church in heaven before any part of the 70th week. Plain and simple.

I would add it says BEFORE THE FLOOD.
That is prejudgement...pretrib

 

[Absolutely]

When do you then expect the events of Revelation chapter 8 to 16 to take place?

You talking about the gt?

The jews hidden and ac in full swing?

 

[Absolutely]

When do you then expect the events of Revelation chapter 8 to 16 to take place?

Ok you think my response to lucy is a postrib rapture response.

I am pretrib and the rapture will be like a sonrise.

No horses or killing the ac.

The rapture is pretrib.

 

[Runningman]

Paul seems to indicate in 1 Thes. 5 that the rapture will come JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord or the Day of wrath, not ON or IN that day. I am going with Paul on this.

No, it is not "the end of the world" at Paul's rapture; the entire Day of the Lord or Day of His wrath will take place after that. In Revelation, that would be everything from Rev. 8 to Rev. 19 when Jesus returns to Armageddon - and even HIS COMING to Armageddon is not "th end of the world. The end of THIS world will come at the great, white throne judgment where it is written that THIS world fled away and no place was found for it.

2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night

Indeed, Paul wrote it before Peter: The Day will come as a thief in the night (Because JESUS will come as a thief in the night). Peter probably was copying Paul. Notice though that this is the BEGINNING (will come) of the DAY, not the entirety of the day. Paul tells us of the start: in 1 Thes. 5 Paul tells us the RAPTURE will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. In Revelation that would be the 6th seal. Paul tells us that while those in Christ are being caught up, those NOT in Christ are suffering "sudden destruction" of which Paul hints strongly that is the start of the DAY.

Now, don't take my word for it, go and read in Revelation what follows the 6th seal:
Next, the 7th seal that officially begins the 70th week.
Next, the trumpet judgments taking up the first half of the week.

the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Of course this will happen SOME TIME during the Day of the Lord. But certainly not during chapters 8 through 16 of Revelation. It may well be what John describes as the heaven and earth fled away and no place was found for them.

Your pre-tribulation rapture model doesn't leave room for anything else to happen after the return of Christ - meaning it doesn't make sense. It's Biblically inaccurate. No, that is just YOUR THEORY of pretrib. You miss it entirely. Where in Revelation will the rapture take place? Sorry, it is not in Rev. 19 at Jesus coming. It is in chapter 6 just before the Day of His wrath starts.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. It is VERY EARLY in the church age when John saw them, so they (the martyrs) had no idea how long it would be before God would judge those who "trouble" the saints, murdering the martyrs. So they cry out and ask. The answer given is a strong hint to the time of the rapture. They are told they must wait for the final one of their number: the number of CHURCH AGE martyrs (Killed as they were - as church age martyrs.) What will end the church age and cause a certain martyr to be that final martyr? It will be the RAPTURE that ends the church age and ushers in the Day of the Lord, when God's judgment begins.

Therefore, the rapture will be between the 5th and 6th seal. It is no mistake that John then saw the raptured church in heaven in the very next chapter, Rev. 7 - as that great crowd too large to number: perhaps 50 generations of believers in one place at one time: BILLIONS of people. (It would take one person counting one number per second and counting 24 hours a day over 30 years to count to one billion. If a day job, 8 hours, it would take 95 years.) The raptured church will be by far the largest group mentioned in Revelation.

The truth then is, the pretrib rapture theory is the ONLY theory that fits, because GOD is Pretrib. He will set NO APPOINTMENTS for us with His wrath. The truth then is that it is your understanding of these scriptures that is lacking.

Jesus describes His coming like the flood in the days of Noah. The saved will go with Christ, the wicked will perish. It seems you don't understand this passage either! Read it again:

Matthew 24:
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Notice that little preposition "for?" Jesus is about to explain what about the days of Noah is liked to His coming. Read it carefully: they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage - in other words JUST LIVING LIFE AS NORMAL.......until that day. They woke up that day thinking it would be a normal day like yesterday was. They did not know it was to be their last day alive. Jesus is talking about the SUDDENNESS of their demise. Same with Lot. One day normal, then one day they are all gone: SUDDENLY without warning.

