How to be Born Again

[FreeGrace2]

Interestingly, Paul also made a distinction here between the Body of Christ and the little flock of Israel, in which the 12, James and the Jewish believers would fall under the latter, in Galatians 6

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

1. as many as walk according to this rule: Body of Christ
2. Israel of God : Little flock (Romans 9:6)

So, what's the distinction here anyway? v.15 makes clear that there is NO benefit from circumcision.

And v.16 shows that "walk according to THIS RULE" refers to being a "new creature" from v.15.

So there you go AGAIN. There is NO distinction between those who are in Christ.

You guys are just trying to beat a very dead horse. I recommend you let it go.

 

[Guojing]

So, what's the distinction here anyway? v.15 makes clear that there is NO benefit from circumcision.

And v.16 shows that "walk according to THIS RULE" refers to being a "new creature" from v.15.

So there you go AGAIN. There is NO distinction between those who are in Christ.

You guys are just trying to beat a very dead horse. I recommend you let it go.

Acts 21:20-25, which happened after Paul wrote Galatians, shows the distinction between the Body of Christ and the Israel of God, regarding physical circumcision.

 

[throughfaith]

So you think I don't see any distinction among unbelievers. What's wrong with your faulty assessment?

//When the Messiah came and died for everyone, there is NO MORE distinction between Jew and Gentile. Gal 3:28 says so// You said. Yes in christ . Who's making a claim that ' in christ ' there is a distinction?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Acts 21:20-25, which happened after Paul wrote Galatians, shows the distinction between the Body of Christ and the Israel of God, regarding physical circumcision.

OK, let's look at that passage:

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.
22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come,
23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow.
24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

So, where's this distinction that you are claiming? I don't see any.

This passage descusses the issue of the SAVED believing Jews (v.20) who were lied to about how Paul lived.

What I still don't understand from your posts is how you view "the israel of God". Please describe them as you understand that phrase.

Include:
were they believers?
were they saved?

Thanks. Maybe this will get to the heart of the discussion.

If they are saved believers (there is no other kind), then you still have no point. In Christ, there are no distinctions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

//When the Messiah came and died for everyone, there is NO MORE distinction between Jew and Gentile. Gal 3:28 says so// You said. Yes in christ . Who's making a claim that ' in christ ' there is a distinction?

Who is? Who knows? I still have no idea what your point is, or the other poster's.

 

[brightfame52]

There is no how to in being born again. One is at the Sovereign Mercy of God in that matter Also one would have to be in Christ by Election to be born again, even as they had to be in Adam to be born the first time, which they had nothing to do with.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is no how to in being born again.

Correct. It is God alone who gives the new birth. John 1:13 - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Also one would have to be in Christ by Election to be born again

Correction: no one is "in Christ by election".

This is what Eph 1:4 says: For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

The red words tell us that God does the choosing.
The blue words tell us the purpose of this election. It is not about salvation or being born again.
The green words define who God chooses to be holy and blameless: those who are "in Him".

One further thing: v.19 clearly defines who the "us" are in v.4.

and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

Paul used the first person plural (us, we, our) 11 times when he wrote v.19. So, the entire first chapter is for all believers.

Therefore, v.4 teaches clearly that God chose believers (who are) in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight.

even as they had to be in Adam to be born the first time, which they had nothing to do with.

True.

 

[Guojing]

OK, let's look at that passage:

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.
22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come,
23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow.
24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

So, where's this distinction that you are claiming? I don't see any.

This passage descusses the issue of the SAVED believing Jews (v.20) who were lied to about how Paul lived.

What I still don't understand from your posts is how you view "the israel of God". Please describe them as you understand that phrase.

Include:
were they believers?
were they saved?

Thanks. Maybe this will get to the heart of the discussion.

If they are saved believers (there is no other kind), then you still have no point. In Christ, there are no distinctions.

From that passage, in vs 21-24, did James believe that physical circumcision and keeping the Law, continue to be compulsory for the Israel of God?

Yet in vs 25, did he exempt gentile believers from that, as originally stated in Acts 15?

There is your distinction, that you refuse to see.

