Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[Aidan1]

again, a lack of KNOWLEDGE. the woman is a "HELPER", not the one who do it all, she helps her husband in what he's doing.

see, the world have corrupted the basic understanding of the role of a "WIFE" as in a marriage. she is to help her husband, cook, clean, and baby sit also. yes, it is the man's responsibilities to TAKE of his home, as well as his WIFE who ... "HELP" him in his, his, his, duties. for the HUSBANJD which is the "HEAD", simply means the "FIRST" to SERVE. and the wife is to "HELP" her husband.

scripture, Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."
HELP MEET: H5828 עֵזֶר `ezer (ay'-zer) n-m.
aid.
[from H5826]
KJV: help.
Root(s): H5826

an aid is to assist, not do it for them, but to assist, or help in whatever their husbands are doing. men are to wash, cook, and clean, also. and the wife just don't sit at home either ... helper... aide?, ....... assist. the only thing that a man cannot do is Give birth. ...physically ... speaking... and not spiritually, speaking. (smile).

PICJAJ, 101G.

Thats correct, but this means still not that it is biblical that the woman becomes pastor/leader of a church.

 

[Evmur]

Not In The Church

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Prophesying is to the church and is included in the gifts specifically given for the building up and edification of the same.

Paul greets many women in his letters who he addresses as co-labourers in the gospel, leaders of houses [which were the churches] to whom Paul commands the brethren to give all assistance to ... whatever they need.

There is very good reason to believe the pastoral epistles are not written by Paul.

The American church would collapse without their women. I defy anybody to deny the ministry of women like Corrie ten Boom or Amy Carmichael.

To silence the women is to silence more than half the church.

 

[Aidan1]

Prophesying is to the church and is included in the gifts specifically given for the building up and edification of the same.

Paul greets many women in his letters who he addresses as co-labourers in the gospel, leaders of houses [which were the churches] to whom Paul commands the brethren to give all assistance to ... whatever they need.

There is very good reason to believe the pastoral epistles are not written by Paul.

The American church would collapse without their women. I defy anybody to deny the ministry of women like Corrie ten Boom or Amy Carmichael.

To silence the women is to silence more than half the church.

What today is, is today. But thats no proof that it is biblical that a woman is pastor/leader/ eldest of a church.
There is no proof that it is biblical. Its only interpretation from those who defend this view and a try to justify it.

 

[Evmur]

What today is, is today. But thats no proof that it is biblical that a woman is pastor/leader/ eldest of a church.
There is no proof that it is biblical. Its only interpretation from those who defend this view and a try to justify it.

Let the brethren step up then, and let them be honourable and worthy. Unction for service is a tangible thing and if I see the unction of the Holy Spirit I count the one unctioned as neither male nor female ... neither did Paul.

 

[Major]

Col 4:15 15Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.
3Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: 4Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5Likewise greet the church that is in their house.
Priscilla taught Apollos from the scriptures in the way of Jesus more perfectly. That is a woman teaching a man the bible. She is often mentioned before her husband because she was the Called Spiritual Leader and the lead pastor of the church that met in their house.

The Acts 2 verses demonstrate that the women too were empowered with Holy Ghost power to carry out the great commission. That they prophesied is indicative of Holy Ghost empowered speaking gifts. Thus preaching, teaching, etc.

All the gifts come as a result of the divine call of God and the empowering of the Holy Spirit. This first Church on the day of Pentecost is a pattern that makes special mention of the women being included. He gave gifts unto men,... some pastors... this is a gift given by the Spirit for equipping the saints to maturity and service and these gifts are given by the Holy Spirit which is what is happening in Acts 2.

This is foundational. Women are specifically mentioned to make sure that everyone know that they are also called to go into all the nations and preach the Gospel to every creature. They are also included in the call to TEACH all nations whatsoever Jesus has commanded.

The clear will of God is to include the women. Only a pharisee would twist something Paul said to try to find and excuse to exclude women.

