Addressing Sin Without Alienation.

[Roughsoul1991]

In the book Waking Up, Alive Psychology professor Heckler interviewed 50 attempted suicides for this study of the process of emotional recovery in those who have attempted to kill themselves.

The book lists many reasons for the descent into what the book calls the suicidal trance. But one reason is being a cultural outcast or being alienated by others or self.

One example is the LGBT community who has a 3x higher rate of suicide. Of course, this is only one factor of alienation.

A complex combination of factors can impact youth health outcomes. LGB youth are at greater risk for depression, suicide, substance use, and sexual behaviors that can place them at increased risk for HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).3 Nearly one-third (29%) of LGB youth had attempted suicide at least once in the prior year compared to 6% of heterosexual youth.
- CDC Kann L, Olsen EO, McManus T, et al. Sexual Identity, Sex of Sexual Contacts, and Health-Related Behaviors Among Students in Grades 9-12 – United States and Selected Sites, 2015. MMWR Surveill Summ 2016; 65(9): 1-202.

So let us discuss the most productive ways to speak on sin but not be a contributing factor towards those who feel suicide may be their best option.

 

[Platosgal]

I went to a church in Hollywood in the late 1990's
It had mostly runaway teens and lots of homeless, outcasts etc

What happened was we never addressed the " Sinner" or the " Sin,
We just read the bible out loud and sang praise songs, and prayed, lots and lots of prayers

Interesting thing happened
A lot of people came and went and
Got excited then lost interest
But a lot if us were convicted
Really convicted and began to change
Turn from our old ways and try God's way.
It was not perfect but there was a season when God dealt witb each individual to a great result

I can't say that the lack of experienced leadership was valuable
I just know that if we "Confronted"
Anyone in that specific church directly about their sin - it may not have been well received.

Everyone knows what sin is
Co- signing it and justifying it is not what we did then
We just read the bible- out loud
And prayed
God did the convicting and regeneration

 

[SophieT]

I would not address the sin directly either. I think a person in an atmosphere of true worship and biblical truth will respond one way or another.

I basically agree with the above post but not closed to discussion

 

[Live4Him]

In my estimation, church is definitely a place where sin ought to be directly addressed.

For example, while explaining to the church at Corinth the supremacy of prophesying over speaking in tongues, Paul said:

I Corinthians chapter 14

[23] If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
[24] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
[25] And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Openly manifesting sin is actually a proof that God is truly in a church. Of course, the purpose of making manifest the sins of others is NOT to beat them to a pulp afterwards, but rather to try to lead them back to God through Christ via repentance and the new birth.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I think we should spend more time teaching the Bible for what it says. The Bible covers sin and righteousness and mercy and grace. If we let the Holy Spirit speak from the word he provided rather than try to make up messages to preach, we will do well.
In my church every Sunday we have an old testament reading, an epistle reading and a gospel reading. The focus was on forgiveness of sin through Jesus and his sacrifice.

 

[seoulsearch]

I went to a church in Hollywood in the late 1990's
It had mostly runaway teens and lots of homeless, outcasts etc

What happened was we never addressed the " Sinner" or the " Sin,
We just read the bible out loud and sang praise songs, and prayed, lots and lots of prayers

Interesting thing happened
A lot of people came and went and
Got excited then lost interest
But a lot if us were convicted
Really convicted and began to change
Turn from our old ways and try God's way.
It was not perfect but there was a season when God dealt witb each individual to a great result

I can't say that the lack of experienced leadership was valuable
I just know that if we "Confronted"
Anyone in that specific church directly about their sin - it may not have been well received.

Everyone knows what sin is
Co- signing it and justifying it is not what we did then
We just read the bible- out loud
And prayed
God did the convicting and regeneration

This is a really great thread, @Roughsoul1991.

@Platosgal, I really enjoyed the honesty of your post, including the reality that some people just came and went. I also liked the point @Live4Him made about the need for confronting sin in the church.

I might be wrong for this, but I very rarely feel that I am to blatantly convict someone of sin by myself. Rather, I always feel a pull to try to encourage them into Christ-centered atmospheres on a regular basis, with the assumption that the closer they got to God, He Himself would personally convict them (and yes, sometimes use people to do it.)

