How to be Born Again

[brightfame52]

lol. this is beyond absurd. You're the one who still hasn't provided any verse that says election is to salvation, and I have provided many verses that clearly state that election is to service.

I'll prove it again. Just for you.

1 Cor 10-
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
29 so that no one may boast before him.

I've color coded these verse to make it easier to see my proof that election is to service.

Red words - God's choosing or electing.

Blue words - the purpose of God's choosing/electing.

Are you going to argue that 'shaming the strong', or 'nullifying the things that are' is salvation?

That would be quite absurd. This passage proves that God chooses people (foolish things, weak things, lowly things and things that are not) to shame and nullify.

Service, not salvation.

Now, go ahead and continue to prove your failure to grasp these very simple and clear points by denying the evidence that is presented here.

Or address this passage and explain clearly how I am wrong.

Nothing here about calling or chosen isn't about salvation. So you have not proved nothing.

In fact he's talking about salvation 1 Cor 1:18

What should be obvious is that Satan "deceives the whole world". He does that by various ways.

To answer HOW an unbeliever can believe what's "hidden" is simply to hear the gospel. They then have a choice; believe it or reject it.

It is clear from Cornelius and Heb 11:6 that unbelievers (the unsaved) CAN and DO seek God. It is those who DON'T who Satan hides the gospel from.

How can the lost believe that which is hidden from him ? Scripture clearly states the Gospel is hid to the Lost 2 Cor 4:3

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

What should be obvious is that Satan "deceives the whole world". He does that by various ways.

To answer HOW an unbeliever can believe what's "hidden" is simply to hear the gospel. They then have a choice; believe it or reject it.

It is clear from Cornelius and Heb 11:6 that unbelievers (the unsaved) CAN and DO seek God. It is those who DON'T who Satan hides the gospel from.

If a person is lost the Gospel is hid from them, read it 2 Cor 4:3

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

 

[awelight]

The following statement has been made by another:

"It is clear from Cornelius and Heb 11:6 that unbelievers (the unsaved) CAN and DO seek God. It is those who DON'T who Satan hides the gospel from."

This is not the teaching of Scripture!!!!

Paul wrote to the Romans:
Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

Again, he wrote:

Rom_3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The God that the unsaved seek after is a God that is more like themselves and not the God of Scripture.

Psa 50:17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.
Psa 50:18 When thou sawest a thief, thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.
Psa 50:19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit.
Psa 50:20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son.
Psa 50:21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

These are the same things we see in Rom. 1:21 and in 2Tim_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Most religionist today are NOT followers of Christ but are followers of some church doctrine or some preacher or both. They cannot interpret the Scriptures because they have not the Holy Spirit indwelling their lives. Hence, they need another to interpret and follow that one. However, many preachers today are not called of God and as such, cannot themselves interpret Scripture. You end up with the blind leading the blind. Exactly what our Lord said about the religionist of His day:

Mat_15:14 Let them alone: they are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both shall fall into a pit.

In Scripture, the unsaved followed Christ because they wanted to partake of the blessings and gifts. They had no real love for Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus said, that they gave Him lip service but their hearts were far from Him. When Jesus spoke the Truth in all it's power, especially about Salvation, the unbelievers could not take it:

Joh_6:66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

What was it Christ had said, that was called "a hard saying"?

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

Even Christ's chosen thought this was a hard saying but because they had been born anew and were part of God's Elect, they responded far differently than those that walked away:

Joh 6:67 Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, Would ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh 6:69 And we have believed and know that thou art the Holy One of God.
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve...and one of you is a devil?

Thus it is, with all manner of men and women. God chose the ones who are in opposition to Him and His people, (Pharaoh, bad Kings and corrupt Judges), He also chose the true believers and sustains them.

Satan is not the only one Scripture says hides the Truth from people.... sometimes it's God Himself:

Mat_13:35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.
Luk_10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father; for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight.
Col_1:26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,
1Co 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory:

When God hides something, it is revealed in time to His people and not the whole World.

 

[fredoheaven]

I love the fact that you call yourself "freeGrace2" and have no concept of what "Free Grace" is. You should have called yourself, "FreeWill2".

