Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[Lookupnotback]

What I find most interesting is that there are people who insist that the gospel of the kingdom is the same as the gospel of the grace of God, that there is always only ONE gospel.

Yet, they also believe that the signs and wonders of the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 10:7-8), are no longer for today.

If the gospel of the kingdom has never gone away, why are the signs gone?

So the questions you need to sift through for the answer you seek would start with something like, if they are still going on today? What were they exactly then, back then?
Tongues were actual languages of men and not senseless babble as Paul warns against that the pagans use. One should be present to translate the message given in another language of man.
Prophesy, was not telling of the future as the word only recently in man’s time here took on that meaning but originally it’s meaning was to teach the word.
Healings were true supernatural events done by the apostles who there are no more of since the time of the twelve and not 3rd hand reportings of someone in a foreign land having a goitre healed or vague healings of lower back pain.
Slain by the spirit/emotional tripping’s, once we are born again? The Holy Spirit comes to live within us and is always there, we don’t have to pray to ask him to come to be with us as bis is abiding in us always. Now sin can neuter his ability to do work through us but once saved/converted? He is always with us. The emotional trip’n is people who likely are not saved who need short term emotional highs to make them “feel” alive but they are always short lived and so just like any fake drugs empty effects of euphoria? You gotta go looking for more. Unlike the Holy Spirit’s indwelling which is always there to five us peace amongst the turmoils of life.

 

[Guojing]

So the questions you need to sift through for the answer you seek would start with something like, if they are still going on today? What were they exactly then, back then?
Tongues were actual languages of men and not senseless babble as Paul warns against that the pagans use. One should be present to translate the message given in another language of man.
Prophesy, was not telling of the future as the word only recently in man’s time here took on that meaning but originally it’s meaning was to teach the word.
Healings were true supernatural events done by the apostles who there are no more of since the time of the twelve and not 3rd hand reportings of someone in a foreign land having a goitre healed or vague healings of lower back pain.
Slain by the spirit/emotional tripping’s, once we are born again? The Holy Spirit comes to live within us and is always there, we don’t have to pray to ask him to come to be with us as bis is abiding in us always. Now sin can neuter his ability to do work through us but once saved/converted? He is always with us. The emotional trip’n is people who likely are not saved who need short term emotional highs to make them “feel” alive but they are always short lived and so just like any fake drugs empty effects of euphoria? You gotta go looking for more. Unlike the Holy Spirit’s indwelling which is always there to five us peace amongst the turmoils of life.

I think this is where everyone, if they are objective, would recognized that those signs and wonders are not here today.

The most common reason continualists use to reconcile this observation is that the level of faith has fallen, using isolated verses like (Mark 6:5-6).

Is that your view too?

 

[Lookupnotback]

I think this is where everyone, if they are objective, would recognized that those signs and wonders are not here today.

The most common reason continualists use to reconcile this observation is that the level of faith has fallen, using isolated verses like (Mark 6:5-6).

Is that your view too?

I am going to be way bolder than that, having spent a number of years amongst them? The majority of charismatics are not saved but chasing after works type salvation and if health, wealth & happiness is what i get? Where do i sign? Next level even? Most to be caught up in such emotional trip’n and total lack of understanding the bible in scope but just cherry pick to justify the movement? Do so because of a simple mind/nature or lack of confidence and so seek to be placed above the crowd from out of their mediocre lives and lack if self esteem through these seemingly supernatural events that now place them into the realm of gods. This puts you above the pack to have a 2nd blessing and “special” more so than the guy next to you.....demonic seductions.

 

[Guojing]

I am going to be way bolder than that, having spent a number of years amongst them? The majority of charismatics are not saved but chasing after works type salvation and if health, wealth & happiness is what i get? Where do i sign? Next level even? Most to be caught up in such emotional trip’n and total lack of understanding the bible in scope but just cherry pick to justify the movement? Do so because of a simple mind/nature or lack of confidence and so seek to be placed above the crowd from out of their mediocre lives and lack if self esteem through these seemingly supernatural events that now place them into the realm of gods. This puts you above the pack to have a 2nd blessing and “special” more so than the guy next to you.....demonic seductions.

I think the fact that you described

"Tongues were actual languages of men and not senseless babble as Paul warns against that the pagans use."

tells me that you are indeed leaning towards cessationalism.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Cessationism and continuationism are but doctrinal possibilities drawn from different viewpoints on scripture. Both have their biblical strengths and weaknesses. I would like to hear from both sides as to why they accept one viewpoint over the other.