A while back, I was going through a very rough time in my life because my former husband had left for a girlfriend, and I wasn't dealing well with being rejected and replaced. I threw myself into work and church activities, until God planted me in an area and started to direct my energies towards my co-workers instead.

Long story short, God put it on my heart to start inviting them to church. As one can imagine, some accepted, some did not. Two eventually wound up joining the church, but it was a process. In the meantime, God prompted me to do things like take their kids to church when the parents had to work, and attend the new membership classes as well as be initiated alongside a co-worker as if I were a new member (I'd already been a member for years at that point.) She was taking small, but steady steps in faith and didn't want to do these things alone, so God told me to go with her. All the energy I had formerly put into being married, God was using in this way.

The biggest lesson for me was when one person in particular, out of the blue, told me, "Seoul, I've been thinking about it, and I'm going to stop (sinful behavior) and (make a Godly decision instead.)"

I was floored, because, while we'd had several conversations about life, I'd never strictly confronted this person -- due in large part to the fact that God will also convict me of my own sins as well. He keeps me on an even playing field, so if I talk to someone personally, one-to-one and in private about their sins, God convicts me if that I have to answer honestly about my own sins if that person should ask. Now, this is just what God does with me -- I'm certainly not trying to say how He works with others.

So back to the person in the story - this person had made a decision to change all on their own, without me or anyone in the church confronting them. Rather, God had done it Himself, and as soon as the person finished saying something, God used it to convict ME of something in my life as well (though it remained unspoken because the person didn't ask me about my own sin -- they were already several steps ahead of me, in that their concern was their own repentance, and not trying to get me to repent.)

I read an article once that said we never know how many steps it may take for someone to turn to Christ. Maybe they need 17 steps and your presence in their life is step 3, so I try to remember to ask God to keep me from trying to rush someone through their steps.

I also believe that maybe we can actually love a person into conviction -- Have you ever had an instance in your life when you knew you were doing something wrong or just taking it out on everyone around you, but someone hung in there and still loved you anyways? And eventually, maybe it caused you to break down in tears and ask, "WHY and HOW can you still love me? Ok, God, I'm ready to do what it takes for you to change me."

I know this approach won't work for everyone and I know some people will never choose Christ, but in my own life, God seems to ask me to try my best to be there for someone and encourage them to take small steps, and then He takes it from there.

I love hearing about everyone else's experiences.

Thanks again, @Roughsoul1991, for such a thought-provoking thread.

 

[Runningman]

If someone asks if a specific thing is a sin I'll give them a yes or no answer based off of what the Bible says.

A lot of times these questions are just dropped on us on the fly, drive-by style, with no intent to stick around to be discipled. We often get 5 minutes or less to make an impression that'll possibly impact them for the rest of their life.

While I can see how you don't want to alienate anyone, I imagine you also do not want to enable/validate a pet sin.

What I have found effective is saying that everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and that God commands every person on Earth to repent.

So I try not to put any one particular sin on a pedestal because repentance is about a change of heart/mind not sinless perfection. This is is where God's grace comes in.

 

[GardenofWeeden]

I don't think it's my place to address sin in other people's lives. That is between them and God, and unless they specifically ask my opinion on it, I won't even acknowledge it. I have enough sin and short comings in my own life to be pointing out my opinion of flaws in others'. My job is to spread the love of God, by exhibiting that to others, and by showing them Christ working in my life. I fail often, but I keep pluggin. When God is ready He leads them to ask me questions usually, and the opens the lines to my being able to tell them about Christ, His sacrifice and what that means in my life, as well as, what that can mean in their lives. From there it's up to the other person and God.
But that's just me. Peace.

 

[Lanolin]

You COULD be a nag, but usually that isnt well received.
Or you could do what God does ..He loved us while we were yet sinners.

 

[Lanolin]

why do people commit suicide, well let me tell you it wasnt because they were loved or felt loved. mostly it seems they attempt it or do it because someone in their life was nagging them about something. Does nagging help anyone?