Free Grace is based on the concept of a completely unmerited Salvation. Free Will places man as the determinate factor. Therefore, if man is the determinate factor, it becomes a work, and thus, not unmerited GRACE.

Everyone who believes that man's will is the determinate factor denies God's Sovereignty and His Power. They are guilty of raising man's will above God's will. Thus, the creature becomes more powerful than the Creator. God and God alone is the determinate factor in all things, including Salvation. Nothing has changed with God since the days of Daniel:

Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:

Now see what God does, whether man likes it or not:

Dan 2:21 1.) And he changeth the times and the seasons: (He is in control of the seasons and weather - not "mother nature" nor man)

2.) he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: (Therefore He determines who will be President and who will not)

3). he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: (Without this, man is just a fool - ever studying and never able to come to the Truth)

4.) Dan 2:22 he revealeth the deep and secret things: 6.) he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

7.) Dan 2:23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast now made known unto me what we desired of thee: for thou hast made known unto us the king's matter. ( God made known to His chosen four - not to any others - it is now written for His people).

Man being DEAD in trespass and sins, spiritually speaking - (Spiritually.... not physically - man did not die on the spot but he did loose his communion with God.) - must be given spiritual life (the New Birth) before he/she can do anything to please God. In the New Birth, the believer is drawn in the direction of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

How can one who is yet DEAD put there belief on Christ and then be made alive. Obviously, by all common sense and logic, one must be ALIVE in order to believe. Therefore, you do not believe in Christ and then are born again. You are born again and then you believe in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, God is the one who moves first in the believers life salvation or being born aain.if youand the believer responds. This harmonizes with the points 1-7 in Daniel above and all of Scripture. It is also the teaching of John 3:3-10, a subject that Nicodemus was ignorant of. In John 3:7, "Being born again", in the Greek text, is in the "Passive Voice". This means, the one being acted upon by the Holy Spirit has no part to play in this New Birth, he/hhe is passive. The believer has no more part to play in the "NEW BIRTH" (Spiritual), than he/she had in their actual birth (Physical).

Better if you are able to provide passages of the bible to prove your point. Pardon me but I have seen your passages out of context relative to salvation. If you could bring a clear passage then it will a good discussion to start with. Your point must be back up with scripture. Well for John 3 we all need to continue reading until we reach the point Jesus talked about "whosoever believeth" vv. 15-18. God bless

 

[eternally-gratefull]

May I ask how this thread about being born again has turned into a hate thread (calvin vs non calvin)

it seems like CC has became a hot bead of anti calvinist rhetoric and pro calvinist rhetoric. Have not enough people been banned because of this nonsense?

I wish the mods would do more to put an end to this nonsense, they are taking over good threads. It’s for the birds

 

[awelight]

Better if you are able to provide passages of the bible to prove your point. Pardon me but I have seen your passages out of context relative to salvation. If you could bring a clear passage then it will a good discussion to start with. Your point must be back up with scripture. Well for John 3 we all need to continue reading until we reach the point Jesus talked about "whosoever believeth" vv. 15-18. God bless

Excuse me sir, but I believe there were many Scripture proof texts given to validate my points. The discussion of God's Sovereignty is vitally important to the correct understanding of Salvation. Matter of fact, the subject of Soteriology cannot be understood apart from the correct understanding of:

1.) God's Eternal Purpose.
2.) God's Attributes.
3.) God's Provision for Sin.
4.) The Fall of Man.
5.) Eternity and Time.

If you believe that John 15-18 is the answer to everything, then there can be no discussion. Continue on in your beliefs and I will try not to rock your boat. As for me, I love having my boat rocked.... it furthers personal study and conviction. In any case, may God be True and every man a liar.

 

[awelight]

May I ask how this thread about being born again has turned into a hate thread (calvin vs non calvin)

it seems like CC has became a hot bead of anti calvinist rhetoric and pro calvinist rhetoric. Have not enough people been banned because of this nonsense?

