Our responses to claims of Holy Spirit Bapitisms.

[notuptome]

Hmmm...How much validity should be given to people who assume they are the judge of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Seems people never get tired of joining this forum to bash what they assume is no longer scripturally accurate

It is called contending for the faith once and forever delivered to the saints.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Live4Him]

What is your point?
Do you live your life without judging? I think not.

The question is important and needs to be addressed. Many are led into the ditch of pentecostalism because they refuse to address this fundamental issue.

Pentecostalism isn't necessarily a ditch, depending upon how one defines it.

For example, God ordained 4 Springtime feasts:

1. Passover
2. Unleavened Bread
3. Firstfruits
4. Pentecost

Do the feasts of Passover and Unleavened Bread have relevance in the lives of all true believers?

Yes, they do.

For example, Paul said:

I Corinthians chapter 5

[6] Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
[7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
[8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

As professing Christians, we all need to partake of Christ as our Passover lamb AND to remove all leaven from our lives or that which might cause us to "rise up" or be "puffed up" in rebellion against God.

As far as the Feast of Firstfruits is concerned, Paul said:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[19] If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

As professing Christians, we all need to believe in "Christ the firstfruits", or "the firstfruits of them that slept", or the first to be risen from the dead unto eternal life in order to be saved.

Seeing how the feasts of Passover, Unleavened Bread, and Firstfruits all have true applications in the lives of every believer, why would we think that the Feast of Pentecost doesn't similarly affect each and every one of us?

I mean, if we skip ahead to the first Fall time feast, the Feast of Trumpets, doesn't that have a real application to every Christian's life?

It's no coincidence that Christ's second coming is heralded by a trumpet blast everywhere in scripture because he will be returning upon the Feast of Trumpets even as he fulfilled the other feasts on their literal calendar days.

Again, why would we believe that the other feasts all apply to us and not the Feast of Pentecost?

To me, that's insane.

Anyhow, having said that, I do NOT believe that most of what transpires in so-called "Pentecostal" churches today is of God. In fact, based upon my own observations, I'd be forced to conclude that in many cases (at least) they have another Jesus, another gospel, AND ANOTHER SPIRIT.

Even so, I won't personally throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater because of their error.

 

[CS1]

"Pentecostals don't believe in "Multiple baptisms".

Pentecostals most certainly do believe in multiple baptisms. Anyone today who accepts a baptism other than water baptism by nature believes in "multiple baptisms". (Eph. 4:5)

No, they do not. The word Baptism, baptized have more than one meaning depending on the context where is ti used. One speaks of water submerging the other can speak of enclothed with. the only context of them is Neither is essential for salvation.

 

[CS1]

I think he was speaking of the bogus nature of these groups when he wrote:

"The multiple baptisms of the Pentecostal charismatic types are not valid because they are not scriptural."

very much opinionated and not founded in truth. Again pentecostal don't believe in multiple baptisms. You may know those who call themselves Pentecostals who have said that BUT it is not part of the doctrine. You really should not lambast those who you clearly are unlearned in. Nowhere in the Four Square, AOG, COGIC or COG do they have multiple baptisms taught in the doctrine. Many fillings yes, many move of the Holy Spirit One Baptism, one faith. The Empowering of the Holy Spirit is a distinct work of the Holy Spirit that happens after salvation and can be done at that time or later. When Jesus said in Acts 1:8 You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you will be my witnesses. The disciples were already saved prior to Acts 2 when the empowerment fall upon them.

 

[Live4Him]

very much opinionated and not founded in truth. Again pentecostal don't believe in multiple baptisms. You may know those who call themselves Pentecostals who have said that BUT it is not part of the doctrine. You really should not lambast those who you clearly are unlearned in. Nowhere in the Four Square, AOG, COGIC or COG do they have multiple baptisms taught in the doctrine. Many fillings yes, many move of the Holy Spirit One Baptism, one faith. The Empowering of the Holy Spirit is a distinct work of the Holy Spirit that happens after salvation and can be done at that time or later. When Jesus said in Acts 1:8 You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you will be my witnesses. The disciples were already saved prior to Acts 2 when the empowerment fall upon them.

No offense, but it seems that you contradicted yourself in your response.

I mean, personally, I totally agree with you when you say that the empowerment of the Holy Spirit came upon them AFTER they were already saved, but wouldn't that then be a separate and distinct baptism?

Acts chapter 1

[4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[6] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The disciples had already been water baptized, and the Holy Ghost baptism was totally distinct from that baptism.

The foundational principles of the doctrine of Christ include "baptisms", PLURAL, so I don't know what all of the fuss on this thread is about.

We read:

Hebrews chapter 6

[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Are not these "baptisms" water baptism and a Holy Ghost baptism?