But people are bullied and intimidated by centuries of devilish ecclesiastical domination like the Catholics using scriptures to teach confession, and telling people they have the authority to grant forgiveness. They use a scripture that sounds convincing and intimidated the ignorant into believing it. People are using the "remain silent" as a club and making God out to be something that He is not and it is so obvious to me, but not to everyone. Many are scratching their heads and thinking... maybe God doesn't want women to speak in the church.... and they are intimidated by the centuries of bad hermeneutics.

That is a wonderful well thought out reply.......BUT it still is only YOUR personal OPINION!

None......NONE of what you have posted answers or speaks to the literal words of God as seen in 1 Timothy 3:1-2...........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach">

Does the Bible say MAN?????
Does the Bible that that that MAN.!!!!
Does the Bible say that the MAN should be the HUSBAND??????

THAT MY BROTHER is what is called FOUNDATIONAL!!!!!

It has NOTHING to do with being bullied or intimidated whatsoever but it has EVERYTHING to do with reading and obeying the Word of God.

Now if you would just put the Word of God ahead of your Pentecostal denominational stance you would be able to clearly see the difference.

 

[Major]

Think about your statement. Maybe speak it out loud so that you notice how dumb it sounds in your out loud voice.

A women hears from God to start a Tent Revival in a little town in upstate New York and many people are saved and a church is planted. She pastors it for two years before the Lord calls her else where. Untold thousands are saved in the church and through the outreach of the church for years to come and maybe as many as 60 pastors are trained and sent all over the world.

You say that woman was breaking the commandments of God because she was a woman. I say that is what a pharisee would say to Jesus about healing on the sabbath. Jesus was not guilty of breaking the sabbath but the pharisee though that they understood the scriptures about the sabbath and that the scripture supported their belligerent accusations. You think you understand some scriptures that ban women from pastoring and I say you don't have the scripture on your side but just think you do and you are the pharisee saying to the woman of God who the Holy Spirit used to save thousands "You are not allowed, you are breaking the commandment of God because you are a woman" But I say she will have eternal rewards for all those saved, and all those pastors who were trained and went out and planted other churches all because she did OBEY God. Jesus warned us of the leaven of the Pharisees and this was what he was talking about. Now I know it is not going to change. Jesus knew we would have to contend with them until He returns. But I can't think of a better example of how we see this leaven in action right before our eyes with this topic.

And as to how I came to believe that women can pastor is that I was filled with the Holy Spirit in prison and read the bible for 3 years. That is why I knew that women were called and equipped on the day of Pentecost and many mentioned in the New Testament including pastors of home churches like Nympha and others. Women teachers like Pricilla taught Apollos. On and on, many many scriptures which you can read about in the paper by Payne linked below.

When I got out of prison I discovered that there were denominations that banned women based on two scriptures they did not understand and ignored all the other scriptures that contradicted their theory. I was surprised that they could be so ignorant. I didn't have any bible school training at that time and I did not come to that conclusion reading those scriptures.

But I by that time I had read some church history and I knew that they actually were following the ecclesiastical domineering of clergy over the laity that occurred by about 300 AD as women were banned after having been very much involved in ministry for the first 200 years. The mix of a male dominating culture and their taking control over the flock resulted in this ignorant babble about women not being allowed to speak in the church. They use two scriptures in a way Paul never intended just like the Catholics used scriptures to justify their power to forgive sins or grant salvation.

When I discovered that the the Assemblies of God interpreted the scriptures as I also did the Lord lead me to fellowship with them and to seek credentials through that fellowship. So your judgment of how I arrived at my doctrinal beliefs were mistaken.

And now you also can learn the scriptures that you have missed all these years by reading this paper below. Then you will have the whole picture instead of the one that your denomination taught you.

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

Charismatic Pentecostals interpret the Scriptures to say what THEY want them to say your your comment actually does not mean anything to me.

The Scriptures Actually say that women CAN NOT be pastors. YOUR denomination ignores the Scriptures my friend......PEROID!

 

[Major]

I agree 100%

Read the history of the Azusa street revival, and the key players (Eye Opening)

I have. Many, many years ago. In fact I produced several papers when I was active in the ministry on the "False Revival".