I wish the mods would do more to put an end to this nonsense, they are taking over good threads. It’s for the birds

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Way to much rhetoric expressed in these threads. Perhaps part of the answer would be for all in these discussions to quit calling them anti or pro-Calvinist. John Calvin came out of the Catholic church just like Martin Luther. He had some things right and some wrong, just like Martin Luther. Calvin does not hold a patent on these beliefs. Each part of an argument is either Scriptural or it is not, like any argument put forth.

This is why I prefer the terms Free Grace vs. Free Will.

You said in your post: " they are taking over good threads". Who are they?
You also said in your post: "May I ask how this thread about being born again has turned into...." The subject of being "born again" cannot be separated from ones belief in Soteriology, they are tightly woven together.

 

[brightfame52]

Better if you are able to provide passages of the bible to prove your point. Pardon me but I have seen your passages out of context relative to salvation. If you could bring a clear passage then it will a good discussion to start with. Your point must be back up with scripture. Well for John 3 we all need to continue reading until we reach the point Jesus talked about "whosoever believeth" vv. 15-18. God bless

You have to be kidding, the poster used plenty of scripture to make the point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I love the fact that you call yourself "freeGrace2" and have no concept of what "Free Grace" is.

Thanks for your unsolicited and ridiculously wrong opinion.

You should have called yourself, "FreeWill2".

Rather, maybe you should consider keeping your snarky and worthless opinions to yourself.

Wow. What a way to start a conversation. Congratulations.

[QUORE]Free Grace is based on the concept of a completely unmerited Salvation. Free Will places man as the determinate factor. Therefore, if man is the determinate factor, it becomes a work, and thus, not unmerited GRACE.[/QUOTE]
You are half right and half WRONG. It's that pesky opinion of yours. Yes, FG is completely unmerited salvation. Amen!

However, your opinion of free will is as worthless as your opening comment about what I have "no concept" of.

Free will is nothing more or less than opportunity to choose between options. It in no way has any "powers" as you continue to opine. And the opportunity to choose between options is for every human being.

Everyone who believes that man's will is the determinate factor denies God's Sovereignty and His Power.

Only an idiot would believe that freedom to choose between options makes any kind of determination.

They are guilty of raising man's will above God's will.

Those who believe the nonsense you think about free will are guilty of idiocy.

Thus, the creature becomes more powerful than the Creator. God and God alone is the determinate factor in all things, including Salvation. Nothing has changed with God since the days of Daniel:

Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:

Now see what God does, whether man likes it or not:

Dan 2:21 1.) And he changeth the times and the seasons: (He is in control of the seasons and weather - not "mother nature" nor man)

2.) he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: (Therefore He determines who will be President and who will not)

3). he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: (Without this, man is just a fool - ever studying and never able to come to the Truth)

4.) Dan 2:22 he revealeth the deep and secret things: 6.) he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

7.) Dan 2:23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast now made known unto me what we desired of thee: for thou hast made known unto us the king's matter. ( God made known to His chosen four - not to any others - it is now written for His people).

The good news here is that your notions about free will are totally out of line with reality.

If you chose the color of your sox this morning, that is free will. When a person considers creation, that is visible to everyone (Romans 1:19-21
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
... that person is faced with a choice (free will) of options. To either "glorify Him as God" or not, and to "give thanks to Him", or not.

That is free will. Nothing more or less.

Man being DEAD in trespass and sins, spiritually speaking - (Spiritually.... not physically - man did not die on the spot but he did loose his communion with God.) - must be given spiritual life (the New Birth) before he/she can do anything to please God.

I challenge you to prove your opinion here with Scripture that teaches in clear and plain words that man must be regenerated before he can believe the gospel.

In the New Birth, the believer is drawn in the direction of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Again, please provide a clearly stated verse that supports your opinion.

How can one who is yet DEAD put there belief on Christ and then be made alive.

Because spiritual death doesn't mean loss of function as so many errant calvinists opine.

Obviously, by all common sense and logic, one must be ALIVE in order to believe.

Once again, you are making the error that spiritual death means loss of function. Yet you cannot find any Scripture that states your opinions.

QUOTE] Therefore, you do not believe in Christ and then are born again. You are born again and then you believe in Christ Jesus.[/QUOTE]
Actually, you have NO verses that teach this.

