Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?
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B
You became a christian through the Pentecostal movement, you and half of America, they are one of the few churches that are saving souls. All Africa has emerged out of the dark ages through the witness of the Pentecostalists ... they are now sending missionaries to England. India is opening it's doors after all these centuries. China is being swept by the Holy Spirit.
I see the same things you do in the western Pentecostal movement, I think it is important to not desert the field but to stay and fight.
There are plenty of good balanced Pentecostal assemblies ... nobody has to chase wildfire.
I see the same things you do in the western Pentecostal movement, I think it is important to not desert the field but to stay and fight.
There are plenty of good balanced Pentecostal assemblies ... nobody has to chase wildfire.
Thanks for your eye witness testimony and experiences concerning (Pentecostalism) mine has been the same when in attendance
You mention mentally, spiritually, and emotionally damaging?
What I have experienced, this would be an understatement.
Once again thanks!
P.S. dont worry about a negative response from the Bully On The Playground, just call for the teacher, she always puts him in the corner
You mention mentally, spiritually, and emotionally damaging?
What I have experienced, this would be an understatement.
Once again thanks!
P.S. dont worry about a negative response from the Bully On The Playground, just call for the teacher, she always puts him in the corner
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B
I don't think outliers set the standard for the norm. I think it's quite the other way around. So if you have an outlier then it behooves you to present it. From all the evidence I have experience with, and what is presented publically it's safe to say ken copeland, oral roberts and the like represents the norm. Just as it is safe to say Al Muller, and Ed Young represent the norm for Baptists
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B
Thanks for your eye witness testimony and experiences concerning (Pentecostalism) mine has been the same when in attendance
You mention mentally, spiritually, and emotionally damaging?
What I have experienced, this would be an understatement.
Once again thanks!
P.S. dont worry about a negative response from the Bully On The Playground, just call for the teacher, she always puts him in the corner
You mention mentally, spiritually, and emotionally damaging?
What I have experienced, this would be an understatement.
Once again thanks!
P.S. dont worry about a negative response from the Bully On The Playground, just call for the teacher, she always puts him in the corner
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1
- Show all
that is funny because there is a difference the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So, your opinion is not correct nor is pentecostalism promotes. Everyone who comes to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit in them.
As Jesus said, and the word of God and as the doctrine of those who are of most Pentecostals. Just like Westboro is not a representative of Baptist nor is every person who uses the term pentecostal of the orthodox church. Or and I to assume many of those here who are Bapyist race and yell at dead vert's funeral services?
As Jesus said, and the word of God and as the doctrine of those who are of most Pentecostals. Just like Westboro is not a representative of Baptist nor is every person who uses the term pentecostal of the orthodox church. Or and I to assume many of those here who are Bapyist race and yell at dead vert's funeral services?
again your comment did not have one biblical answer to the questions asked of you. Your arrogance and unwillingness to address the Gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1cor chapter 12 through 14 means and says more about your error than what you perceive as an error with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
You make a judgment on what you do not know.
it is the foolishness of those like you who think if a person seeks God and ask for the gift of the Holy Spirit as we are instructed to desire in 1cor chapter 12 -14 that
1. we get a devil instead
2. those seeking God and all HE has to offer salvation, fulfillment, and purpose to their life God doesn't answer
The very word of God tells us and so did the Lord Jesus these signs follow them that Believe Marck 16
Paul never said anywhere that we were not to seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit HE taught as HE was lead by the Holy Spirit to do so.
yet I see and many here will take note that you use no scripture in your comments just hate,
but were given the opportunity to provide wherein the word of God does it SAY :
- THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT FOR TODAY
- where does it say the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased when the bible came to be
- Those who have used the gifts for money and error that are well rebuked by those here including most all Pentecostals why is it you have not shown us or provided any proof of YOUR OWN Spiritual empowerment?
What have you done in opposition to those you say are not doing what God said in context to the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
What prise-worthy testimony do you have of You praying for someone, leading them to Jesus Christ? You surely must have so wonderful work for the Lord that testify to the Word of God in your life?
Where sin abounded grace did much more abound Please tell us of your God-given victories that produced a work of God that brought him glory?
How many have you led to Jesus? Do you have a prayer ministry? I woud love to hear it.