So when Jesus mentioned Noah, He was only speaking of the suddenness of their destruction. Therefore trying to make any other argument of what Jesus said would be in error.

Summary: John saw the raptured church in heaven before any part of the 70th week. Plain and simple.

That's funny because I'm going with Paul too!

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The day of the Lord is the return of Christ. Study it, there's a lot of evidence to prove this. If Christ returns with sudden destructiion before the great tribulation then there won't be anyone left for the great tribulation.

I think where you're getting lost is that you think the day of the Lord is a distinctly different thing from the return of Christ. It surely isn't.

The return of Christ is the end of the world:

Matthew 24:3
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Why is the return of Christ the end of the world? You keep looking at the verses but aren't taking them for what they say. You're still under the dispensational premillennial mindset.

After the great tribulation is over, Jesus comes and gathers His elect. Once the church is off the surface of the earth it's game over. God will literally melt the earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

When Paul mentions "day of the Lord" in v.1

He didn't.

You injected that idea INTO v.1.

Those words are NOT found in v.1, as you suggest.


[tho I agree that "the DOTL" is a VERY LENGTHY TIME-PERIOD...!]

and then says "that day will not occur until..."

In v.3a ('that day'), Paul is referring to what the false conveyors were purporting / alleging (in v.2!).

They were NOT purporting / alleging ANYTHING about v.1's Subject (THAT [in v.1] is what PAUL is bring to the fore!)

What the false conveyors were purporting / alleging was something ELSE.

(Something OTHER than what Paul spoke of [ONE EVENT at ONE POINT IN TIME] in v.1! )


[we have no disagreement they were speaking of "REAL" issue... it just wasn't "PRESENT / HERE" as they purported / alleged]

he's referring to the REAL event

In v.1 Paul is indeed speaking of a REAL EVENT at a REAL point-in-time.

In v.2, Paul is speaking of what the false conveyors were purporting /alleging, about an earthly-located "TIME PERIOD" of LENGTHY DURATION (and that it had ALREADY COME / was ALREADY HERE / ALREADY PRESENT and unfolding in their experience).

They were PURPORTING this.

But it was NOT (... NOT "HERE"... NOT "PRESENT"... NOT unfolding on the earth in their present experience)

Paul is telling WHY this is NOT SO.

But you are incorrectly EQUATING what PAUL was bringing to the fore, with that of which the false conveyors were PURPORTING and Paul is CORRECTING (the effects of this "incorrect" info they had been purporting)

known as the Second Advent, when He returns to END the Tribulation and set up His Millennial kingdom, which you reject.

No. "The day of the Lord" (what those false conveyors were purporting "IS HERE / IS PRESENT") was NOT [the Subject of] His SECOND COMING. NO.

"The day of the Lord" (as the Thessalonians ALREADY "KNOW PERFECTLY" that it "ARRIVES" as the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that JESUS HIMSELF SPOKE OF as its STARTING POINT [!] in Matt24:4[-8] / Mk13:5[-8] [in the PLURAL]) is what the false conveyors were purporting "IS HERE / IS PRESENT" and unfolding upon the earth, in their present circumstances and experience!



You simply do not want to acknowledge that Spirit of God had already placed that particular piece of info into Paul's FIRST LETTER (1Th5:2-3 "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" at its ARRIVAL / STARTING-point), so as to make it UNMISTAKABLE to us that the ppl in v.2 (2Th2:2) that Paul is cautioning them about not being DECEIVED by their "false info"... saying "IT HAS ARRIVED" were talking about ('the DOTL'--that THAT TIME PERIOD UNFOLDING *IS HERE / IS PRESENT*)... when in fact it WAS NOT.