In fact, the opposite is true.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

The red words at the beginning and end of this verse mean the same thing. iow, they are equated. To be "made alive" or regenerated is to be "saved". iow, to have one, you have to have the other.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

First, note that the red words are the exact same as found in v.5. The blue words tell us what MUST come first before salvation.

The word "through" clearly implies presence. Kinda like taking a boat THROUGH WATER. You can't take a boat through water unless there is water.

I hope this hasn't been too difficult to understand.

The believer has no more part to play in the "NEW BIRTH" (Spiritual), than he/she had in their actual birth (Physical).

Of course not. No one argues otherwise.

It is God who gives new birth to those who believe. As Eph 2:5 and 8 show, salvation and regeneration are preceded by faith.

Man believes the gospel, God saves and regenerates the believer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nothing here about calling or chosen isn't about salvation. So you have not proved nothing.

Your double negative comment means I HAVE proves something. If you are confused, ask any English teacher for clarification.

In fact he's talking about salvation 1 Cor 1:18

" For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

The vese simply notes that God is the power in man's salvation.

And I color coded the verses in 1 Cor 1 that prove that God chose believers for service.

How can the lost believe that which is hidden from him ?

I already explained it to you. When the gospel is presented, it is no longer hidden. The gospel is hidden when a false gospel is presented, or Satan distracts unbelievers with shiny objects so they aren't looking for the gospel.

Scripture clearly states the Gospel is hid to the Lost 2 Cor 4:3

Please read all of Acts 10 and explain to me HOW Cornelius regularly prayed to God and gave alms to the poor.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Paul went to the lost. He clarified the gospel.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The following statement has been made by another:

"It is clear from Cornelius and Heb 11:6 that unbelievers (the unsaved) CAN and DO seek God. It is those who DON'T who Satan hides the gospel from."

This is not the teaching of Scripture!!!!

Rather, maybe you just don't understand either Cornelius' story or Heb 11:6. In both examples, it is clear that unbelievers seek God.

Paul wrote to the Romans:
Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

Explain Cornelius.

Again, he wrote:

Rom_3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Are you not aware of the fact that Paul directly quoted Psa 14:1-3? And who was the subject in those verses? Fool atheists. Of course they don't seek God because they don't believe God exists.

The God that the unsaved seek after is a God that is more like themselves and not the God of Scripture.

This is ignorance of Acts 10 and Cornelius. I suggest you at least read the whole chapter before making such embarrassing comments again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Way to much rhetoric expressed in these threads. Perhaps part of the answer would be for all in these discussions to quit calling them anti or pro-Calvinist. John Calvin came out of the Catholic church just like Martin Luther. He had some things right and some wrong, just like Martin Luther. Calvin does not hold a patent on these beliefs. Each part of an argument is either Scriptural or it is not, like any argument put forth.

This is why I prefer the terms Free Grace vs. Free Will.

i prefers whoever believes....

You said in your post: " they are taking over good threads". Who are they?
You also said in your post: "May I ask how this thread about being born again has turned into...." The subject of being "born again" cannot be separated from ones belief in Soteriology, they are tightly woven together.

who is arguing for and against calvinism is this thread, that would be a good place to start,

 

[brightfame52]

awelight

I love the fact that you call yourself "freeGrace2" and have no concept of what "Free Grace" is. You should have called yourself, "FreeWill2".

Now thats funny !

 

[brightfame52]

Your double negative comment means I HAVE proves something. If you are confused, ask any English teacher for clarification.


" For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

The vese simply notes that God is the power in man's salvation.

And I color coded the verses in 1 Cor 1 that prove that God chose believers for service.


I already explained it to you. When the gospel is presented, it is no longer hidden. The gospel is hidden when a false gospel is presented, or Satan distracts unbelievers with shiny objects so they aren't looking for the gospel.


Please read all of Acts 10 and explain to me HOW Cornelius regularly prayed to God and gave alms to the poor.


Paul went to the lost. He clarified the gospel.

More vain jangling and proof of nothing.

 

[brightfame52]

Thanks for your unsolicited and ridiculously wrong opinion.


Rather, maybe you should consider keeping your snarky and worthless opinions to yourself.

Wow. What a way to start a conversation. Congratulations.