I am not the father of lies and please have the courage to say what you mean don't be a coward.
my name is right there CS1 I am a born-again Christian filled with the Holy Spirit Jesu is my Lord, You don't have to allegorize.
Just answer the question in context to the word of God or are you so weak and fearful to speak of the word of God as you claim to know?
Please explain as I have asked you again:
1cor 13:8-10 how is this say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped and not for today?
B
This is a non sequitur. Westboro is clearly an outlier, and examples of the mainstream norm have been provided. Mohler , Young they are along with many other very public ministries do exemplify the mainstream baptist church.
You on the other hand have not provided any examples of the Pentecostal church that are not what the public ministries have exemplified. It's not hard to show us something different than what we have seen and experienced for ourselves. You say there is something different than copeland, roberts, duplantis, I myself have asked you to show us, but you have refused.
You on the other hand have not provided any examples of the Pentecostal church that are not what the public ministries have exemplified. It's not hard to show us something different than what we have seen and experienced for ourselves. You say there is something different than copeland, roberts, duplantis, I myself have asked you to show us, but you have refused.
I think that even if he did provide a video, it would just show a group of church folk doing their programmed thing. Wouldn't prove anything at all.
What I have come to in my thinking is that those who know who Jesus really is wouldn't worry about Cessationism or Continuance, because when we realise how much Jesus really loves us, we would be so immersed in Him that these things would become a non-issue.
I don't think that Jesus really worries about whether folk are Cessationist or Continuists. They would be just religious words to Him - part of "Churchianity". True Christianity is just resting in the love of Jesus, allowing Him to work out His will in us.
The best video that I could think of is of a group of people enjoying themselves and having fun around a fellowship barbecue, talking together about how God has been good to them and expressing thankfulness that God by His grace sent Jesus to die on the cross for them. Then someone would get up, take a slice of bread, break it and say, "This is the Lord's body broken for you" and then hand around buttered slices of bread with their sausages so they could eat and remember the Lord's death until He comes. Then a glass of wine would be lifted up to signify the shed blood of Jesus, and people would filled their glasses and drink a toast to the Blood of Jesus shed for them. Then they would carry on with the fun, laughter and stimulating conversation until it was time to go home.
That would be a video of a true church in action. No ceremony, ritual, programme or anyone in authority "leading" it.
In that context, someone could say, "Hey folks, I want to say something in my prayer language. Can someone interpret for me?" Someone else may agree to interpret, so the short speech in tongues would be made, and then be interpreted so that the group is encouraged and instructed by it. This can happen quite easily in the informal atmosphere of a barbecue and consequently not be anything spooky about it at all.
What I have come to in my thinking is that those who know who Jesus really is wouldn't worry about Cessationism or Continuance, because when we realise how much Jesus really loves us, we would be so immersed in Him that these things would become a non-issue.
I don't think that Jesus really worries about whether folk are Cessationist or Continuists. They would be just religious words to Him - part of "Churchianity". True Christianity is just resting in the love of Jesus, allowing Him to work out His will in us.
The best video that I could think of is of a group of people enjoying themselves and having fun around a fellowship barbecue, talking together about how God has been good to them and expressing thankfulness that God by His grace sent Jesus to die on the cross for them. Then someone would get up, take a slice of bread, break it and say, "This is the Lord's body broken for you" and then hand around buttered slices of bread with their sausages so they could eat and remember the Lord's death until He comes. Then a glass of wine would be lifted up to signify the shed blood of Jesus, and people would filled their glasses and drink a toast to the Blood of Jesus shed for them. Then they would carry on with the fun, laughter and stimulating conversation until it was time to go home.
That would be a video of a true church in action. No ceremony, ritual, programme or anyone in authority "leading" it.
In that context, someone could say, "Hey folks, I want to say something in my prayer language. Can someone interpret for me?" Someone else may agree to interpret, so the short speech in tongues would be made, and then be interpreted so that the group is encouraged and instructed by it. This can happen quite easily in the informal atmosphere of a barbecue and consequently not be anything spooky about it at all.
That is a lame and silly argument. James was probably one of the earlier books written, written before I Corinthians which says some members of the body of Christ were gifted with gifts of healing. James shows that Christians can be healed through elders anointing the sick or through saints praying confessing sins to one another and praying through one another. That in no way detracts from the teaching of scripture that the Spirit gifts some members of the body of Christ with gifts of healing, or that God can heal through evangelists and such.