Of course it makes a difference. Instead of focusing on tongues and healing the focus becomes all of the spiritual gifts, some of which ceased and other which have continued. Only a small number of gifts have ceased. The majority have continued.

 

[Lookupnotback]

I think the fact that you described



tells me that you are indeed leaning towards cessationalism.

...hummmm, how would you have come to that end?-) hahaha

 

[Scribe]

7Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

Has Jesus been revealed in His second coming yet? No? Then the spiritual gifts are with me.

 

[Lookupnotback]

7Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

Has Jesus been revealed in His second coming yet? No? Then the spiritual gifts are with me.

So that - God has so abundantly endowed you with his favors.
Ye come behind - ὑστερεῖσθαι hustereisthaiYou are not missing, or deficient. The word is usually applied to destitution, want, or poverty; and the declaration here is synonymous with what he had said, 1 Corinthians 1:5 (NAS)
5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,
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" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer;">1 Corinthians 1:5, that they abounded in everything.

In no gift - In no favor, or gracious endowment. The word used here χάρισμα charismadoes not refer necessarily to extraordinary and miraculous endowments, but includes also all the kindnesses of God toward them in producing peace of mind, constancy, humility, etc. And the apostle meant evidently to say that they possessed, in rich abundance, all those endowments which were bestowed on Christians.
Waiting for - Expecting, or looking for this coming with glad and anxious desire. This was, certainly, one of the endowments to which he referred, to wit, that they had grace given them earnestly to desire, and to wait for the second appearing of the Lord Jesus. An earnest wish to see him, and a confident expectation and firm belief that he will return, is an evidence of a high state of piety. It demands strong faith, and it will do much to elevate the feelings above the world, and to keep the mind in a state of peace.
The coming … - Greek The revelation - τὴν ἀποκάλυψιν tēn apokalupsin- the manifestation of the Son of God. That is, waiting for his return to judge the world, and for his approbation of his people on that Day. The earnest expectation of the Lord Jesus became one of the marks of early Christian piety. This return was promised by the Saviour to his anxious disciples, when he was about to leave them; John 14:3 (NAS)
3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
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" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer;">John 14:3. The promise was renewed when he ascended to heaven; Acts 1:11 (NAS)
11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
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" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer;">Acts 1:11. It became the settled hope and expectation of Christians that he would return; Titus 2:13 (NAS)
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
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" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer;">Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 3:12 (NAS)
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
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" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer;">2 Peter 3:12; Hebrews 9:28 (NAS)
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
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" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer;">Hebrews 9:28. And with the earnest prayer that be would quickly come, John closes the volume of inspiration; Revelation 22:20-21 (NAS)

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" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer;">Revelation 22:20-21.

 

[Guojing]

...hummmm, how would you have come to that end?-) hahaha

Continualists usually believe that tongues are a heavenly language, instead of an actual human language.

There is good reason for that, since tongues as a heavenly language is the easiest to fake it, if you are adopting a cessationalist perspective of course.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I'm not a cessationist.
I do however think that the Pentecostal movement has it wrong.

 

[Guojing]

I'm not a cessationist.
I do however think that the Pentecostal movement has it wrong.

Few people are pure (100%) continualists, so I take that as saying you are a cessationist but not a 100% one.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I do however think that the Pentecostal movement has it wrong.

How can it not be wrong, when tongues are made "the evidence" that you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit? It is a total distortion of Gospel truth and the proof is found right in the book of Acts. Peter told all those Jews in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost that they must repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and then they would receive the gift (baptism) of the Holy Ghost. 3,000 were baptized by immersion in water, but the Bible does not say that 3,000 also spoke in tongues.

 

[throughfaith]

Are not the signs connected with going into all the world and preaching the Gospel to every creature? All it needs is 5th Grade comprehension skills to work that out. Making the passage read that the signs are just for Israel is reading into the passage something that just isn't there. The passage doesn't say, "And these signs shall follow Israelite believers." It clearly indicates believers in all the world, not just Israel.

And as we see the results of what Jesus said here the evidence is to fact they only went to Jews ,the miracles were given to Jews by that context , Jews always seek a sign, God has always dealt with Jews with signs. Its not until 10 years after Acts 2 does this programme change. So look at the fruit of Mark 16 and see what the result of Jesus words was .

