There is no New Testament command to pay tithes

[Runningman]

I am not sure if you are saying I am not a believer in Christ or you are suggesting one thinks this as to do with only money?

You are wrong on both counts. The truth that many hold their money very close to them because most people have to work very hard for iT!


There is a difference between giving a lamb or goat or camel 2000 years ago and money today is payment was done by those live animals. Jesus also said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a Rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Matthew 19:24.

While you attack those who do tithe, my Biblical focus was on GIVING. Which Jesus said to do. IF you don't tithe that is between you and God as it is for those who give between them and God.


I love how some use the word of God as a way not to give. Which part of Maleciah applies to us or is anything we to apply in our lives in the context of Giving?

I'm saying that conditional verses like the one you quoted, isolated by themselves, don't apply to everyone unless it's God's will.

I was definitely not trying to say you are not a Christian. I do believe you are a Christian. Sorry if that came off the wrong way.

Anyway, back to the point, the main goal of my post here is to dispel false teachings on tithing and hopefully, in process of commuting this goal, have some good discussion.

I haven't told anyone to stop giving to the church. Actually, I concluded in my opening comment that God loves a cheerful giver. He really does! The state of our heart is vitally important in everything we do.

 

[CS1]

I'm saying that conditional verses like the one you quoted, isolated by themselves, don't apply to everyone unless it's God's will.

I was definitely not trying to say you are not a Christian. I do believe you are a Christian. Sorry if that came off the wrong way.

Anyway, back to the point, the main goal of my post here is to dispel false teachings on tithing and hopefully, in process of commuting this goal, have some good discussion.

I haven't told anyone to stop giving to the church. Actually, I concluded in my opening comment that God loves a cheerful giver. He really does! The state of our heart is vitally important in everything we do.

Ok,

thank you for your clarification. Again I believe the word of God from Genesis to Rev. Giving is to be a normality

Able & Cain were doing what?

Noah?
Abraham?
Isaac?
Jacob?


Moses,
What I think many don't see it they look at the word of God to see how they are not supposed to give instead of looking at the normality of Giving to God by those who are the people of God.

Tithe and first fruits are often grouped together, but they’re definitely not the same thing. A tithe is a specific amount (10% of your income) Leviticus 27:30

The word of God actually supports giving more than the tithe, yet God has even put in His word those who are poor and how they to can give unto the Lord.

Yes there are those who have perverted tithe for rich schemes. But that is not only in the " Tithe".


Jesus said Give, and Even said to test God with your giving, the key is to give unto the Lord with the right heart, to give out of Love for God and others. While those arguments about giving many receive support from the Government who don't even work, yet that money was taken from those who do work to support those who do not( those without legit reason) I hear no one saying that should not be so. God doesn't take your offering nor does the church take your tithes It receives them. You give or you don't.

I wonder how many took the stimulus check knowing they did not need it? I think there is something in the word of God that speaks to doing that.

 

[Runningman]

OK Runningman and i don't mean to be a pain i just have seen/sensed some evil in the church and i don't like it
i don't feel that need to apologise for that, and i don't want to accuse anyone either
but something is wrong and i'm sure of that much, the way that pastors act does not help with their arrogant demands for money i have no 'spiritual reserve' of tolerance - nope. Zero. If I see it, it means fleecing the flock. That is what I think and that is what I'm saying

Okie.

Well, merely possessing material or monetary wealth isn't a mark of corruption. I am not saying that corruption is non-existent either. I'm saying that if someone is corrupt there will be other ways to identify it.

 

[CS1]

what about the pastors that yuck around in private jets?

THAT "pastor" is not reflective of all. What about the one who has to work and be a pastor?

 

[Dino246]

Tithe and first fruits are often grouped together, but they’re definitely not the same thing. A tithe is a specific amount (10% of your income) Leviticus 27:30

That's where many people are in error, most likely due to not reading carefully, or reading through preconceived ideas.

A biblical tithe, required only of ancient Israel, was not 10% of their income; it was 10% of their increase. There is a difference. To a man who works, his wages are given him not as a gift, but as an obligation (Romans 4:4); he has traded labour for money. Nowhere in Scripture is there a command to pay tithes on the income from labour. According to Leviticus 27, tithes are payable on crops and domestic animals, not labour-income. By the way, Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek does not inform us for three reasons: it was never commanded, it was a single time, and it was on war spoils, not increase or labour.

