Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I would like some thoughts on 1 John 5:3-4...

“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”

Could this mean that God’s commandments are a joy and delight to the Christian? For example that when we follow Jesus we find joy in that?

Look at it like this

the Bible speaks of a dog who returns to his vomit

a dog eats his vomit because it must taste god, it’s enjoyable, of course vomit represents sin, they love sin and hate righteousness because they hate the taste

a believer has been transformed into a new creation, they no longer like their vomit and righteousness taste good, because it is their new self,

that’s the point of the saying, the dog returned to what he loved, because he was always a dog. He was not changed, he went through the motions of being a christian but in the end left and returned to sin, because that’s what he was, the new life did not taste good, so he left,

 

[Phoneman-777]

If the husband got upset about his wife's infidelity, she could just remind him about OMAM and all would be hunky-dory.

What is to the carefree whoremonger an unbearable curse, the groom finds in marriage to his bride the pinnacle of life's joy.

I bet if you poll all the married OSAS believers, not a single one of them was thinking about how to deal with "inevitable infidelity issues" when they were up there saying "I do". Not only were they glad to vow fidelity to each other, they looked forward to practicing the vow and despised the thought of breaking it.

Bu,t with God....

 

[Evmur]

Salvation is not based on good works, but it is based upon faithfulness. A good marriage is the picture of this. The wedding is not the end of the story. It takes fidelity and commitment and faithfulness on both sides, not just God's side.

As sure and true as this seems to the human mind it is not true

... it only depends upon God's faithfulness

... else how could any of us be saved?

 

[Evmur]

God knows we are not capable of perfection, but He also knows we are capable of repenting when we err. We are capable of daily surrender and cross bearing. That is why He commands it...

Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Salvation is a free gift , discipleship is costly

 

[Guojing]

Salvation is a free gift , discipleship is costly

I would rather say salvation is a free gift but rewards come from works.

 

[Evmur]

I would rather say salvation is a free gift but rewards come from works.

'slong as they is God's works

 

[Phoneman-777]

because he was always a dog. He was not changed, he went through the motions of being a christian but in the end left and returned to sin, because that’s what he was, the new life did not taste good, so he left,

You're conclusions are false for these two reasons:

1) A person can't be simultaneously "escaped" and "entangled" any more than a woman can be simultaneously pregnant and not pregnant, so your claim these people were "never changed" is total bulldookey.

2 The dog and sow are part of a Hebrew Chiasm, a form of Hebrew poetry in which ideas -- not words -- are rhymed...which means there's a parallelism between the dog and sow.

The "washed" sow presents to us a change from it's wretched state in the mire to a risen, ennobled stature -- and the Chiasm demands the same experience apply to the dog - he went from eating vomit to an obviously more nutritious, wholesome diet.

When you stop trusting in that illegit OSAS License to Sin, you'll accept Jesus' words that saved, blood-washed, heaven-bound saints who kill their agape cold and dead through the practice of iniquity will not "endure unto the end" and will be lost.

 

[Phoneman-777]

...but rewards come from works.

I can show you where "works" are the evidence that one is saved, and the lack thereof is evidence one is bound for hell:

"Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:3-4 KJV

Is this correct, or is there another way to interpret this verse?

 

[CherieR]

I can show you where "works" are the evidence that one is saved, and the lack thereof is evidence one is bound for hell:

"Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:3-4 KJV

Is this correct, or is there another way to interpret this verse?

I am thinking keep in this sense could also mean observe the commandments. So, it isn’t about perfection.

I am open to thoughts on this. I don’t know Greek.

 

[Phoneman-777]

As sure and true as this seems to the human mind it is not true

... it only depends upon God's faithfulness

... else how could any of us be saved?

Salvation is only to those who repent and surrender -- and only those who want to make provision for continuing in sin require a OSAS License to Sin.

 

[tribesman]

I would like some thoughts on 1 John 5:3-4...

“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”

Could this mean that God’s commandments are a joy and delight to the Christian? For example that when we follow Jesus we find joy in that?

Positive.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're conclusions are false for these two reasons:

1) A person can't be simultaneously "escaped" and "entangled" any more than a woman can be simultaneously pregnant and not pregnant, so your claim these people were "never changed" is total bulldookey.

2 The dog and sow are part of a Hebrew Chiasm, a form of Hebrew poetry in which ideas -- not words -- are rhymed...which means there's a parallelism between the dog and sow.