[QUORE]Free Grace is based on the concept of a completely unmerited Salvation. Free Will places man as the determinate factor. Therefore, if man is the determinate factor, it becomes a work, and thus, not unmerited GRACE.

You are half right and half WRONG. It's that pesky opinion of yours. Yes, FG is completely unmerited salvation. Amen!

However, your opinion of free will is as worthless as your opening comment about what I have "no concept" of.

Free will is nothing more or less than opportunity to choose between options. It in no way has any "powers" as you continue to opine. And the opportunity to choose between options is for every human being.


Only an idiot would believe that freedom to choose between options makes any kind of determination.


Those who believe the nonsense you think about free will are guilty of idiocy.


The good news here is that your notions about free will are totally out of line with reality.

If you chose the color of your sox this morning, that is free will. When a person considers creation, that is visible to everyone (Romans 1:19-21
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
... that person is faced with a choice (free will) of options. To either "glorify Him as God" or not, and to "give thanks to Him", or not.

That is free will. Nothing more or less.


I challenge you to prove your opinion here with Scripture that teaches in clear and plain words that man must be regenerated before he can believe the gospel.


Again, please provide a clearly stated verse that supports your opinion.


Because spiritual death doesn't mean loss of function as so many errant calvinists opine.


Once again, you are making the error that spiritual death means loss of function. Yet you cannot find any Scripture that states your opinions.

QUOTE] Therefore, you do not believe in Christ and then are born again. You are born again and then you believe in Christ Jesus.[/QUOTE]
Actually, you have NO verses that teach this.

In fact, the opposite is true.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

The red words at the beginning and end of this verse mean the same thing. iow, they are equated. To be "made alive" or regenerated is to be "saved". iow, to have one, you have to have the other.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

First, note that the red words are the exact same as found in v.5. The blue words tell us what MUST come first before salvation.

The word "through" clearly implies presence. Kinda like taking a boat THROUGH WATER. You can't take a boat through water unless there is water.

I hope this hasn't been too difficult to understand.


Of course not. No one argues otherwise.

It is God who gives new birth to those who believe. As Eph 2:5 and 8 show, salvation and regeneration are preceded by faith.

Man believes the gospel, God saves and regenerates the believer.[/QUOTE]

You haven't provided a verse that clearly states your opinion' You know what's that is called dont you ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

More vain jangling and proof of nothing.

Said the poster who has proved nothing. At least you've got a lot of experience in that area.

Full of empty quips and snarky stuff. No meat from the Word.

 

[brightfame52]

Said the poster who has proved nothing. At least you've got a lot of experience in that area.

Full of empty quips and snarky stuff. No meat from the Word.

You havent proved anything. You make wild assertions without scripture, then challenge folk to prove you wrong. Duh you proved yourself wrong by not proving yourself right. You are self defeated !

 

[FreeGrace2]

You haven't provided a verse that clearly states your opinion' You know what's that is called dont you ?

I suggest you actually look at your post #974. It shows that you don't know how to edit a post. Most people reading it would think all that I posted previously came from you.

So, what is it called when a poster can't post correctly?

ps: since you disagree with my explanation of the meaning of free will, why don't you give yours.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You havent proved anything.

Oh, here we go again. You just love saying that, huh. Not that it matters or is correct. You're the one who has NEVER provided any verse that supports what you claim.

You make wild assertions without scripture, then challenge folk to prove you wrong.

Then why haven't you yet? If my posts are only 'wild assertions', it should be EASY to refute. But all you do is throw out silly and snarky quips.

Duh you proved yourself wrong by not proving yourself right. You are self defeated !

No, you are self deceived. None of your calvinist claims have been proven from Scripture. And I don't mind what you believe. I've given the truth. It's up to the eyes and ears to see and hear it.

 

[Magenta]

Free will is nothing more or less than opportunity to choose between options.

I prefer the term self will

Partially (and largely) because man's will is constrained by many factors.

So many, in fact, that it can hardly be called free.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I prefer the term self will

Partially because man's will is constrained by many factors.

OK. And self will is free to make choices. Which is the point.

The problem is when calvinists make up their own ideas about free will, even describing it as having power. Nonsense.