 

[Musicmaster]

You are mistating or misinterpreting Paul's doctrine here. If this were the case, you would be damned if you did not commit murder. You would be damned if you never ate camel.

I don't see how non-adherence to the letter of the law would require us to go out and murder, etc.

The issue is seeking to be justified by the law. For a Gentile, that would mean getting circumcised and taking on the obligation to obey the law. The heart attitude behind doing that would be a lack of faith in Christ.

That's what I was saying.

If going into the temple and paying for temple rituals damned a Christian, then Paul would have been damned.

I don't know where you got that from what I said.

The Jewish Christians he went into the temple with to pay their expenses would have been damned, too. It is implied that the Jewish believers in Acts were keeping the law (or trying to).

When we speak of implication, that doesn't correlate to absolute fact. So, when it says they were zealous for the law, that may imply in some people's thinking that is was the keeping of the law for salvation, but I don't think Paul would have let that continue on without addressing it in strong terms as he did with the Galatians.

MM

 

[CS1]

That's where many people are in error, most likely due to not reading carefully, or reading through preconceived ideas.

A biblical tithe, required only of ancient Israel, was not 10% of their income; it was 10% of their increase. There is a difference. To a man who works, his wages are given him not as a gift, but as an obligation (Romans 4:4); he has traded labour for money. Nowhere in Scripture is there a command to pay tithes on the income from labour. According to Leviticus 27, tithes are payable on crops and domestic animals, not labour-income. By the way, Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek does not inform us for three reasons: it was never commanded, it was a single time, and it was on war spoils, not increase or labour.

again the tithe is in context to giving which Christ and the word of God show are to be normality and is too, a form of worship.

Tithe, offering, firstfruits, etc... are all about what we give to God. That has not changed. You want to choke tithes go right ahead, the point I am making is there are many ways to give to God as there are many ways HE provides heals, and sets free.

it is not an error. You are just against tithing.

FYI Tithe =
tithe, tenth part

1. tenth part
2. tithe, payment of a tenth part what is apart? it is a percentage. That is right from the Hebrew.

Jesus said in MATTHEW 23:23 apodekatoō "to exact receive a tenth from anyone" IN THE GREEK.


Luke 11: 42

“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Everything The " Preist" Offered came from the people of God. The tithe and offerings were not from the priest but from the People of God who HE was the representative of the people. Yet they held back the good part that was supposed to be offered and excepted the sick the lame and blind animals which Maleciah addressed. Where did the priest get the tenth from to offer?

 

[Dino246]

again the tithe is in context to giving which Christ and the word of God show are to be normality and is too, a form of worship.

Tithe, offering, firstfruits, etc... are all about what we give to God. That has not changed. You want to choke tithes go right ahead, the point I am making is there are many ways to give to God as there are many ways HE provides heals, and sets free.

it is not an error. You are just against tithing.

FYI Tithe =
tithe, tenth part

1. tenth part
2. tithe, payment of a tenth part what is apart? it is a percentage. That is right from the Hebrew.

Jesus said in MATTHEW 23:23 apodekatoō "to exact receive a tenth from anyone" IN THE GREEK.


Luke 11: 42

“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Everything The " Preist" Offered came from the people of God. The tithe and offerings were not from the priest but from the People of God who HE was the representative of the people. Yet they held back the good part that was supposed to be offered and excepted the sick the lame and blind animals which Maleciah addressed. Where did the priest get the tenth from to offer?

I am against "tithing" because we are not under the Law, and there is no command given to Christians to bring tithes to anyone. Using the terms "tithe" and "tithing" is confusing because people drag the old covenant command into the Church, where it does not belong.

As I made clear in an earlier post, there is plenty said to Christians about giving. However, Christian giving, even to the local church to support its ongoing ministry, is not "tithing" according to Scripture. Conflate the concepts and you cause confusion.

 

[CS1]

I am against "tithing" because we are not under the Law, and there is no command given to Christians to bring tithes to anyone. Using the terms "tithe" and "tithing" is confusing because people drag the old covenant command into the Church, where it does not belong.

