Is the Holy Spirit showing us God can be anywhere and everywhere at the same time (Omnipresent|Omniscient)?

[Pilgrimshope]

NOT THE SAME THING. Read your Bible. Geez people.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit has come to be misrepresented as a doctrinal aberration invented by Pentacostals, a group which is about as Biblically confused as one can get. The secular origins of modern pentecostals grew out of the Holiness movement of the mid-19th century (at the same time as a number of other aberrations such as Mormonism, spiritualism/occultism, Dispensationalism, etc.).

Oddly the name Pentacostalism is derived from the Greek word describing the Jewish Festival of Weeks - Pentacost/Shavout , which is also an observance of the time God gave THE LAW to Moses. Strangely, pentecostal church types routinely deny the LAW upon which they base the name of their particular group. Confused? It gets better.

On that same calendar day, the Holy Spirit fell upon an assembly of Talmidim (Hebrew word for disciples) - 120 Jews, btw. The event is observed as the first time the Holy Spirit fell upon an assembly of average people. Previously, the Holy Anointing was reserved only for Levitical priests (kohanim), prophets or kings. Today the pentecostals believe their particular form of spiritual jitterbugging is representative of a blessing beyond and above salvation. They believe they alone have appropriated this second blessing. It isn't and they haven't. If you're still following me, keep reading.

Salvation is based upon the LAW, which they deny. Read Exodus & Leviticus.

No one can be saved apart from the LAW, which requires blood to be shed as payment for SIN. Prior to Jesus' day this bloodletting was accomplished by killing animals at the temple in Jerusalem. Different animals were sacrificed/offered at different times on different occasions - except for lambs. One is required BY THE LAW to come forward at the temple and to kill the animal with one's own hands at the altar. Going forward at a revival meeting to be saved is considered an appropriate act today. It's thought by pentecostals and evangelicals to be traditional by those who are really confused about the LAW - which requires THE SAME THING. But there was a problem with animal sacrifice. It was temporary because animals, like human SINners, are mortal. Therefore animal sacrifice had to be done constantly and continually. If you've ever cleaned out your back yard BBQ after a holiday you can appreciate how messy the job could have been. The LAW wasn't perfect because the sacrifices were mortal and temporary. Enter Jesus - the immortal God and perfect sacrifice. Because HE is immortal HE only had to die once, making the LAW's requirement perfect. Hence the writer of Hebrews 8:13 states the old law is passing away. The passage was written just prior to the demolition of the 2nd temple. Animal sacrifice was still going on when 8:13 was written. (Some scholars use this as evidence much of the NT was written at nearly the same time in history as Jesus' ministry - not centuries later.) But what's all this got to do with pentecost?

Ephesians 1:14 assures us that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is, "a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory". In Paul's second letter to the Corinthians he wrote in 1:22 that, "his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." Anyone who has made their peace with God and surrendered their will to Him will receive the indwelling Holy Spirit as evidence and proof of God's promise of immortal life. But what of the Holy Spirit? Why doesn't it bless humanity with a constant high - as Pentacostals claim it will? It doesn't, but they would have us believe they've got a special handle on the situation. They don't. John writes in 3:8 of his gospel about the nature of the Holy Spirit. "The wind blows wherever it pleases," John writes. "You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." Do Pentacostals experience the dramatic movement of the Holy Spirit within their lives at certain times? Certainly they do, but certainly also does everyone else who surrenders to Christ in truth and in spirit. One does not have to utter a loose tongue to prove it. That particular circus act is reserved for a specific community.

A few paragraphs earlier I wrote that animal sacrifices were abundantly required by the LAW of Moses. Several types and kinds of animals were to be brought by individuals for payment for their SINs - except lambs. Only the high priest (Kohan Gadol) would sacrifice a lamb, only once a year, and only within the Holy of Holies. Only the lamb was sacrificed. Its purpose was as a sacrifice for SIN for the priest & the entire nation, all the tribes of Israel, ALL AT ONCE. Thus Jesus Christ (Y'shuah ha-mashiach as His true name reads in Hebrew) had to die once and for all the people. (John 11:51) Jesus is the passover lamb (Mark 4:12 & Exodus 12) for all who accept Him and for all time. Perfect, unless you're a pentecostal and still confused. Please pick up your Bible and read it.

When a SINner confesses their SIN and repents of it (promise not to repeat it) and asks for forgiveness, God reciprocates by granting forgiveness AND immortal life. He doesn't need to provide proof of this, but in His mercy He does. This proof is in the form of the granting of the Holy Spirit to the new believer. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a special event chronicled in Mathew 3:13. At that time all three aspects of God were present; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That particular baptism was a unique one time special deal. Pentacostals cannot lay claim to exclusive rights to that point in history. They have enough problems trying to figure out the small tidbits of the Bible they do hear about.

