Pre Christian Gods

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dubbaz
  • Start date Start date
  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D

Dubbaz

Guest
Hey, ive always been curious as to what the bibles stance on pre christian gods is. Especially things like norse and celtic paganism. They predate christianity so what happens to these people before christ who were unaware of their ways and judged as bad people. And/or why are they any less credible if not more credible than the bible?
 
Joshua 5
The Commander of the Army of the LORD

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.”
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”
15 Then the Commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.


This is old testament, way before Jesus was born. No angel asks to be worshipped, apart from satan and his followers. Any angel that serves God always tells whoever tries to worship them to stand up and worship God. The Commander of the LORD's army is none other than Jesus Christ Himself. He is the Eternal Almighty God and Creator.

Genesis 1:26

Then God said, “Let US make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Notice God said let US, not let Me. This clearly shows the trinity of God, which is Father, Son and, Holy Spirit. He is One in 3 and 3 in one.

John 1

The Eternal Word

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is Jesus Christ Himself.

Revelation 1:17-18

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

He lives? Yes He has lived forever. He was once dead? Yes, He was nailed to the cross for all humanity. He is alive forevermore? Yes, because He will reign forever.


What do I think of pre-christian gods?
They are dead, none of them ever came down to earth, lived among His creation, gave His own life for His own Creation, died and rose again.
 
John 8:56 (New King James Version)

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Abraham was mentioned back in Genesis by the way, and when He was gonna sacrifice isaac He told Him God would provide Himself a lamb, which is Jesus.

Ohh and about celtic paganism. Hmm well clearly those practices are morally wrong, because they obviously practiced witchcraft and many other abominable things that are harmful or immoral to any human being. They clearly do not reflect the same moral order of the word of God.

And about the credibility of the bible, it's the most accurate prophetic, archeological, and source-wise written book in all history.
 
Hey, ive always been curious as to what the bibles stance on pre christian gods is. Especially things like norse and celtic paganism. They predate christianity so what happens to these people before christ who were unaware of their ways and judged as bad people. And/or why are they any less credible if not more credible than the bible?

I've often wondered this myself.
 
"And about the credibility of the bible, it's the most accurate prophetic, archeological, and source-wise written book in all history. " Well there are so many different versions of the bible each with its own little twist, how can you say its accurate, which edition are you referencing? Celctic paganism does not involve witchcraft, it was about the elemnts of the eart primarily nature, and giving back to it what we have taken from it. Im not trying to start any arguments but i really would like to see somebody put forward a logical argument instead of quoting irrelevant scriptures and labeling all things not "God" as witchcraft or abominable.

Also in norse paganism there are two sides the Aesir and the Vanir. The aesir are your basic "good guys" and the vanir are the "bad guys" depending on which side you view it from. They basically have a huge battle called ragnarök and alot of people die odin rides down from the sky and summons the surtur. And he just dishes out judgement everywhere, how does this differentiate from the crusades? Other than the crusades were real and norse paganism is mythological?
 
"And about the credibility of the bible, it's the most accurate prophetic, archeological, and source-wise written book in all history. " Well there are so many different versions of the bible each with its own little twist, how can you say its accurate, which edition are you referencing?
How much do they really differ? What are these "twists" that each possess?

These "editions" are just different translations of the same select few manuscripts. The only serious differences are...

1) language written in
2) style within the language (I.E. KJV uses old english, NIV uses a newer english form)



Celctic paganism does not involve witchcraft, it was about the elemnts of the eart primarily nature, and giving back to it what we have taken from it. Im not trying to start any arguments but i really would like to see somebody put forward a logical argument instead of quoting irrelevant scriptures and labeling all things not "God" as witchcraft or abominable.
I would argue that any polytheistic system begins to fall apart with the existance of multiple gods. (I.E. ontological arguement)

Also in norse paganism there are two sides the Aesir and the Vanir. The aesir are your basic "good guys" and the vanir are the "bad guys" depending on which side you view it from. They basically have a huge battle called ragnarök and alot of people die odin rides down from the sky and summons the surtur. And he just dishes out judgement everywhere, how does this differentiate from the crusades? Other than the crusades were real and norse paganism is mythological?
Interesting to bring up morality with polytheism. Easy enough getting morality from one God.... How do you determine which is correct in a polytheistic system?


I would probably argue against many of the internal claims about the external when it comes to pagan systems.
 