As I made clear in an earlier post, there is plenty said to Christians about giving. However, Christian giving, even to the local church to support its ongoing ministry, is not "tithing" according to Scripture. Conflate the concepts and you cause confusion.

There is no command to give, yet Jesus said to give. I guess when Jesus says to do something we should not take it as a command?

I am glad you are against what the Bible teaches about giving yet, it is normative. Tithing is not confusing it is as simple as giving.

it is not dragging old into something. Giving is well established in the Word of God.

Do you give to the church you attend? Or do you even go to church? All that was given was done to ensure the Work of the Lord continued as it was then in the Old Testament so it is today. Nothing has changed

To suggest that is not the same today is wrong and error. Do you stand during service or do you have a place to sit if you choose to? Do you have heat in the winter and AC in the summer? Do you hold candles or do you have lighting? Does your pastor pay for everything or is God just grateful for the few $ one throw's in the plate when one makes 60 K a year?

Please tell me I want to know?

 

[Dino246]

There is no command to give, yet Jesus said to give. I guess when Jesus says to do something we should not take it as a command?

I am glad you are against what the Bible teaches about giving yet, it is normative. Tithing is not confusing it is as simple as giving.

it is not dragging old into something. Giving is well established in the Word of God.

Do you give to the church you attend? Or do you even go to church? All that was given was done to ensure the Work of the Lord continued as it was then in the Old Testament so it is today. Nothing has changed

To suggest that is not the same today is wrong and error. Do you stand during service or do you have a place to sit if you choose to? Do you have heat in the winter and AC in the summer? Do you hold candles or do you have lighting? Does your pastor pay for everything or is God just grateful for the few $ one throw's in the plate when one makes 60 K a year?

Please tell me I want to know?

You are conflating giving with tithing and making assumptions. Re-read my posts in this thread.

 

[CS1]

You are conflating giving with tithing and making assumptions. Re-read my posts in this thread.

Nope they are both forms of giving

 

[PaulChristensen]

I'm not really sure what you're asking. Do you mean is there a problem with being a pastor and flying in a private jet?

Those two factors isolated by themselves: no problem.

I mean, the Bible says a lot about what the love of money and wealth can do to people. I think they are more like guidelines and no hard commandments to take a vow of poverty.

Excess money can probably agitate our carnal nature into sin, but not always and without exception.

Money itself is not evil. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil

Like many things, it isn't the appearance that matters to God, it's the state of the heart as to why we do them.

Should we pray in front of others? Not to receive praise from them. Should we pray in front of others for the purpose of giving glory to God? Yes.

Should we do good deeds in sight of others to impress others? No. Should we do good deeds in sight of others because we love God? Yes.

Can a person have a lot of material possessions and be corrupted by them? Yep. Can a person have a lot of material possessions and not be corrupted by them? Yep

I know of an international ministry preacher who insisted on flying commercial because it gave him opportunity to share the Gospel with passengers who sat beside him. As a result, he had many interesting encounters with a range of different people.

 

[Dino246]

Nope they are both forms of giving

They are not the same thing though. Tithing, with the sole exception of Abraham to Melchizedek, was always compulsory. In contrast, giving is voluntary.

If you think they are the same thing, then explain why 'the tithe belongs to the Lord' under the Law (Lev. 27:30), but under the new covenant, Paul says, "Each one must do just as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion"? You can rebel against a command, but if you are free to determine what you give, then there is no command to give a certain portion.

It can't be both.

 

[CS1]

They are not the same thing though. Tithing, with the sole exception of Abraham to Melchizedek, was always compulsory. In contrast, giving is voluntary.

If you think they are the same thing, then explain why 'the tithe belongs to the Lord' under the Law (Lev. 27:30), but under the new covenant, Paul says, "Each one must do just as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion"? You can rebel against a command, but if you are free to determine what you give, then there is no command to give a certain portion.

It can't be both.

yes they are

 

[Dino246]

yes they are

Yours is exactly the confusion I want to prevent in others.

