Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??
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Red herring. While it's true that there were no women among the initial 12 apostles, there is no record of men being ordained to any other role. If there were, I'm sure you would present the evidence with no hesitation.
Instead, you claim "No record of ordaining women" while quietly avoiding the fact that there is no record of ordaining men either.
Again, let's have one standard.
Instead, you claim "No record of ordaining women" while quietly avoiding the fact that there is no record of ordaining men either.
Again, let's have one standard.
thanks for the reply, but I'll go with the BIBLe.
and as for as our sister, Phebe
Romans 16:1 & 2 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
the word succourer reveals clearly as to what business she was to perform. the word succourer: is G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n. 1. a patroness, i.e. assistant. it’s the feminine of a derivative of G4291, the male counter part. the derivative here is like saying Prophet, (male) is to a Prophetess, (female)
and what is G4291? Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-iy'-stee-miy) v.
1. to stand before.
2. (in rank) to preside.
3. (by implication) to practise.
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476
so our Sister was in a position thar she be rule over, as in OVERSEER? and here's why,
Thayer's Greek Definitions
succourer
Original: προστάτις
- Transliteration: Prostatis
- Phonetic: pros-tat'-is
- Definition:
1. a woman set over others
2. a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources
- Origin: from a derivative of G4291
- TDNT entry: None
it says, Origin: from a derivative of G4291, ok what's G4291
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-iy'-stee-miy) v.
- Original: προΐ́στημι
- Transliteration: Proistemi
- Phonetic: pro-is'-tay-mee
- Definition:
1. to set or place before
a. to set over
b. to be over, to superintend, preside over
c. to be a protector or guardian
1. to give aid
d. to care for, give attention to
1. profess honest occupations
- Origin: from G4253 and G2476
- TDNT entry: 6:700,*
From the above two definition, #1a, and 1b, our sister Phebe is a female in the same position, or function, the same work as the male counter paart in the same position or function. Lets look at a bishop from the above two definitions.
1a. to set over, scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues”.
question?, so where is the Bishop or the Pastor in this scripture? the Bishop/Pastor is in the apostle, the prophet, and the teacher. because the pastor is not a office, but a work. an office is not in the Hebrew mindset, but in western culture, or thinking, it is understood that way.
1b. to be over, to superintend, preside over, scripture, Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you”. Hebrews 13:7 "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation”.
1 Thessalonians 5:12 "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you”.
So a succourer, a female, in this case, WHO IS IN THE LORD, is one set over, rule, and preside over other. It also states, to superintend, and to care for, give attention to. Lets look at the bishop duties.
Bishop: G1984 ἐπισκοπή episkope (e-piy-sko-pee') n.
1. inspection (for relief).
2. (by implication) superintendence.
3. (specially) the Christian “episcopate.”
episcopate? the word means, BISHOP. a bishop is to a superintendence, just as our Sister in her counterpart role as a Female succourer.
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi is to care for
This woman have bishop written all over her. Lets look at the bishop in 1 Timothy 3:1 "This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. so the Bishop office is a WORK. according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words concerning “office”, Noun, G4234 πρᾶξις praxis (prax`-is) n.
1. practice
2. (concretely) an act
3. (by extension) a function
[from G4238]
KJV: deed, office, work
so it's from,
G4238 πράσσω prasso (pras'-so) v.
1. to practice, i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually
2. (by implication) to execute, accomplish, etc.
3. (specially) to collect (dues), fare (personally)
KJV: commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts
doing a deed" (akin to prasso, "to do or practice"), also denotes "an acting" or "function," translated "office" in Rom 12:4. See DEED. a deed is a work or Labor.
so the bible is clear, that this woman held the office of BISHOP, hence ordained.
PICJAG,
101G
and as for as our sister, Phebe
Romans 16:1 & 2 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
the word succourer reveals clearly as to what business she was to perform. the word succourer: is G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n. 1. a patroness, i.e. assistant. it’s the feminine of a derivative of G4291, the male counter part. the derivative here is like saying Prophet, (male) is to a Prophetess, (female)
and what is G4291? Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-iy'-stee-miy) v.
1. to stand before.
2. (in rank) to preside.
3. (by implication) to practise.
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476
so our Sister was in a position thar she be rule over, as in OVERSEER? and here's why,
Thayer's Greek Definitions
succourer
Original: προστάτις
- Transliteration: Prostatis
- Phonetic: pros-tat'-is
- Definition:
1. a woman set over others
2. a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources
- Origin: from a derivative of G4291
- TDNT entry: None
it says, Origin: from a derivative of G4291, ok what's G4291
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-iy'-stee-miy) v.