 

[brightfame52]

Correct. It is God alone who gives the new birth. John 1:13 - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.


Correction: no one is "in Christ by election".

This is what Eph 1:4 says: For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

The red words tell us that God does the choosing.
The blue words tell us the purpose of this election. It is not about salvation or being born again.
The green words define who God chooses to be holy and blameless: those who are "in Him".

One further thing: v.19 clearly defines who the "us" are in v.4.

and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

Paul used the first person plural (us, we, our) 11 times when he wrote v.19. So, the entire first chapter is for all believers.

Therefore, v.4 teaches clearly that God chose believers (who are) in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight.


True.

Sorry you have to be in Christ to be born again, that is by election before the foundation Eph 1:4

 

[FreeGrace2]

From that passage, in vs 21-24, did James believe that physical circumcision and keeping the Law, continue to be compulsory for the Israel of God?

Let's look at v.21-24

21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers.
23 With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

From this, the answer is no, obviously.

Yet in vs 25, did he exempt gentile believers from that, as originally stated in Acts 15?

Again, let's look at v.25-

25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul—

Nothing here about exempting anyone.

There is your distinction, that you refuse to see.

Except none of the verses that you have cited show anything of which you claim.

The whole issue in Actss 15 was that believers of the Pharisee party claimed that believers MUST BE circumcized to be saved.

v.1 - 1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”

What followed was a clear statement that circumcision does NOT SAVE.

OK, after these comments I realized that you were quoting from Acts 21. But what I said from ch 15 are very important in this discussion, so I'm keeping my comments.

Now, for v.21-24
21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.
22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come,
23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow.
24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

OK, Paul continued to live in obedience to the Law. So what? He sure didn't believe that the Law was part of what saved him.

Here's v.25 - 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

These are rules for HEALTH. Physical health. The Law contains many beneficial rules for health. Like not eating pork, for example.

In the OT, poorly cooked pork would lead to serious health issues, like Trichinosis and such.

I STILL do not see anything that supports your supposed "distinction" between Gentile and Jewish believers.

If there are any such distinctions, you have not been able to show them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry you have to be in Christ to be born again, that is by election before the foundation Eph 1:4

I just explained Eph 1:4 to you. And you are simply misreading the verse. The parenthetical phrase "in Him" simply defines the "us".

It could be rendered "us who are in Him". And I showed that Paul defined who the "us" are in v.19 by the words, "for us who believe".

So, v.4 has nothing to do with being chosen or elected to be born again, or even to be saved.

It is about believers (us) being chosen to be holy and blameless.

How many verses would you like to see that clearly show that election is for service? I'd be very happy to share them.

 

[brightfame52]

I just explained Eph 1:4 to you. And you are simply misreading the verse. The parenthetical phrase "in Him" simply defines the "us".

It could be rendered "us who are in Him". And I showed that Paul defined who the "us" are in v.19 by the words, "for us who believe".

So, v.4 has nothing to do with being chosen or elected to be born again, or even to be saved.

It is about believers (us) being chosen to be holy and blameless.

How many verses would you like to see that clearly show that election is for service? I'd be very happy to share them.

Your explanation is bogus friend. Being born again Spiritually is evidence of one having life in Christ and being in Christ, just as one being born naturally is evidence of having life and having been in adam.

 

[Guojing]

Let's look at v.21-24

21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers.
23 With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

From this, the answer is no, obviously.


Again, let's look at v.25-

25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul—

Nothing here about exempting anyone.


Except none of the verses that you have cited show anything of which you claim.

The whole issue in Actss 15 was that believers of the Pharisee party claimed that believers MUST BE circumcized to be saved.

v.1 - 1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”

What followed was a clear statement that circumcision does NOT SAVE.

OK, after these comments I realized that you were quoting from Acts 21. But what I said from ch 15 are very important in this discussion, so I'm keeping my comments.

Now, for v.21-24
21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.
22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come,
23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow.
24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

OK, Paul continued to live in obedience to the Law. So what? He sure didn't believe that the Law was part of what saved him.

Here's v.25 - 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

These are rules for HEALTH. Physical health. The Law contains many beneficial rules for health. Like not eating pork, for example.