Different Versions?:
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_English_Bible_translations
You will find close to 200 different versions there, rewording a few of these easily changes the meanings of the passage.

Also in a polytheistic situation which i will use norse paganism as i am very familiar with it.
There is not inter arguing amongst the aesir. There is only a rivalry and angst between the aesir and vanir. The two groups of gods. The vanir are fought off the aesir are the teachers, and ones worthy of worship. Odin is the oldest and most mighty god. Therefore it is his rule over all. Odin is also the god of war, wisdom and death. There are many gods that cover all aspects of life, verging from ntarure, to poetry and philosophy. The gods are the gods of their area. The aesir are a council of gods. There is no competition or arguing of which god is right and wrong. It is not as if each indiviudal god has its own take on how everything sould be run.
 
Different Versions?:
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_English_Bible_translations
You will find close to 200 different versions there, rewording a few of these easily changes the meanings of the passage.
Rewording is different from translating.

The only rewording I am aware of is the NWT. Which I do not consider to be a bible.

Could you provide some examples of how the basic message of a verse is changed?


Also in a polytheistic situation which i will use norse paganism as i am very familiar with it.
There is not inter arguing amongst the aesir. There is only a rivalry and angst between the aesir and vanir. The two groups of gods. The vanir are fought off the aesir are the teachers, and ones worthy of worship. Odin is the oldest and most mighty god. Therefore it is his rule over all. Odin is also the god of war, wisdom and death. There are many gods that cover all aspects of life, verging from ntarure, to poetry and philosophy. The gods are the gods of their area. The aesir are a council of gods. There is no competition or arguing of which god is right and wrong. It is not as if each indiviudal god has its own take on how everything sould be run.

You state that the aesir are worthy of worship, but what makes them worthy of worship? Which god is morality grounded in?
 
They are a council fighting for morality against an immoral society of gods the vanir, who were gods of promiscuity, and sorcery. In the end of the aesir-vanir war it ended in the two groups merging and the sorcerers and lustful being cast out of the vanir and the other gods of wisdom and fertility became a subgroup of the aesir. The aesir fought for honor, and justice against an immoral group of gods taking advantage of people and their worldy desires and vices.
 
Pagan gods came after our God, they wanted to worship idol which was wrong as well.
 
Interesting to bring up morality with polytheism. Easy enough getting morality from one God.... How do you determine which is correct in a polytheistic system?

It's worth keeping in mind that the an argument concerning a single correct system of morality contains an assumption or preference. The lack of such a system (or the lack of ease in obtaining knowledge of it) is not necessarily something a polytheist would feel the need to respond to. Christians don't feel the need to respond to, for instance, the charge that Christianity doesn't tell them the right way to cook spaghetti, but they wouldn't say it's a fault of Christianity - they'd say it's irrelevant and wonder what you're on about.

A polytheist could along the same lines wonder why we're seeking a single correct system of morality. When, precisely, was this promised to us? Moreover, why should we expect it to be easily understood? Looking at the universe without the lens of a particular religion, it seems as though morality is meant to be hard, since there are so many ambiguous cases, even with the lens of a particular religion. Not a few philosophers have suggested that the purpose of life is to find a sufficient moral system.

This is especially true in historical polytheism, where the gods are not necessarily meant to personify the best possible. The early Greek atheists quite rightly pointed out that some of the gods were not worthy of worship, since some humans were obviously more virtuous (by any reasonable person's definition) than a philandering or murderous deity. In that case again, why are we looking at the gods for morality? When was it promised to us that a god will be the source? At best, polytheists said, a person should understand how to act so as not to anger particular gods, but this has nothing to do with some universal code.

(In fact, this is the way the large majority of Christians live in practice. I have noticed that the concern is not over the inherent correctness of an action, whatever this is supposed to mean, but the possibility that it will incur wrath if not simply hell.)

In the end, I would suggest that the idea of a revealed morality, both unambiguous and easily understood, is mostly a canard. Having observed conversations from all sorts of philosophies and faiths, the debates are always the same - there are a number of axioms and there is philosophical generalization. None of these axioms are self-evident, even if they happen to be contained in old books. The decision to take as axiomatic the Bible doesn't seem to be any more interesting than taking as axiomatic another text.
 
How should one address the claims of this video?
YouTube - ‪Zeitgeist [Religion] The Greatest Story Ever Sold (1of 3)‬‏

The video claims that Jesus was based on Pagan gods and that Christianity is a copycat religion.
Are there any sources that prove otherwise and aren't Christian biased?
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to find as far as counter-sources. Everything is biased. Even Zeitgiest is. Anytime anyone argues for or against anything, there will be bias for their position.