- Original: προΐ́στημι
- Transliteration: Proistemi
- Phonetic: pro-is'-tay-mee
- Definition:
1. to set or place before
a. to set over
b. to be over, to superintend, preside over
c. to be a protector or guardian
1. to give aid
d. to care for, give attention to
1. profess honest occupations
- Origin: from G4253 and G2476
- TDNT entry: 6:700,*
From the above two definition, #1a, and 1b, our sister Phebe is a female in the same position, or function, the same work as the male counter paart in the same position or function. Lets look at a bishop from the above two definitions.
1a. to set over, scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues”.
question?, so where is the Bishop or the Pastor in this scripture? the Bishop/Pastor is in the apostle, the prophet, and the teacher. because the pastor is not a office, but a work. an office is not in the Hebrew mindset, but in western culture, or thinking, it is understood that way.
1b. to be over, to superintend, preside over, scripture, Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you”. Hebrews 13:7 "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation”.
1 Thessalonians 5:12 "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you”.
So a succourer, a female, in this case, WHO IS IN THE LORD, is one set over, rule, and preside over other. It also states, to superintend, and to care for, give attention to. Lets look at the bishop duties.
Bishop: G1984 ἐπισκοπή episkope (e-piy-sko-pee') n.
1. inspection (for relief).
2. (by implication) superintendence.
3. (specially) the Christian “episcopate.”
episcopate? the word means, BISHOP. a bishop is to a superintendence, just as our Sister in her counterpart role as a Female succourer.
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi is to care for
This woman have bishop written all over her. Lets look at the bishop in 1 Timothy 3:1 "This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. so the Bishop office is a WORK. according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words concerning “office”, Noun, G4234 πρᾶξις praxis (prax`-is) n.
1. practice
2. (concretely) an act
3. (by extension) a function
[from G4238]
KJV: deed, office, work
so it's from,
G4238 πράσσω prasso (pras'-so) v.
1. to practice, i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually
2. (by implication) to execute, accomplish, etc.
3. (specially) to collect (dues), fare (personally)
KJV: commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts
doing a deed" (akin to prasso, "to do or practice"), also denotes "an acting" or "function," translated "office" in Rom 12:4. See DEED. a deed is a work or Labor.
so the bible is clear, that this woman held the office of BISHOP, hence ordained.
PICJAG,
101G
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Interesting belief. If you have any evidence that we should entertain that belief, please share. If not, let’s continue reading the Scriptures as usual. It’s an impressive sidestep to the obvious verbiage. But no worry, Jesus is a great dancer. This is not consistent with his usage of “the Law”. Also it is not consistent with the way he referred to the other letter on other passages of his letters to them.
No. You do NOT go with the Bible, you press something into the Bible which is not there. And I wonder where you have gotten this view from and who have taught you so. Whosoever that person or these persons be, have erred. Phoebe is quiet well known to be said to have been a deaconess, and a lady may be a deaconess. But not a bishop. Church history records do not list Phoebe as a bishop.
Imagine the upheaval if the apostles had ordained. If there was ordained women clergy in the early church then for sure we would have numerous records and mentioning of such among fathers, who would all agree on such information. But we don't. And do not make Paul preach against himself, will you. That will mess up things a lot for you.
Imagine the upheaval if the apostles had ordained. If there was ordained women clergy in the early church then for sure we would have numerous records and mentioning of such among fathers, who would all agree on such information. But we don't. And do not make Paul preach against himself, will you. That will mess up things a lot for you.
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Is that all Paul is for you, a guy merely offering his personal opinions? You must have missed when we wrote (on this very issue) "the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1Cor.14:37). Of course this was in compliance with the Law of God and what it says. So if you despise Paul's writings on the matter, you do also despise God's commandments.
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Yes, Phoebe was a deacon, not an elder. However, the requirements for deacon contain the same alleged restriction on women as those for elders. However, because Phoebe was commended as a deacon by Paul himself, you cannot logically conclude that "husband of one wife" excludes women from either role. As you say, don't make Paul preach against himself. 
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Yes, Phoebe was a deacon, not an elder. However, the requirements for deacon contain the same alleged restriction on women as those for elders. However, because Phoebe was commended as a deacon by Paul himself, you cannot logically conclude that "husband of one wife" excludes women from either role. As you say, don't make Paul preach against himself.
Again, you are arguing with Paul, not me. I didn't write this. Get that.
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Qualifications For A Bishop Is To Be A Married "Man" That Rules His House Well, Read It Before Your Eyes, In Bold Red
1 Timothy 3:1-5KJV
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1 Timothy 3:1-5KJV
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
I'm not arguing with Paul or with The Lord.
This is the language of control you are using in an attempt to intimidate. It's really no different from the way the Pharisees behaved.
Those stressing religious authoritarianism have always struggled with understanding the heart of God.
This was a problem in pre-Babylonian exile Israel and it was a problem in Jesus day.
There is a need for structure. I get that, but not at the expense of the heart of our mission.