If so, then why is everyone claiming that there aren't "multiple baptisms" taught in scripture?

 

[CS1]

No offense, but it seems that you contradicted yourself in your response.

I mean, personally, I totally agree with you when you say that the empowerment of the Holy Spirit came upon them AFTER they were already saved, but wouldn't that then be a separate and distinct baptism?

Acts chapter 1

[4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[6] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The disciples had already been water baptized, and the Holy Ghost baptism was totally distinct from that baptism.

The foundational principles of the doctrine of Christ include "baptisms", PLURAL, so I don't know what all of the fuss on this thread is about.

We read:

Hebrews chapter 6

[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Are not these "baptisms" water baptism and a Holy Ghost baptism?

If so, then why is everyone claiming that there aren't "multiple baptisms" taught in scripture?

Actually, I did not contradict myself.

If you used the word "Baptism" it would appear so, but from the Greek translation, they are not the same.

That is the confusion with the word. it must be kept in context to how it is used. In there Gospel of John where we read in Chapter one, you will see the word application is not the same as submerged but enclothed with.

The issue is when one makes Baptized water/ Spirit a methodology for salvation.

Does water baptism save? No. Does the empowerment of the Holy Spirit save you? no. Is water Baptism the same as Sprit empowerment the same because the word Baptism is used? no, They are a water Baptism and there is Holy Spirit empowerment.

I don't think there is a fuss until one says or teaches you must be baptized to be saved or baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved.

 

[Live4Him]

Actually, I did not contradict myself.

If you used the word "Baptism" it would appear so, but from the Greek translation, they are not the same.

That is the confusion with the word. it must be kept in context to how it is used. In there Gospel of John where we read in Chapter one, you will see the word application is not the same as submerged but enclothed with.

The issue is when one makes Baptized water/ Spirit a methodology for salvation.

Does water baptism save? No. Does the empowerment of the Holy Spirit save you? no. Is water Baptism the same as Sprit empowerment the same because the word Baptism is used? no, They are a water Baptism and there is Holy Spirit empowerment.

I don't think there is a fuss until one says or teaches you must be baptized to be saved or baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved.

???

What verse in John chapter 1 are you referring to?

I ask because here the words used for water baptism and Holy Ghost baptism are one and the same in the underlying Greek:

Jhn 1:33

And I G2504 knew G1492 him G846 not: G3756 but G235 he that sent G3992 me G3165 to baptize G907 with G1722 water, G5204 the same G1565 said G2036 unto me, G3427 Upon G1909 whom G3739 G302 thou shalt see G1492 the Spirit G4151 descending, G2597 and G2532 remaining G3306 on G1909 him, G846 the same G3778 is G2076 he which baptizeth G907 with G1722 the Holy G40 Ghost. G4151

In both cases, the underlying Greek word is "baptizō", so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

 

[ronair]

No, they do not. The word Baptism, baptized have more than one meaning depending on the context where is ti used. One speaks of water submerging the other can speak of enclothed with. the only context of them is Neither is essential for salvation.

You are simply fighting grammer or possibly math. Regardless of the type or purpose of the baptism, if you believe in more than one then you believe in "mutliple baptism", that is what mutiple means. You are clouding the issue by bringing up the need for such baptisms.

Either you believe in one or two or more. Some groups practice none.

Again, you are quite mistaken on pentecostal beliefs. This is from the Assembly of God's official website:

Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths

1. There are two ordinances. Believer's baptism by immersion is a declaration to the world that the believer has died and been raised together with Christ, becoming a new creation. The Lord's Supper is a symbol expressing the believer's sharing in the divine nature of Christ, a memorial of Christ's suffering and death, and a prophecy of Christ's second coming.
2. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate and subsequent experience following conversion. Spirit baptism brings empowerment to live an overcoming Christian life and to be an effective witness

As you can see there are two baptisms mentioned here. Multiple baptisms are a central core of all pentacostal beliefs. I am well versed on this subject but if you can show some evidence to back up your claim I am very interested in seeing it.

 

[SophieT]

It is called contending for the faith once and forever delivered to the saints.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Don't you mean contending for your own personal beliefs since you do not believe quite as the Bible record indicates?

Would not expect less from you

 

[SophieT]

What is your point?
Do you live your life without judging? I think not.

The question is important and needs to be addressed. Many are led into the ditch of pentecostalism because they refuse to address this fundamental issue.

Don't patronize me. The real question is what is YOUR point? The question is addressed over and over and over

News flash: nothing new in your thread. just the typical gifts basher type op

I'm not Pentecostal either so no worries

 

[Live4Him]

You are simply fighting grammer or possibly math. Regardless of the type or purpose of the baptism, if you believe in more than one then you believe in "mutliple baptism", that is what mutiple means. You are clouding the issue by bringing up the need for such baptisms.