Not in my book it just makes that person feel worse and want to disappear. I can tell you right now if someone did that to me and nagged me for every single sin they thought Id done Id be like it sounds like you dont want me around, Well I'll just leave.

Even David couldnt see his own sin which might have been staring him in the face (and the dead bodies to prove it) until Nathan told him a story about a stolen lamb.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

This is a really great thread, @Roughsoul1991.

@Platosgal, I really enjoyed the honesty of your post, including the reality that some people just came and went. I also liked the point @Live4Him made about the need for confronting sin in the church.

I might be wrong for this, but I very rarely feel that I am to blatantly convict someone of sin by myself. Rather, I always feel a pull to try to encourage them into Christ-centered atmospheres on a regular basis, with the assumption that the closer they got to God, He Himself would personally convict them (and yes, sometimes use people to do it.)

A while back, I was going through a very rough time in my life because my former husband had left for a girlfriend, and I wasn't dealing well with being rejected and replaced. I threw myself into work and church activities, until God planted me in an area and started to direct my energies towards my co-workers instead.

Long story short, God put it on my heart to start inviting them to church. As one can imagine, some accepted, some did not. Two eventually wound up joining the church, but it was a process. In the meantime, God prompted me to do things like take their kids to church when the parents had to work, and attend the new membership classes as well as be initiated alongside a co-worker as if I were a new member (I'd already been a member for years at that point.) She was taking small, but steady steps in faith and didn't want to do these things alone, so God told me to go with her. All the energy I had formerly put into being married, God was using in this way.

The biggest lesson for me was when one person in particular, out of the blue, told me, "Seoul, I've been thinking about it, and I'm going to stop (sinful behavior) and (make a Godly decision instead.)"

I was floored, because, while we'd had several conversations about life, I'd never strictly confronted this person -- due in large part to the fact that God will also convict me of my own sins as well. He keeps me on an even playing field, so if I talk to someone personally, one-to-one and in private about their sins, God convicts me if that I have to answer honestly about my own sins if that person should ask. Now, this is just what God does with me -- I'm certainly not trying to say how He works with others.

So back to the person in the story - this person had made a decision to change all on their own, without me or anyone in the church confronting them. Rather, God had done it Himself, and as soon as the person finished saying something, God used it to convict ME of something in my life as well (though it remained unspoken because the person didn't ask me about my own sin -- they were already several steps ahead of me, in that their concern was their own repentance, and not trying to get me to repent.)

I read an article once that said we never know how many steps it may take for someone to turn to Christ. Maybe they need 17 steps and your presence in their life is step 3, so I try to remember to ask God to keep me from trying to rush someone through their steps.

I also believe that maybe we can actually love a person into conviction -- Have you ever had an instance in your life when you knew you were doing something wrong or just taking it out on everyone around you, but someone hung in there and still loved you anyways? And eventually, maybe it caused you to break down in tears and ask, "WHY and HOW can you still love me? Ok, God, I'm ready to do what it takes for you to change me."

I know this approach won't work for everyone and I know some people will never choose Christ, but in my own life, God seems to ask me to try my best to be there for someone and encourage them to take small steps, and then He takes it from there.

I love hearing about everyone else's experiences.

Thanks again, @Roughsoul1991, for such a thought-provoking thread.

Thank you and great testimony!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

why do people commit suicide, well let me tell you it wasnt because they were loved or felt loved. mostly it seems they attempt it or do it because someone in their life was nagging them about something. Does nagging help anyone?

Not in my book it just makes that person feel worse and want to disappear. I can tell you right now if someone did that to me and nagged me for every single sin they thought Id done Id be like it sounds like you dont want me around, Well I'll just leave.

Even David couldnt see his own sin which might have been staring him in the face (and the dead bodies to prove it) until Nathan told him a story about a stolen lamb.