Because the world currently has a problem with aggressive third-wave feminists doesn't mean all women in the church must be silenced.
We should be wary of both extremes.
People have to be judged as individuals. If you personally hold a teacher or leader back whom the Lord has chosen,
simply on the basis of gender, it's you who will have to answer to the Lord. We have a job to do and the workers are few.
This is the language of control you are using in an attempt to intimidate. It's really no different from the way the Pharisees behaved.
Those stressing religious authoritarianism have always struggled with understanding the heart of God.
This was a problem in pre-Babylonian exile Israel and it was a problem in Jesus day.
There is a need for structure. I get that, but not at the expense of the heart of our mission.
Because the world currently has a problem with aggressive third-wave feminists doesn't mean all women in the church must be silenced.
We should be wary of both extremes.
People have to be judged as individuals. If you personally hold a teacher or leader back whom the Lord has chosen,
simply on the basis of gender, it's you who will have to answer to the Lord. We have a job to do and the workers are few.
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As cancel culture would say, your male elitist privilege is showing! There was no male headship in the Garden of Eden. Eve was called an "ezer-warrior." She was equal to the man. In fact, besides the 2 references to the word Ezer for Eve in the Garden, that word was used for God rescuing his people, and military strength. That means that Eve was a strong warrior, prepared to stand at Adam's side through all things. The woman is not called an ezer warrior after the Fall. That was when roles started, not God's Plan A, but Plan B.
In fact, I would think since Christ saved us and set us free, we should be trying to live as Christians in a new, changed way than the abject sinners Adam and Eve were after the Fall. Certainly recognizing women as equals is part of the Kingdom of God. Besides, there are many men pastors with "pure" credentials, who live secret sinful lives. Ravi Zacharius comes to mind, with his molesting or raping any woman he wanted. A long time ago it was Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker! Fine, upstanding godly men, until they were found out about their secret sins.
Better to have a woman as lead pastor, because most women are not after sex with many men all the time. (I recognize many men are not like this, but because of the way women are, a normal woman is not sex crazy!)
As as for comparing God-called women to sinful men, such as homosexuals is really putting down women! It shows your deep seated misogyny, by making any woman equal to outright sinful men. I won't argue against the truth that some women are sinful, or even willfully sinful, but I think if a survey on pastor's secret lives was done, a lot of men pastors would lose their ordination. Even in theology, men have issues. I think my pastor is morally righteous. But his theology stinks! He believes in open theology, which undermines the sovereignty of God. And his sermons show it! Meanwhile, or assistant pastor is a young woman who preaches well, and is very orthodox in her theology. She preaches better than our senior pastor. She inspires the church to walk closer to Christ, preaches not just good theology, but application. I've been considering leaving the church over the pastor, but I need to wait till we are back in our churches. Where I live, all churches have been totally shut, because our COVID cases are at their highest ever. Yet, no one has offered a shred of evidence that the virus is being passed around at churches. That is definitely the left trying to destroy Christianity in Canada.
The fact is, women are and can be pastors. And all this bad theology, saying we should, as baptized believers, not look forward to the liberation from sin that Jesus brought by dying in the cross, but instead constantly focus on the Fall and its results is ludicrous! Gal 3:28-29 says:
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."
This is the promise of following Jesus Christ. Not rigid roles and barriers to women, slaves and Gentiles. But rather each person God picks being put in a complex, man-made hierarchical community, but rather all equal and using their God-given gifts to serve the community of God!
The language of control, the Pharisees (how many times have one heard that, thrown out like a frog together with the ignorance of what pharisaism actually is). "Authoritarianism" is quite a rare one. Well, seeing your absence of scripture in your reasoning it's obvious that you go by your own emotions. I rest assured about what scripture says and that settles it for me. And, yes, I do believe that those who argue with scripture does have a problem with scripture. If the errors of such gainsayers can be corrected depends on the presence or lack of humility in such persons.
*sighs* I have not called all who believe in ordination of females feminists, I am well aware that all who does so aren't. However, they have theologically failed in that one issue. They have fail to understand the commandments of the Lord and the order He has set up. I do not also talk about individuals, there can be those who yet are unlearned and will change once they learn more, I talk about theological errors and the goofing out on putting into scripture and church history things which never were there. THAT tells me of "a heart" that should not be so hasty to deem itself as being right and worry more for itself than about others answering for the Lord.
*sighs* I have not called all who believe in ordination of females feminists, I am well aware that all who does so aren't. However, they have theologically failed in that one issue. They have fail to understand the commandments of the Lord and the order He has set up. I do not also talk about individuals, there can be those who yet are unlearned and will change once they learn more, I talk about theological errors and the goofing out on putting into scripture and church history things which never were there. THAT tells me of "a heart" that should not be so hasty to deem itself as being right and worry more for itself than about others answering for the Lord.