You've not listed any specific issue you would like to discuss, so I will provide counter-information from other webpages.

Starting with some of the most comprehensive, ending with some of the least comprehensive.

copycat <--- click
http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html <--- click
Investigating the Similarities between Jesus and Pagan Figures <--- click
All About Horus: An Egyptian Copy of Christ? Response to Zeitgeist movie <--- click
Acharya S, Christ Conspiracy, critical review <--- click
Consider Christianity - A Faith Based on Facts <--- click
Jesus a copycat savior? - A Christian response <--- click
Osiris. Horus. Jesus. Not Triplets! <--- click
Luxor Inscription - Brunner's Gottkoenigs & the Nativity of Jesus: A Brief Communication <--- click
answeringinfidels.com <--- click
Is Jesus Simply a Retelling of the Mithras Myth? <--- click
Zeitgeist: Analysis and Response <--- click
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/pagint.html <--- click
Stand to Reason: The Zeitgeist Movie & Other Myth Claims about Jesus <--- click
Debunking the Jesus-Mithra Myth | epologetics <--- click
"Zeitgeist" Online Movie: Part One Refuted <--- click
Zeitgeist the Movie and the Earliest Christians <--- click
 
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to find as far as counter-sources. Everything is biased. Even Zeitgiest is. Anytime anyone argues for or against anything, there will be bias for their position.


You've not listed any specific issue you would like to discuss, so I will provide counter-information from other webpages.

Starting with some of the most comprehensive, ending with some of the least comprehensive.

copycat <--- click
http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html <--- click
Investigating the Similarities between Jesus and Pagan Figures <--- click
All About Horus: An Egyptian Copy of Christ? Response to Zeitgeist movie <--- click
Acharya S, Christ Conspiracy, critical review <--- click
Consider Christianity - A Faith Based on Facts <--- click
Jesus a copycat savior? - A Christian response <--- click
Osiris. Horus. Jesus. Not Triplets! <--- click
Luxor Inscription - Brunner's Gottkoenigs & the Nativity of Jesus: A Brief Communication <--- click
answeringinfidels.com <--- click
Is Jesus Simply a Retelling of the Mithras Myth? <--- click
Zeitgeist: Analysis and Response <--- click
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/pagint.html <--- click
Stand to Reason: The Zeitgeist Movie & Other Myth Claims about Jesus <--- click
Debunking the Jesus-Mithra Myth | epologetics <--- click
"Zeitgeist" Online Movie: Part One Refuted <--- click
Zeitgeist the Movie and the Earliest Christians <--- click

Thanks but I guess I meant "How do we know who is telling the truth non-biased?" One group of people say Jesus was based on Mithra and other pagan religions then the other group say that there were no similarities. How do I know which one is true? Obviously one has to be true and one false and I would like to know which one is which.
 
Last edited:
Thanks but I guess I meant "How do we know who is telling the truth non-biased?" One group of people say Jesus was based on Mithra and other pagan religions then the other group say that there were no similarities. How do I know which one is true? Obviously one has to be true and one false and I would like to know which one is which.
I can tell you my conclusions based on what I know, but the question you asked could be asked of me.

I suggest you study.
 
Jimmy,

Has there been an explanation of what Justin Martyr meant by these quotes? Thanks.

"He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you believe of Perseus." [Justin Martyr, First Apology, 22]

When we say that Jesus Christ was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call the sons of Jupiter."
- Justin Martyr, church father [21:30]
 
Jimmy,

Has there been an explanation of what Justin Martyr meant by these quotes? Thanks.
I don't know a lot about Justin Martyr, but I do know he was an early apologist. Often old arguments carry on through the ages.




"He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you believe of Perseus." [Justin Martyr, First Apology, 22]

When we say that Jesus Christ was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call the sons of Jupiter."
- Justin Martyr, church father [21:30]
What I suspect the case to be with these, is that someone said they believed it was nonsense/illogical to believe Christ resurrected. I imagine his response was, "So, you believe the same about Perseus/sons of Jupitor."


I don't know much off the top of my head about perseus or te sons of Jupitor. Just taking a guess. I'll look into perseus and the sons of Jupitor later this evening, as I have business to attain to here in 30 minutes for about two hours.