The "washed" sow presents to us a change from it's wretched state in the mire to a risen, ennobled stature -- and the Chiasm demands the same experience apply to the dog - he went from eating vomit to an obviously more nutritious, wholesome diet.

When you stop trusting in that illegit OSAS License to Sin, you'll accept Jesus' words that saved, blood-washed, heaven-bound saints who kill their agape cold and dead through the practice of iniquity will not "endure unto the end" and will be lost.

It’s a waste of time trying to explain spiritual truths to you, your hatred of a doctrine has blinded you to truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am thinking keep in this sense could also mean observe the commandments. So, it isn’t about perfection.

I am open to thoughts on this. I don’t know Greek.

I use it with 1 john where John says he who sins has never seen or known God, whoever is born of God can’t sin.

by practice, those born of God keep his commands (although not perfectly)

by practice, those who sin (do not keep commands) have never known or seen God,

 

[Phoneman-777]

I am thinking keep in this sense could also mean observe the commandments. So, it isn’t about perfection.

I am open to thoughts on this. I don’t know Greek.

What's the hard part? The text is so plain, even a child can understand. We know that we know Jesus if we're keeping His law because "the carnal mind...is not subject to the law", and we are lying if we say we know Jesus but continue in commandment breaking.

IOW, the sinner has no hope of keeping the law because he has no indwelling power of the Savior to keep it, while the saint has no excuse for breaking the law because victory over all sin and temptation is guaranteed.

For the saint, it's not a matter of skill, but the will.

 

[Phoneman-777]

It’s a waste of time trying to explain spiritual truths to you, your hatred of a doctrine has blinded you to truth.

Spiritual Truths do not include your OSAS License to Sin any more than marriage vows contain provisions for either the bride or groom to whore around.

 

[CherieR]

What's the hard part? The text is so plain, even a child can understand. We know that we know Jesus if we're keeping His law because "the carnal mind...is not subject to the law", and we are lying if we say we know Jesus but continue in commandment breaking.

IOW, the sinner has no hope of keeping the law because he has no indwelling power of the Savior to keep it, while the saint has no excuse for breaking the law because victory over all sin and temptation is guaranteed.

For the saint, it's not a matter of skill, but the will.

Except what you seem to be implying is close to perfectionism. Where then is the dividing line where you fell from his commands to far since all sin?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Except what you seem to be implying is close to perfectionism. Where then is the dividing line where you fell from his commands to far since all sin?

He screams about a license to sin and OSAS. While giving himself a license by claiming he does not have to be perfect himself

the dividing line in scripture is perfection, paul tells us all have sinned and fall short of that line, yet in the same passage, paul said us sinners are justified freely by the redemptive prince Christ paid on the cross,

those who mock grace mock the cross. Their reward will be just

 

[oyster67]

Because God said he who began a good work will complete it

because God said we have been given the spirit as a seal

because God said he will never leave nor forsake us,

because god said if one of his sheep leaves he will leave the whole flock to go find that lost sheep, and the sheep hears his voice and returns,

because God said he will chasten those who are his,

because God said he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified

because god said whoever believes in him will not be put to shame

because God said whoever eats the bread from heaven will never hunger, will never die, will live forever has eternal life and his assurance he will raise them on the last day,

because God said we have been given every spiritual blessing in Christ the moment we hear the word of truth the gospel of our salvation, and entrusted our eternity to him

because God said whoever walked away in unbelief is an antichrist, and never was part of the church, if they were, they never would have left

i can go on and on and on,

if one can leave and surrender salvation and end up in hell after being born again, adopted and given the spirit, then all the things I just mentioned are lies, and God failed,

I think we all agree that no one can kidnap us or steal us out of the hand of God, but I am addressing the fact that we must abide in the vine and not voluntarily walk away from Him. You will simply insist that such a person was not saved in the first place. You write your own dictionaries and completely ignore the true meanings of words like "apostate". Not much I can say to people who go to those lengths to forge their own doctrines.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think we all agree that no one can kidnap us or steal us out of the hand of God, but I am addressing the fact that we must abide in the vine and not voluntarily walk away from Him. You will simply insist that such a person was not saved in the first place. You write your own dictionaries and completely ignore the true meanings of words like "apostate". Not much I can say to people who go to those lengths to forge their own doctrines.

If I can walk away from him then all those passages I showed are meaningless
that was my point

 

[oyster67]

Yes he does,

but if this is required for salvation, then we are basically under law, you better get those animal sacrifices started, because Jesus died once for all, and if you cant have faith in that, all you have left is the law,

I completely agree that salvation is by faith and not works.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.