You are reading scripture with a presupposition that parts of it will not always be true. There is nothing in James that implies that idea about I Corinthians. This is eisegesis on your part.
I do not think you have read all of these writings yourself. Justin wrote that there were prophets in the church. Hermas wrote of prophecies going on in church meetings. Ireneaus wrote of brethren among the saints who prophesied, spoke in tongues, healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out demons, etc. He considered rejecting prophecy and the edification that came through it to be a characteristic of the heresies. Eusebius recorded numerous writings of believers of previous centuries. One of these, Miltiades, criticized the Montanists, who thought prophecy ended with the death of Montanus and his two female assistance. He challenged them to produce a prophet, and argued that the apostle wrote that prophecy would continue in the church until the Lord returned. The early cessationists may have been Montanists.
Since Jesus did not go clear out hospitals, as far as we see in scripture, there is a problem with your argument. If the Pool of Siloam were the cultural equivalent of a hospital, notice He healed one man there. Hospitals today are locked down and people are not be free to go in and lay hands on everyone. If healings are not happening on the scale you describe, that does not mean that they do not happen at all. There are multitudes of accounts of historical and contemporary miracles. Bible scholar Craig Keener filled up 1200 pages of a book on the subject a while back.
Btw, your argument seems to rely on experience, not the doctrine of scripture. Your approach seems to be to reinterpret scripture to fit your experience or lack thereof.
You are reading scripture with a presupposition that parts of it will not always be true. There is nothing in James that implies that idea about I Corinthians. This is eisegesis on your part.
I do not think you have read all of these writings yourself. Justin wrote that there were prophets in the church. Hermas wrote of prophecies going on in church meetings. Ireneaus wrote of brethren among the saints who prophesied, spoke in tongues, healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out demons, etc. He considered rejecting prophecy and the edification that came through it to be a characteristic of the heresies. Eusebius recorded numerous writings of believers of previous centuries. One of these, Miltiades, criticized the Montanists, who thought prophecy ended with the death of Montanus and his two female assistance. He challenged them to produce a prophet, and argued that the apostle wrote that prophecy would continue in the church until the Lord returned. The early cessationists may have been Montanists.
Since Jesus did not go clear out hospitals, as far as we see in scripture, there is a problem with your argument. If the Pool of Siloam were the cultural equivalent of a hospital, notice He healed one man there. Hospitals today are locked down and people are not be free to go in and lay hands on everyone. If healings are not happening on the scale you describe, that does not mean that they do not happen at all. There are multitudes of accounts of historical and contemporary miracles. Bible scholar Craig Keener filled up 1200 pages of a book on the subject a while back.
Btw, your argument seems to rely on experience, not the doctrine of scripture. Your approach seems to be to reinterpret scripture to fit your experience or lack thereof.
I have never seen any Charismatics using drugs and alcohol and having sex on the floor in any meeting I have been in. Maybe you went to the wrong kind of group.
Jesus healed a lot of Jews. Where do you get that signs were 'primarily meant for judgment against the Jews'? Saul of Tarsus declared Elymas blind, and Sergius Paulus believed after he saw that. How was the healing of the lame man in Lystra meant as judgment against the Jews? Paul and Barnabas reported the miracles they did among the Gentiles. From one perspective, Gentiles being reconciled in this age is to provoke the Jews to jealousy. Since God gifting Gentile Christians (not exclusively Gentile Christians of course) with certain gifts is part of His overall workings with us, that may have a part to play in provoking the Jews to jealousy, but the way you worded it seems to be your opinion, not anything that can reasonably derived from scripture.
Jesus healed a lot of Jews. Where do you get that signs were 'primarily meant for judgment against the Jews'? Saul of Tarsus declared Elymas blind, and Sergius Paulus believed after he saw that. How was the healing of the lame man in Lystra meant as judgment against the Jews? Paul and Barnabas reported the miracles they did among the Gentiles. From one perspective, Gentiles being reconciled in this age is to provoke the Jews to jealousy. Since God gifting Gentile Christians (not exclusively Gentile Christians of course) with certain gifts is part of His overall workings with us, that may have a part to play in provoking the Jews to jealousy, but the way you worded it seems to be your opinion, not anything that can reasonably derived from scripture.