Either you believe in one or two or more. Some groups practice none.

Again, you are quite mistaken on pentecostal beliefs. This is from the Assembly of God's official website:

Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths

1. There are two ordinances. Believer's baptism by immersion is a declaration to the world that the believer has died and been raised together with Christ, becoming a new creation. The Lord's Supper is a symbol expressing the believer's sharing in the divine nature of Christ, a memorial of Christ's suffering and death, and a prophecy of Christ's second coming.
2. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate and subsequent experience following conversion. Spirit baptism brings empowerment to live an overcoming Christian life and to be an effective witness

As you can see there are two baptisms mentioned here. Multiple baptisms are a central core of all pentacostal beliefs. I am well versed on this subject but if you can show some evidence to back up your claim I am very interested in seeing it.

...and, Biblically speaking, there are two distinct baptisms, even as I've already documented, so what's your point?

 

[ronair]

...and, Biblically speaking, there are two distinct baptisms, even as I've already documented, so what's your point?

My point is anything over one baptism is multiple baptisms. Don't you agree?

CS1 states that pentacostals believe in one baptism yet push water baptism and a separate Holy Spirit Baptism. He can not have it both ways. I don't think he is well versed in current pentacostalism.

 

[ronair]

Don't patronize me. The real question is what is YOUR point? The question is addressed over and over and over

News flash: nothing new in your thread. just the typical gifts basher type op

I'm not Pentecostal either so no worries

There is nothing in my comment that was patronizing.

My point is very clear. Off subject comments are not the same as addressing the issue.

I don't know you but if you believe in modern day supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit then yes, you are by definition pentecostal.

 

[CS1]

???

What verse in John chapter 1 are you referring to?

I ask because here the words used for water baptism and Holy Ghost baptism are one and the same in the underlying Greek:

Jhn 1:33

And I G2504 knew G1492 him G846 not: G3756 but G235 he that sent G3992 me G3165 to baptize G907 with G1722 water, G5204 the same G1565 said G2036 unto me, G3427 Upon G1909 whom G3739 G302 thou shalt see G1492 the Spirit G4151 descending, G2597 and G2532 remaining G3306 on G1909 him, G846 the same G3778 is G2076 he which baptizeth G907 with G1722 the Holy G40 Ghost. G4151

In both cases, the underlying Greek word is "baptizō", so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

???

What verse in John chapter 1 are you referring to?

I ask because here the words used for water baptism and Holy Ghost baptism are one and the same in the underlying Greek:

Jhn 1:33

And I G2504 knew G1492 him G846 not: G3756 but G235 he that sent G3992 me G3165 to baptize G907 with G1722 water, G5204 the same G1565 said G2036 unto me, G3427 Upon G1909 whom G3739 G302 thou shalt see G1492 the Spirit G4151 descending, G2597 and G2532 remaining G3306 on G1909 him, G846 the same G3778 is G2076 he which baptizeth G907 with G1722 the Holy G40 Ghost. G4151

In both cases, the underlying Greek word is "baptizō", so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

the word is the same the action is not. John baptized with water " but there is one coming who will not use water HE will Baptize you with the Holy Ghost. there is a distinction between the two yet it is not the only time in the word of God this is said without calling it baptism. Jesus said in Acts 1:8

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus did not say here you will be baptized with the Holy Ghost, did he? But This is that very same thing spoken in John chapter one. That was called a Baptism.

 

[CS1]

You are simply fighting grammer or possibly math. Regardless of the type or purpose of the baptism, if you believe in more than one then you believe in "mutliple baptism", that is what mutiple means. You are clouding the issue by bringing up the need for such baptisms.

Either you believe in one or two or more. Some groups practice none.

Again, you are quite mistaken on pentecostal beliefs. This is from the Assembly of God's official website:

Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths

1. There are two ordinances. Believer's baptism by immersion is a declaration to the world that the believer has died and been raised together with Christ, becoming a new creation. The Lord's Supper is a symbol expressing the believer's sharing in the divine nature of Christ, a memorial of Christ's suffering and death, and a prophecy of Christ's second coming.
2. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate and subsequent experience following conversion. Spirit baptism brings empowerment to live an overcoming Christian life and to be an effective witness

As you can see there are two baptisms mentioned here. Multiple baptisms are a central core of all pentacostal beliefs. I am well versed on this subject but if you can show some evidence to back up your claim I am very interested in seeing it.

again the word Baptism must be contextually kept. The word Baptized is a past tense word. Baptism and baptized are not the same thing. Just like love and love are not something. There is one baptism

Eph 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 

[CS1]

You are simply fighting grammer or possibly math. Regardless of the type or purpose of the baptism, if you believe in more than one then you believe in "mutliple baptism", that is what mutiple means. You are clouding the issue by bringing up the need for such baptisms.