Suicide often is the result of a metaphorical bleeding wound that the individual has failed or been failed by others to get help. It is often after unexpected traumatic experiences as like a child loses his father in a car crash. That pain is never healed and only leads to other problems, more disappointments, this discontent, depression, and if not addressed could lead to despair. A loss of hope. They may begin to fantasize about death and start to justify it. The descent into darkness as many described it. A zombie or tunnel vision state. The only voice they begin to hear is the voice telling them it is time to die. It is usually hidden behind a false image like the boy begins to break the law just to get noticed or an inner cry for help but the stresses of life have become so abundant, he can no longer see the path to escape it.

 

[GardenofWeeden]

At one time I could tell you many ways to commit suicide, and I attempted it twice. The reason wasn't someone nagging me or some bleeding wounds I had. It was my own selfishness that my problems were somehow worse than everyone else's. I was so self absorbed, that I didn't care about anyone else's pain but my own. I say this because everyone's problems and everyone's reasons are different. You can both be right.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Here are my thoughts. There needs to be a balance between both addressing sin and love. 1st Corinthians is Paul addressing the sins in the church. Example:

1 Corinthians 5:6-8
English Standard Version

6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

We also see Paul kick a man out for having sex with his mother-in-law. Eventually, they allow him back but not until he was ready to come back.

But obviously, this is church discipline which is expected in order to live out the holiness we are commanded to follow.

With evangelizing we can learn from Jesus in

Mark 2:13-17
New International Version

13 Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14 As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.

15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him.

16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Jesus knows the physical and spiritual ramifications of sin on a scale we could never comprehend. Jesus used every opportunity to teach from the Words of the OT while preparing a new covenant. The Mosaic law and the moral law only condemns. But it is of hearing we begin to feel the need for repentance and Jesus Christ.

We need to study how the early church evangelized and not be stuck in our cultural norms of church 2000+ years in the making. Have we changed for the better or worse?

There is a balance between love and truth. We are the salt and the light. Salt stings a little but it was needed to preserve/protect from decay. Where sin reigns we see decay. Where light shines, the darkness flees.

What we learn from Jesus was to establish relationships, good communication, and staying spiritually healthy. Jesus ate and drank with sinners giving Him time to speak to them. It was intentional. Jesus was a master at communication. And Jesus made sure to stay close to the Father.

Many of the lost are hurting and need healing. To help someone heal takes time and investment. It takes us doing good works that God has prepared. To practice both goodness and kindness. To be there where others will not go.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

At one time I could tell you many ways to commit suicide, and I attempted it twice. The reason wasn't someone nagging me or some bleeding wounds I had. It was my own selfishness that my problems were somehow worse than everyone else's. I was so self absorbed, that I didn't care about anyone else's pain but my own. I say this because everyone's problems and everyone's reasons are different. You can both be right.

You had a bleeding wound of pain.

 

[GardenofWeeden]

You had a bleeding wound of pain.

No. I had gallons of self centeredness. Once I stopped focusing on myself and started caring about others, my life changed. I guess you can call selfishness a bleeding wound if you want though. I call it sin.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don't think it's my place to address sin in other people's lives.

The Bible says that there are times when individual believers should address sins that they see in other believers (within the local church). There are also other times when the entire church must get involved. Both situations would apply to what is obvious, since no one can examine hearts other than God.

Then there is the issue of heresy and false doctrine (which also comes under the category of sin). There are instructions for dealing with that also within the church. As someone has already pointed out the end goal should be restoration.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The Bible says that there are times when individual believers should address sins that they see in other believers (within the local church). There are also other times when the entire church must get involved. Both situations would apply to what is obvious, since no one can examine hearts other than God.

Then there is the issue of heresy and false doctrine (which also comes under the category of sin). There are instructions for dealing with that also within the church. As someone has already pointed out the end goal should be restoration.

What about outside the church when around unbelievers?

 

[Nehemiah6]

What about outside the church when around unbelievers?

That is a non-issue. The Gospel is for sinners, correction is for saints.

 

[Lanolin]

People can rarely see outside of themselves and their own pain, what might seem small pain to someone else is not the same as a pain someone has to live with everyday.
Even the very people that nag are often actually thinking about THEMSELVES. Not the other person.

That is why Nathan told David the story about the lamb, and didnt at first go well you stole a married woman, got her preganant and killed her husband you dirty selfish sinner. Now what are you going to do about it?