 

[Major]

Hey like to disagree with your statement. No offence this kind of statement reminds me how some say the same thing about "Caught up/Rapture". That you didn't get it from reading the word. Been saying "here I am".. I did. I'vel been listening to a man of God that has gone home now and the power of God was all over this man.. One could say he was in that camp.. yet was not. Oh he believed women could not preach. I'd been listening for hours/days many sermons. I was so blessed. Awesome how you can see Jesus yet also disagree with some things taught. He would say in those moments "this is me speaking this is what I believe".

So been seeking asking how can some have such power be so close to Him yet be off here. Then think.. like I have the 100% pure word/gospel? HAHA nope. For me its people like this where be unwise to toss it out. I am no one they are someone of God studied for many years. And can still be wrong.

He said if you believe women can preach then (forgot the exact word) off your not hearing from God/in error. It was a tad stronger then what I said lol.

I remember Kathryn kuhlman ..lets not get stuck there please. Its what she said many times. She said what she was doing some man of God said no to. "Throughout life, Kuhlman struggled with her calling to be a preacher as a woman. She said her conviction was that God wanted to appoint a man for her job, but that because no man stepped forward, making her the first to have said “yes.”

Theres so much more to this then just YES or NO. Not that simple

Now, I appreciate your response and the CIVIL manner you made it.

Please understand however that you are not disagreeing with ME. GOD sias, not but God said in 1 Timothy 3:1-2......
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach"."

GOD said......."A MAN".
GOD said......."HE".
GOD said......."Husband".

Those are all MASCULINE Greek pronouns.

The preacher you listened to is RIGHT! You my not like what he said but what he said is what GOD said and that brother is always the key to correct exegesis.

Everything comes down to this.......DO YOU believe what God said is what God said. If not your disagreement is with HIM and not me.

Now......you probably do not want to talk with me about Katheryn Kuhlman. You will not like to hear me.

 

[Aidan1]

Let the brethren step up then, and let them be honourable and worthy. Unction for service is a tangible thing and if I see the unction of the Holy Spirit I count the one unctioned as neither male nor female ... neither did Paul.

Again, this has nothing to do with the question of this thread.
And it changes nothing to the fact, that its nowhere found in the bible that a woman was a leader/ pastor/eldest of a church ore should be.

 

[Dino246]

That is a wonderful well thought out reply.......BUT it still is only YOUR personal OPINION!

None......NONE of what you have posted answers or speaks to the literal words of God as seen in 1 Timothy 3:1-2...........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach">

Does the Bible say MAN?????
Does the Bible that that that MAN.!!!!
Does the Bible say that the MAN should be the HUSBAND??????

THAT MY BROTHER is what is called FOUNDATIONAL!!!!!

It has NOTHING to do with being bullied or intimidated whatsoever but it has EVERYTHING to do with reading and obeying the Word of God.

Now if you would just put the Word of God ahead of your Pentecostal denominational stance you would be able to clearly see the difference.

It's ridiculous to continue claiming this, when you refuse to pay attention to correction. The Greek simply does not have male nouns and pronouns in this passage, aside from "husband".

 

[Scribe]

Charismatic Pentecostals interpret the Scriptures to say what THEY want them to say your your comment actually does not mean anything to me.

The Scriptures Actually say that women CAN NOT be pastors. YOUR denomination ignores the Scriptures my friend......PEROID!

Belligerence will not win this debate.

It comes down to hermeneutics. Properly interpreting scripture. Properly interpreting scripture is not accomplished by demanding that you are doing it right and I am not and adding the word PERIOD.

You must present your reasons using the rules of hermeneutics. The art and science of interpreting scriptures.

Below is an excellent example of both sides of the argument. What one must decide is which one is a more accurate interpretation of the Word of God and which one is making mistakes in their interpretation.

The one that is closest to what the original authors intended in the original context is the correct interpretation or the one that the Holy Spirit intended.

There are others, but these are often quoted in bibliographies by those who have written scholarly presentations on this argument.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF


I believe what I believe because I believe it is the correct interpretation of word of God based on the rules of hermeneutics.

People who are biligerant and condemn others for not agreeing with the word if they don't agree with their bad hermeneutics only intimidate the ignorant sheep that follow them. I am not one of those. I search the scriptures and make sure that the interpretation is correct. At this point Payne has done a much better job in this debate. He is not a Charismatic, Pentecostal.