Either you believe in one or two or more. Some groups practice none.

Again, you are quite mistaken on pentecostal beliefs. This is from the Assembly of God's official website:

Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths

1. There are two ordinances. Believer's baptism by immersion is a declaration to the world that the believer has died and been raised together with Christ, becoming a new creation. The Lord's Supper is a symbol expressing the believer's sharing in the divine nature of Christ, a memorial of Christ's suffering and death, and a prophecy of Christ's second coming.
2. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate and subsequent experience following conversion. Spirit baptism brings empowerment to live an overcoming Christian life and to be an effective witness

As you can see there are two baptisms mentioned here. Multiple baptisms are a central core of all pentacostal beliefs. I am well versed on this subject but if you can show some evidence to back up your claim I am very interested in seeing it.

you see two times the word is used and you assume they believe in two baptisms or multiple ones which is not the case. The context of the aog doctrine is not one of multiple as you suggest.

The empowering of the Holy Spirit in the believer is described as many things yet speaking of one event.

• Baptized in the Holy Spirit
• Filled with the Spirit
• Baptism of the Holy Spirit
• Empowered by the Holy Spirit

Are all speaking of the Gift of the Holy Spirit all said in scripture.

 

[Live4Him]

the word is the same the action is not. John baptized with water " but there is one coming who will not use water HE will Baptize you with the Holy Ghost. there is a distinction between the two yet it is not the only time in the word of God this is said without calling it baptism. Jesus said in Acts 1:8

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus did not say here you will be baptized with the Holy Ghost, did he? But This is that very same thing spoken in John chapter one. That was called a Baptism.

Actually, he did say here that you will be baptized with the Holy Ghost:

Acts chapter 1

[4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[6] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

[Live4Him]

Again, there are clearly two distinct baptisms spoken of in scripture, so I don't know what several of you are going on about.

We even see this distinction in the Old Testament.

As Paul said:

I Corinthians chapter 10

[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

In type, the Israelites who came out of Egypt "were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud (a type of Holy Ghost baptism) and in the sea (a type of water baptism), so what's the problem?

 

[Blade]

After reading all this the saying "they fear(make fun of) what they don't understand" seems to be true for some. The lumping together groups that you simply don't agree with. Its HIS Church, His body. He did say "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

Do we not read "have you received the holy Spirit since you believed? So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit. And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.....When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." Are we really going to think they were not already saved? Or they were saved and already HAD the holy Spirit? If they did .. no need to be baptized with the Holy Ghost. We can say the same thing about the 12/120. When Christ went up were not they already SAVED yet were baptized with the Holy Ghost, not just the 12 but 120!

No pride here just so so so humbled. No internet when I was young.. well even after that lol. So didn't hear what this man/woman or group said believed or didn't believe. I do read many many times on Christian sites about how IF we love Him we obey His word. First how do you love someone you don't know? Get to know Him..He is SO real. More real then your spouse best friend/family member. So itw as just some once a week bible study where I went with my mom. I was saved yet they asked if I wanted the holy Spirit. I said no at first and they never ever ever pushed it. Then one night they asked again I said yes. I really didn't know about the Holy Spirit at all. So they read a few verses about the holy Spirit and not adding anything about how or what they personally believe. Asked me again if I wanted it I said yes. They (well he) prayed a very short prayer stopped said "you got it" <---do you see the faith? See they didn't have do to anything. His word says how much more will He give the Holy Spirit to them that ask. So I get up and no one said a word. I go to sit down and BAM tongues just came out.

This is where I am .. I have no words. I am so bad with words. I am so thankful. I can't imagine life with out Him. Truth? The best times where I saw my Father move ...things man can't explain happened with blind faith. HAHA I just read it and believed.

So have you received the holy Spirit since you believed? <---the word says that. Answer Him not what any man says. You not what the internet or me says but you read Luke 11:13 and you alone make the choice.

Thank you Father for one body. Thank you for groups like Pent, Charsm, Baptist, Word of Faith etc and forgive me for ever getting in your way. Forgive me for every negative thing I have said about any group man or woman.

 

[CS1]

Actually, he did say here that you will be baptized with the Holy Ghost:

Acts chapter 1

[4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[6] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

yes, HE did, and He said to receive power to be a witness. and the Holy Ghost will come up you.

The disconnect with many is the word baptism and the strong association with that being water. We are submerged in water but we are enclothed with the Holy Spirit. Jesus give greater understanding in John chapter 14 of the Comforter paraklētos