(NOT "His Second Coming"<--THAT is NOT the point in time when "the DOTL" ARRIVES to commence its unfolding upon the earth... NO!
It ARRIVES at the SAME MOMENT "the man of SIN" does his first action in his role "IN HIS TIME"! i.e. "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" = what Paul ALREADY spoke of in 1Th5:2-3 [BoBPs = SEALS]... at the ARRIVAL-point of that time-period that they were purporting "IS HERE / IS PRESENT"! [not saying they would have understood it to mean "birth pangs" or even referred to it as that, at all, no] But, no... they were NOT purporting that "JESUS is here / is present"... but "the day of the Lord" TIME-PERIOD that commences WAY BACK at the INITIAL BP / the BEGINNING of BPs!! [well-BEFORE Jesus Himself arrives on the scene!!!])

 

[Runningman]

You really should do your homework before writing such things.

Let's make this very simple:
There are and forever will be only TWO resurrections:

The "first" or chief of all resurrections - that one for only the righteous.
The "second death" resurrection for the damned.

Now, which one of these two (there are only two) are you going to place Jesus "firstfruits" resurrection? Will you put His resurrection in the "second death" resurrection? HEAVEN FORBID!

No, Jesus "firstfruits" resurrection must go in the only other one there is or forever will be: that "first" or most honorable resurrection that is for all saints for all time.

"First" Greek Protos: Also used in these other verses:

Mat 20:27
And whosoever will be chief G4413 among you, let him be your servant:

Mar 6:21
And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief G4413 estates of Galilee;

Mar 10:44
And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, G4413 shall be servant of all.

Oh I've done my homework.

What you're failing to understand is that Jesus is identified as "the first fruits" (plural) of the resurrection.

Just to prove it to you, let's look at 1 Corinthians 15:20
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Meaning that the resurrection of firsfruits is the resurrection of Christ. The first resurrection is an entirely separate resurrection that happens when Christ comes:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Check Revelation 20 again. The first resurrection includes the great tribulation saints that occurs "when Christ comes."

Seeing how literally nothing you're proposing occurs before the great tribulation yet?

You really should have did your homework.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What you're failing to understand is that Jesus is identified as "the first fruits" (plural) of the resurrection.

Just to prove it to you, let's look at 1 Corinthians 15:20
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Incorrect.

The word "firstfruit" here is in the SINGULAR.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-20.htm


... and this is important.

I'm not just being "nit-picky" without good reason.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's easy to understand once you learn pretrib language:

Apostasy means leaving the planet

Glory means invisible

Revealing means vanishing

Appearance means concealed

 

[Runningman]

Incorrect.

The word "firstfruit" here is in the SINGULAR.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-20.htm


... and this is important.

I'm not just being "nit-picky" without good reason.

I'll take that. Research does seem to confirm it is singular even though at first glance it looked plural.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I thought all believers knew. When Jesus died, He didn't go to heaven. He went to Hades and preached to the spirits in prison.

You had misunderstood what I put.

I was talking (in that post you're referencing ^ ) about AFTER HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD (BODILY), and AFTER HE SPOKE with MM. (What He did THEN!)

I was not referring to whatever He did after He DIED (as you seem to *think* I was speaking of, and how you ANSWERED). I wasn't!

Well then, you have a communication problem, because your post appeared to say what I thought. I didn't misunderstand your post. You miscommunicated.

What do I reject about Rev20?

Everything about the Millennium. That's what "1,000 years" refers to, btw.

3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

So, not only are the words "the thousand years" are mentioned 5 times, the verses speak about the 1,000 years ENDING and ARE OVER.

Clearly indicating LITERAL TIME. I can't imagine what you think John meant by "the thousand years".

But it doesn't matter what you think. I KNOW what the Bible says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

TheDivineWatermark said:
the "42 mos" being referenced in Rev13:5-9,1

EDIT: sry... should read "Rev13:5-7,1"...

And you claimed that I misunderstood YOU.

You are the confusing one. Very hard to follow.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would add it says BEFORE THE FLOOD.
That is prejudgement...pretrib

It's real funny how you try to cobble Scripture together. There is NO flood before or during the Trib. Believe me.