And saying "I don't need to read reasoning of men" is just code for "I am too stubbornly belligerent to study all the scriptures on the topic and my mind is made up and I don't care if I am wrong, I don't want to discover how I am wrong" because I don't want women to preach in my church. PERIOD

 

[Scribe]

Again, this has nothing to do with the question of this thread.
And it changes nothing to the fact, that its nowhere found in the bible that a woman was a leader/ pastor/eldest of a church ore should be.

Nympha lead a church in her house and so did Pricilla, and so did others. You are wrong and will need to modify your statement and come up with another reason why you don't want women to preach in your church.

 

[Scribe]

That is a wonderful well thought out reply.......BUT it still is only YOUR personal OPINION!

None......NONE of what you have posted answers or speaks to the literal words of God as seen in 1 Timothy 3:1-2...........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach">

Does the Bible say MAN?????
Does the Bible that that that MAN.!!!!
Does the Bible say that the MAN should be the HUSBAND??????

THAT MY BROTHER is what is called FOUNDATIONAL!!!!!

It has NOTHING to do with being bullied or intimidated whatsoever but it has EVERYTHING to do with reading and obeying the Word of God.

Now if you would just put the Word of God ahead of your Pentecostal denominational stance you would be able to clearly see the difference.

Payne is not Pentecostal. This is not a matter of denominations but of properly interpreting scripture. There is much more to 1 Tim 2:11-15 discussed in these papers and since both sides of the argument are expounded upon there is no reason for me to rewrite it. I don't have room in one post to handle it the way they do and so I will keep posting them for those who are serious about analyzing the scriptures.

And for your information, (and it is sad that you don't know this but pretend to be expert on this verse) Most scholars who do NOT believe a woman should pastor believe that Husband of one wife means not to married to more than one wife as that would not be blameless and NOT that he must be married. Therefore the majority of bible believing scholars do not agree with your interpretation that Paul is pointing out that he must be a man but that the elder/bishop/deacon if he is married must not be married to more than one wife and this view is shared by most of those who believe a woman should not pastor. So your one verse is one of the weakest you could use to prove your point as it was never intended to say that a woman cannot pastor and you are trying to read into it something Paul did not have in mind. If he did he would have made a point that a woman should not be appointed as an elder but he never did that so you will never be able to call this an foundational text for your premise. Move on find more. Read Moos article it will equip you to present your cause better than you are doing so far.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

 

[Aidan1]

Nympha lead a church in her house and so did Pricilla, and so did others. You are wrong and will need to modify your statement and come up with another reason why you don't want women to preach in your church.

Then you should read col. 4,15 again. .... the church in his house.... His is, so far I know used for man. Otherwise it would be used the word her.
So this is a very weak proof for what you claim.
Nowhere is it written that Priscilla was Pastor of a church. The fact that she was working together with her man in the ministrie is realy no proof that she was that what you think she was.

 

[Aidan1]

Nympha lead a church in her house and so did Pricilla, and so did others. You are wrong and will need to modify your statement and come up with another reason why you don't want women to preach in your church.

And even when the church was in Nymphas house, it is not said that he was also the leader/pastor/eldest of the church. He could give also only the space for to hold the Service.

 

[Aidan1]

Payne is not Pentecostal. This is not a matter of denominations but of properly interpreting scripture. There is much more to 1 Tim 2:11-15 discussed in these papers and since both sides of the argument are expounded upon there is no reason for me to rewrite it. I don't have room in one post to handle it the way they do and so I will keep posting them for those who are serious about analyzing the scriptures.

And for your information, (and it is sad that you don't know this but pretend to be expert on this verse) Most scholars who do NOT believe a woman should pastor believe that Husband of one wife means not to married to more than one wife as that would not be blameless and NOT that he must be married. Therefore the majority of bible believing scholars do not agree with your interpretation that Paul is pointing out that he must be a man but that the elder/bishop/deacon if he is married must not be married to more than one wife and this view is shared by most of those who believe a woman should not pastor. So your one verse is one of the weakest you could use to prove your point as it was never intended to say that a woman cannot pastor and you are trying to read into it something Paul did not have in mind. If he did he would have made a point that a woman should not be appointed as an elder but he never did that so you will never be able to call this an foundational text for your premise. Move on find more. Read Moos article it will equip you to present your cause better than you are doing so far.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

The majority was never the measure for to be right in the bible. In germany f.e.the majority of Christians do not believe that Jesus Christ is risen from the grave. Should I believe them, because they are the majority?

