50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Runningman said:
Also, study who the elect are in the new testament. That should help you see that it's the church, not unbelieving Jews.
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I do not believe that any of us "pre-tribbers" are saying that "the elect" being spoken of in Matthew 24 are "UNBELIEVING Jews". NO!

Rather, ones who will have come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs being spoken of there (FOLLOWING "our Rapture")... It is THEY who will be DOING the "inviting TO" the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (aka "the wedding FEAST")... in the form of Matt24:14 / 26:13 (and 22:9-14... which follows sequentially [/chronologically] from what was stated about "the 70ad events" in v.7 of that passage);
Matt24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:12-13 (all entirely earthly-located... to where Jesus will at that time be heading down to: "the earth," FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom).
 
Runningman said:
At the once and only return of Christ we agree.

Before the great tribulation, no.



God doesn't use the devil, anti-Christ, false prophet and great tribulation persecute the saints, all nations, tribes, and tongues. Think carefully what you're positing.

The seals, trumpets, and bowls aren't directed toward Christians.



The bowls of wrath don't begin until after the great tribulation. The rapture has already happened. The church was protected by God and the two witnesses.

Seems like the big thing keeping you from tying it all together is you think the rapture happens pre-tribulation.

Study Matthew 24 where the great tribulation is described and then Jesus saying He comes back after the great tribulation to gather His elect.

Also, study who the elect are in the new testament. That should help you see that it's the church, not unbelieving Jews.

I know we have gone over this several times together, but I figured it can't hurt to tell you again. Sometimes just seeing things more than once helps unlock understanding.
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Rev 14.

Debunks your position.
Big time
 
"Jesus comes only once"

Rev 14
Jesus is sitting in a cloud with a sickle.
Gathers ripe fruit.
THEN ( which would be later/ after that GATHERING) we see ANOTHER gathering of "overripe/rotten fruit" specifically for the winepress.

BUT BEFORE THOSE TWO GATHERINGS THEIR IS ANOTHER GATHERING. ....THE 144k.

So nothing of the " can only come once cause i say so" deal is true.
Completely false.

Still not convinced!

Here us a 4th coming!
Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

What a torpedo in the postribber ship!!!
A hole you can sail an aircraft carried through.

BUT NONE OF THOSE COMINGS IS THE RAPTURE. ( 5 comings)

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.!!!!

Mat 25, mat 24, 1 thes 4,acts1, and others.

Once the bride/ groom dimension is on the table.....the mystery begins to be revealed.

Omit the bride and we remain untaught.

Night and day difference.

One coming?????

At this late hour?????

At least look at the verses.
 
Absolutely said:
"Jesus comes only once"

Rev 14
Jesus is sitting in a cloud with a sickle.
Gathers ripe fruit.
THEN ( which would be later/ after that GATHERING) we see ANOTHER gathering of "overripe/rotten fruit" specifically for the winepress.

BUT BEFORE THOSE TWO GATHERINGS THEIR IS ANOTHER GATHERING. ....THE 144k.

So nothing of the " can only come once cause i say so" deal is true.
Completely false.

Still not convinced!

Here us a 4th coming!
Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

What a torpedo in the postribber ship!!!
A hole you can sail an aircraft carried through.

BUT NONE OF THOSE COMINGS IS THE RAPTURE. ( 5 comings)

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.!!!!

Mat 25, mat 24, 1 thes 4,acts1, and others.

Once the bride/ groom dimension is on the table.....the mystery begins to be revealed.

Omit the bride and we remain untaught.

Night and day difference.

One coming?????

At this late hour?????

At least look at the verses.
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Since we really do not know for certain how the 144 are gathered
And the ripe fruit are gathered by angels we may only have 3 "comings"
Lol
Rev 14 Is not in ANY WAY the rapture.

It is a Jewish gathering.

Firstfruit Jews
Main harvest following.( jews)
 
Runningman said:
Where in Revelation 14 does it say "Jesus comes twice" or it's demonstrated that He comes then leaves then comes back again?
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is that what you need?

You need an airplane to say "airplane" on it, or it is NOT an airplane?

If I say " there were 4 people arrived. John was at the wheel. They stopped for gas and checked under the hood" before they left town."

Nowhere is " car" mentioned.

You say " it CANNOT POSSIBLY BE A CAR"

"SHOW ME WHERE IT SAYS CAR"

Do you unpack or reframe?????
 
What do postribs do with jesus returning to both John and paul?

Remember, he can only come once....and not for the church.

Huh????????
 
Absolutely said:
is that what you need?

You need an airplane to say "airplane" on it, or it is NOT an airplane?

If I say " there were 4 people arrived. John was at the wheel. They stopped for gas and checked under the hood" before they left town."

Nowhere is " car" mentioned.

You say " it CANNOT POSSIBLY BE A CAR"

"SHOW ME WHERE IT SAYS CAR"

Do you unpack or reframe?????
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Yes. I require something to be either literally stated, literally described, possibly inferred, and in no circumstances can it contradict previously stated material.

So what you're saying is that Revelation 14 does not say Jesus comes back twice and Jesus coming back twice is not described in Revelation 14.

So why would I believe Jesus comes back twice? Why do you believe it?
 
Absolutely said:
What do postribs do with jesus returning to both John and paul?

Remember, he can only come once....and not for the church.

Huh????????
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Appearing to people in visions is not the second return of Christ coming on the clouds with His angels. Jesus is God. God can appear to people in visions.
 
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Runningman said:
Yes. I require something to be either literally stated, literally described, possibly inferred, and in no circumstances can it contradict previously stated material.

So what you're saying is that Revelation 14 does not say Jesus comes back twice and Jesus coming back twice is not described in Revelation 14.

So why would I believe Jesus comes back twice? Why do you believe it?
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You are welcome to interpret it to suit you.

Nobody is stopping you.

I have reported what is there

You SPECIFICALLY ignore it.

But that is your privlidge.
I am just a reporter.

Nowhere do you unpack the rapture verses.
Rev 14 also remains untouched.
It is neither the coming on horses or the rapture.

You are going to deflect every single thing presented.

Every item is deflected.

Every time.
 
"""Yes. I require something to be either literally stated, literally described, possibly inferred, and in no circumstances can it contradict previously stated material."""

Huh????
We have progressed to "possibly inferred"

Well that is refreshing.

Bless you friend.
I am glad
 
Absolutely said:
Both time it was Jesus big time.

Now you even need that to be something else

Wow
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So you think Paul's vision on the road to Damascus, when he fell to his knees and became blind, was the second coming of Christ with the angels and rapture?

You think John writing what he saw in visions was the second coming of Christ?
 
Absolutely said:
"""Yes. I require something to be either literally stated, literally described, possibly inferred, and in no circumstances can it contradict previously stated material."""

Huh????
We have progressed to "possibly inferred"

Well that is refreshing.

Bless you friend.
I am glad
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Inference can lead to all sorts of bad theology though. I read the Bible with the assumption it is correct and I need to understand what it says and not project ideas or make assumptions.

Can we agree it's fair to not assume much unless the Bible states it?
 
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Runningman said:
So you think Paul's vision on the road to Damascus, when he fell to his knees and became blind, was the second coming of Christ with the angels and rapture?

You think John writing what he saw in visions was the second coming of Christ?
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No not the second coming.
Definately not.

Do you?
 
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