In the OT, poorly cooked pork would lead to serious health issues, like Trichinosis and such.

I STILL do not see anything that supports your supposed "distinction" between Gentile and Jewish believers.

If there are any such distinctions, you have not been able to show them.

You now want to answer the question that you used the wrong passage for, with the right one, which is found in acts 21?

From that passage, in vs 20-24, did James believe that physical circumcision and keeping the Law, continue to be compulsory for the Israel of God?

That is where you will find the distinction

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your explanation is bogus friend.

The verse is quite clearly stated. And I PROVED from v.19 that "us" means believers. So the verse very obviously teaches that God has chosen BELIEVERS to be holy and blameless. You should re-evaluate your Calvinist teachings in the light of clear Scripture.

Being born again Spiritually is evidence of one having life in Christ and being in Christ, just as one being born naturally is evidence of having life and having been in adam.

No it isn't. And you haven't supported your view with Scripture.

I asked how many verses you'd like to see that prove that election is for service. And you seem totally uninterested in what the Bible says about election. Why is that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You now want to answer the question that you used the wrong passage for, with the right one, which is found in acts 21?

I made that clear. Is that a problem for you?

From that passage, in vs 20-24, did James believe that physical circumcision and keeping the Law, continue to be compulsory for the Israel of God?

I saw nothing about a requirement for circumcision.

Maybe you could just point out the exact words that you think support such a distinction.

That is where you will find the distinction

Then do all of us a favor and point out the exact words that support your claim.

 

[Guojing]

I made that clear. Is that a problem for you?


I saw nothing about a requirement for circumcision.

Maybe you could just point out the exact words that you think support such a distinction.


Then do all of us a favor and point out the exact words that support your claim.

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.
22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come,
23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow.
24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.

What was James and the elders accusing Paul of doing in vs 21?

Why are they telling him to participate in a law requirement in vs24 for?

Would they do that if they believe that following the law, including physical circumcision is not required?

 

[FreeGrace2]

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.
22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come,
23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow.
24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.

What was James and the elders accusing Paul of doing in vs 21?

OK, now I see your problem. You are totally misreading v.21.

The "they" of v.21 refers to the "many thousands of Jews who have believed". Clearly. Now, the problem. You have to ask yourself WHO "informed THEM" (the many thousands of Jews) that Paul was teaching "all the Jews to turn away from Moses, etc"?\

What you obviously don't realize is that these "many thousands of Jews" were being LIED to by the orthodox unbelieving Jews, who only wanted to get Paul into trouble. Haven't you ever read through Acts before? The unbelieving Jews were ALWAYS opposing Paul and His message. And they had no problem LYING about him.

iow, the charges in v.21 were LIES. Not the truth.

Why are they telling him to participate in a law requirement in vs24 for?

To prove that the charges in v.21 were LIES, obviously.

Would they do that if they believe that following the law, including physical circumcision is not required?

Sure. They wanted Paul to prove to the "many thousands of Jews" who had been LIED to that Paul never taught Gentiles what the unbelieving Jews were accusing him of.

Problem solved.

Now all that's left is for you to repent of your confused view.

 

[brightfame52]

The verse is quite clearly stated. And I PROVED from v.19 that "us" means believers. So the verse very obviously teaches that God has chosen BELIEVERS to be holy and blameless. You should re-evaluate your Calvinist teachings in the light of clear Scripture.


No it isn't. And you haven't supported your view with Scripture.

I asked how many verses you'd like to see that prove that election is for service. And you seem totally uninterested in what the Bible says about election. Why is that?

You dont understand these things friend.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You dont understand these things friend.

Obviously you don't. I proved that election is not about salvation or being born again, and you just blow it off.

I even gave you the opportunity to see many verses that clearly and plainly state the purpose of election, which is to service, but you are not interested.

That says everything.

 

[brightfame52]

Obviously you don't. I proved that election is not about salvation or being born again, and you just blow it off.

I even gave you the opportunity to see many verses that clearly and plainly state the purpose of election, which is to service, but you are not interested.

That says everything.

obviously you dont !