 

[Scribe]

Then you should read col. 4,15 again. .... the church in his house.... His is, so far I know used for man. Otherwise it would be used the word her.
So this is a very weak proof for what you claim.
Nowhere is it written that Priscilla was Pastor of a church. The fact that she was working together with her man in the ministrie is realy no proof that she was that what you think she was.

She is pointed out first because she was the Gifted Teacher and this has been established by many, many scholars throughout church history, even F.F. Bruce and many others. It is not even questioned by serious scholars.

It is also not a question that Nympha was a woman. KJV was wrong. Read up on the discussion. There is not a single serious Greek Scholar and textual manuscript expert anywhere that believes KJV was correct in calling her a male.

That is almost every single English translation but the KJV says her.

Now here is where the intellectual dishonesty occurs. When those scholars who do not believe a woman should pastor concede that Nympha is a woman then they start to give reasons why she was not the pastor (with no evidence) just because she had a church in her house. But if it is a male that is mentioned with a church in his house they will say he was the pastor without any evidence.

She was a woman and she was most likely the spiritual leader of that church in her house as well. And she is not the only one. Read Paynes examples.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

 

[Scribe]

And even when the church was in Nymphas house, it is not said that he was also the leader/pastor/eldest of the church. He could give also only the space for to hold the Service.

This is discussed in Payne's exegesis on the scriptures that mention house churches. And according to many articles written about it there is evidence that those who had churches in their houses were leaders as well.

 

[Scribe]

The majority was never the measure for to be right in the bible. In germany f.e.the majority of Christians do not believe that Jesus Christ is risen from the grave. Should I believe them, because they are the majority?

The majority of Born again, believers who believe that the scriptures are the inspired word of God, and who are also Greek Scholar, textual manuscript experts, has weight, since it would make sense that most would come to the same conclusions if they were all following the rules of interpretation. I mean if they understood the reasons behind the question over translation of Greek in this case and they all agree that she was a woman it has weight. So until I am a Greek and manuscript expert I will need to lean on the expertise of others and if the majority or almost ALL agree on a translation it is a good indication that there is very strong evidence for it.

So your statement does not even apply to the context and is another example of how not to reason when it comes to translation and interpretations.

 

[cv5]

She is pointed out first because she was the Gifted Teacher and this has been established by many, many scholars throughout church history, even F.F. Bruce and many others. It is not even questioned by serious scholars.

It is also not a question that Nympha was a woman. KJV was wrong. Read up on the discussion. There is not a single serious Greek Scholar and textual manuscript expert anywhere that believes KJV was correct in calling her a male.

That is almost every single English translation but the KJV says her.

Now here is where the intellectual dishonesty occurs. When those scholars who do not believe a woman should pastor concede that Nympha is a woman then they start to give reasons why she was not the pastor (with no evidence) just because she had a church in her house. But if it is a male that is mentioned with a church in his house they will say he was the pastor without any evidence.

She was a woman and she was most likely the spiritual leader of that church in her house as well. And she is not the only one. Read Paynes examples.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

The countervailing evidence is that there are NO records whatsoever of women pastors/elders/bishops leading any known legitimate Church......for well over 2000 years.

No, but the truth is that this woman pastor phenomenon is very VERY recent (only the last 20 years or so), very wrong and unscriptural. It is a grievous heresy and is a manifestation of the end of the age rebellious Church. It is the result of an overall Satanic agenda to destroy the properly ordained Godly roles of men and women and family set forth from the beginning of human history.

Your supporting argument that Nymphia is pastoring a congregation is quite frankly preposterous in light of the clearly defined commands of Paul set forth for the very purpose of eliminating the possibility of women as leaders and pastors in the Church!

Allowing women pastors is heretical and supporting them is rebellion.