 

[throughfaith]

How can it not be wrong, when tongues are made "the evidence" that you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit? It is a total distortion of Gospel truth and the proof is found right in the book of Acts. Peter told all those Jews in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost that they must repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and then they would receive the gift (baptism) of the Holy Ghost. 3,000 were baptized by immersion in water, but the Bible does not say that 3,000 also spoke in tongues.

I agree on the tongues part. But is that the order in which Peter gave ?
Heres the order.
38¶Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[throughfaith]

How can it not be wrong, when tongues are made "the evidence" that you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit? It is a total distortion of Gospel truth and the proof is found right in the book of Acts. Peter told all those Jews in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost that they must repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and then they would receive the gift (baptism) of the Holy Ghost. 3,000 were baptized by immersion in water, but the Bible does not say that 3,000 also spoke in tongues.

I agree on the tongues part. But is that the order in which Peter gave ?
Heres the order.
38¶Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

He doesn't say "repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and then they would receive the gift (baptism) of the Holy Ghost. " ?

 

[Nehemiah6]

He doesn't say "repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and then they would receive the gift (baptism) of the Holy Ghost. " ?

You still have not understood two things: (1) Scripture IMPLIES many things and (2) the gift of the Holy Ghost is no different than the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is poured out on the one who believes (see Titus 3:4-7).

 

[throughfaith]

You still have not understood two things: (1) Scripture IMPLIES many things and (2) the gift of the Holy Ghost is no different than the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is poured out on the one who believes (see Titus 3:4-7).

You really think that something as critical as ,how we are saved ,has to be inferred ?

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

How can it not be wrong, when tongues are made "the evidence" that you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit? It is a total distortion of Gospel truth and the proof is found right in the book of Acts. Peter told all those Jews in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost that they must repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and then they would receive the gift (baptism) of the Holy Ghost. 3,000 were baptized by immersion in water, but the Bible does not say that 3,000 also spoke in tongues.

There are a few things that are a stark difference. Where the bible says they spoke in tongues it says, " they spoke in tongues and prophecied". Speaking a language and telling the word of God, and it was upon the laying on of the hands of an apostle. If you notice that Philip never did this, he only baptised with water. So what's going on here? Also in the pastoral epistles, you see no directive to continue this practice, yet it is the central theme of The Pentecostal movement. Now I do believe that God can and does cause a man where ever necessary to be able to speak a language he does not know.
I also believe that prophecy is a matter of how it's defined, if you mean a special unique word from God that is extra biblical then no it's not happening. If you mean being able to expound upon the word of God applying to modern and unique situations, then yes, and yes it is a gift of the Holy Spirit to do so. I also believe that a man on a mission from God will have God's protection from such things as snake bites, and such because God's mission will not be thwarted by happen stance.
I also believe that if we follow the instructions given by Paul to James in the 5th chapter faithfully that the sick will indeed be saved as it is written.
I think pentecostalism is a very mislead borderline cult teaching some borderline heresies.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Few people are pure (100%) continualists, so I take that as saying you are a cessationist but not a 100% one.

What I think is that the thing that pentecostalism teaches is not the same thing. Tongues is a language, not repeated syllables over and over as seen in voodoo. Prophecy is not a special unique word from God, that healing the sick has to be in accordance with the instructions given to James. I think they have twisted the meanings of what those gifts are. That they have always been in operation, and we see it in Luther when he posted the 95 thesis, and Athenasius when he penned the Trinitarian creed, the council when they canonized the Bible. And when your pastor expounds upon the word each week.

 

[CS1]

What I think is that the thing that pentecostalism teaches is not the same thing. Tongues is a language, not repeated syllables over and over as seen in voodoo. Prophecy is not a special unique word from God, that healing the sick has to be in accordance with the instructions given to James. I think they have twisted the meanings of what those gifts are. That they have always been in operation, and we see it in Luther when he posted the 95 thesis, and Athenasius when he penned the Trinitarian creed, the council when they canonized the Bible. And when your pastor expounds upon the word each week.

Your stereo typing of Pentecostals is not correct. You must no more about Voodoo then the average Pentecostal. We stay away from Voodoo.

those who attack us have to go outside the word of God to use what is not in the bible to discredit what those who see in the word of God and believe God still does today.

and the healing of people doesn't have to be solely in accordance with James 5 as the Baptist suggests. Also, is man(council) who canonized the word of God, or was the word of God done because it is the word of God?