You say that giving and tithing are the same thing. So, given that "tithe" means "tenth", and only "tenth", can a person "give" 3% and rightly call it a "tithe"? Can a person "give" 7% and rightly call it a "tithe"? What about 9.8%? Or 11%? Maybe 15.6%?

And... 'X' percent of what? Net income after taxes? Gross income? Income plus medical benefits? How much is that dental checkup for your kid worth... the one paid for by your employer's medical insurer? Did you tithe on that? Or maybe you exclude the money that you know you'll give to another cause, and give 'X' percent on the remainder?

You call it "simple" so surely you must have answers for these questions.

No; it's not simple, and that's irrelevant, because Christians are not commanded, required, or even encouraged to tithe. They are encouraged to give... neither some percentage, nor some specific amount, but as each has determined in his or her heart.

Instead of arguing, or walking away with a smug attitude and deprecating thoughts about me, THINK about this. FIND in Scripture the command given to Christians to "tithe" (not merely "give"). EXAMINE your beliefs in light of what Scripture actually says. Then, having done your homework, SHOW me where (you think) I'm wrong with evidence more substantial than "yes, they are".

 

[CS1]

Yours is exactly the confusion I want to prevent in others.

You say that giving and tithing are the same thing. So, given that "tithe" means "tenth", and only "tenth", can a person "give" 3% and rightly call it a "tithe"? Can a person "give" 7% and rightly call it a "tithe"? What about 9.8%? Or 11%? Maybe 15.6%?

And... 'X' percent of what? Net income after taxes? Gross income? Income plus medical benefits? How much is that dental checkup for your kid worth... the one paid for by your employer's medical insurer? Did you tithe on that? Or maybe you exclude the money that you know you'll give to another cause, and give 'X' percent on the remainder?

You call it "simple" so surely you must have answers for these questions.

No; it's not simple, and that's irrelevant, because Christians are not commanded, required, or even encouraged to tithe. They are encouraged to give... neither some percentage, nor some specific amount, but as each has determined in his or her heart.

Instead of arguing, or walking away with a smug attitude and deprecating thoughts about me, THINK about this. FIND in Scripture the command given to Christians to "tithe" (not merely "give"). EXAMINE your beliefs in light of what Scripture actually says. Then, having done your homework, SHOW me where (you think) I'm wrong with evidence more substantial than "yes, they are".

Please leave me alone. You are not able to help in the correcting of confusion you are creating for others.

 

[PaulChristensen]

yes they are

No, they are not.

 

[Dino246]

Please leave me alone. You are not able to help in the correcting of confusion you are creating for others.

Don't whine; step up with EVIDENCE.

 

[CS1]

Don't whine; step up with EVIDENCE.

you don't agree with the evidence.

There is no command to give, yet Jesus said to give. I guess when Jesus says to do something we should not take it as a command?

I am glad you are against what the Bible teaches about giving yet, it is normative.

Tithing is not confusing it is as simple as giving.

it is not dragging old into something. Giving is well established in the Word of God.

Do you give to the church you attend? Or do you even go to church? All that was given was done to ensure the Work of the Lord continued as it was then in the Old Testament so it is today. Nothing has changed

To suggest that is not the same today is wrong and error. Do you stand during service or do you have a place to sit if you choose to?

Do you hold candles or do you have lighting?
Does your pastor pay for everything or is God just grateful for the few $ one throw's in the plate when one makes 60 K a year?

Please tell me I want to know?

 

[Dino246]

you don't agree with the evidence.

There is no command to give, yet Jesus said to give. I guess when Jesus says to do something we should not take it as a command?

I am glad you are against what the Bible teaches about giving yet, it is normative.

Tithing is not confusing it is as simple as giving.

it is not dragging old into something. Giving is well established in the Word of God.

Do you give to the church you attend? Or do you even go to church? All that was given was done to ensure the Work of the Lord continued as it was then in the Old Testament so it is today. Nothing has changed

To suggest that is not the same today is wrong and error. Do you stand during service or do you have a place to sit if you choose to?

Do you hold candles or do you have lighting?
Does your pastor pay for everything or is God just grateful for the few $ one throw's in the plate when one makes 60 K a year?

Please tell me I want to know?

NONE of that is evidence; it is questions, opinions and blather.