Read the Bible. Learn something new every time.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:11-14‬ ‭

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-23‬ ‭

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”

the law can’t save and never has saved a single person it’s not capable of saving a sinner only condemning them . Look to the gospel the engrafted word for salvation

as you see above the law is meant to hold us guilty for our sins and the New Testament word that was grafted in is for saving those souls held guilty by the law “repent and believe the gospel “

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so you have that word of death from the law “whoever sins must surely die “


and then this word of life that saves souls the gospel

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[ChoirLoft]

the law can’t save and never has saved a single person it’s not capable of saving a sinner only condemning them . Look to the gospel the engrafted word for salvation

‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Typical evangelical theological IGNORANCE. You know not the LAW, therefore you deny it.

Jesus said He did not come to abolish the LAW, but to fulfill it. (MATT 5:17) Do you know what HE meant? Probably not, which is why you will either respond by accusing me of taking the quote out of context or deny it altogether. What did Jesus do to fulfill the LAW without breaking it or destroying it? If the LAW is not abolished, as Jesus said, then the LAW still stands. What is the primary function of the LAW? Tell us if you know.

Those who do not live BY THE LAW will DIE BY THE LAW. - Romans 2:12

What does the LAW require?

Did you not read my post? Go back and read it again. Do you not read the Bible?

What you wrote is true, but not accurate. Meditate on that for a while and then consider the LAW.

What is truth plus accuracy? It means that one who is ignorant of the big Biblical picture will conjure up a crippled doctrine based upon one leg of truth only and build a crippled doctrine to follow it. That's great for a potato sack race, but for true religion it doesn't wash.

You who exhibit rabid opposition to the LAW, do you know WHICH LAW you are opposed to? Are you a Jewish Christian (like those of the 1st century who actually knew what they were talking and writing about)? If you were, you'd be able to answer that question quickly and easily. As it is you fight gallantly against something when you don't know what it is.

Hint #1: what is Talmudic law (practiced by Jews then and now)? What is Mosaic LAW (Torah - practiced by Jesus & apostles)? What's the difference? Big difference, btw.

Hint #2: One is referred to by scholars as the LAW of Grace while the other is referred to as the law of works. Which is which?

Which do you embrace? Which do you oppose? Or do you throw it all down the toilet and make things up as you go along - as the post protestant church does these days?

Today Jesus would call Himself a Karaite Jew. Do you know what that means? Google it. Jesus never broke abstained or denied a single word of the LAW He followed and preached (mostly from Deuteronomy, btw).

As it is you have imprisoned yourself in a tiny place surrounded by buzz words you don't fully understand. There you will remain for the rest of your natural life unless you actually dive into the Old Testament and study Torah. Along the way you might hear about some things from Talmud. You might see a difference. When the apostles wrote about law(s) they weren't contradicting themselves. They were considering two different laws. So should you.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Typical evangelical theological IGNORANCE. You know not the LAW, therefore you deny it.

Jesus said He did not come to abolish the LAW, but to fulfill it. (MATT 5:17) Do you know what HE meant? Probably not, which is why you will either respond by accusing me of taking the quote out of context or deny it altogether. What did Jesus do to fulfill the LAW without breaking it or destroying it? If the LAW is not abolished, as Jesus said, then the LAW still stands. What is the primary function of the LAW? Tell us if you know.

Those who do not live BY THE LAW will DIE BY THE LAW. - Romans 2:12

What does the LAW require?

Did you not read my post? Go back and read it again. Do you not read the Bible?

What you wrote is true, but not accurate. Meditate on that for a while and then consider the LAW.

What is truth plus accuracy? It means that one who is ignorant of the big Biblical picture will conjure up a crippled doctrine based upon one leg of truth only and build a crippled doctrine to follow it. That's great for a potato sack race, but for true religion it doesn't wash.

You who exhibit rabid opposition to the LAW, do you know WHICH LAW you are opposed to? Are you a Jewish Christian (like those of the 1st century who actually knew what they were talking and writing about)? If you were, you'd be able to answer that question quickly and easily. As it is you fight gallantly against something when you don't know what it is.

Hint #1: what is Talmudic law (practiced by Jews then and now)? What is Mosaic LAW (Torah - practiced by Jesus & apostles)? What's the difference? Big difference, btw.

Hint #2: One is referred to by scholars as the LAW of Grace while the other is referred to as the law of works. Which is which?

Which do you embrace? Which do you oppose? Or do you throw it all down the toilet and make things up as you go along - as the post protestant church does these days?

Today Jesus would call Himself a Karaite Jew. Do you know what that means? Google it. Jesus never broke abstained or denied a single word of the LAW He followed and preached (mostly from Deuteronomy, btw).

As it is you have imprisoned yourself in a tiny place surrounded by buzz words you don't fully understand. There you will remain for the rest of your natural life unless you actually dive into the Old Testament and study Torah. Along the way you might hear about some things from Talmud. You might see a difference. When the apostles wrote about law(s) they weren't contradicting themselves. They were considering two different laws. So should you.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

what if the apostles of Jesus christs said it plainly and wrote a letter confirming it and sent it to all the churches ?

The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

here is more of the context for you to consider if you are still able to consider

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

...Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-12, 18-20, 23-29‬ ‭

the law of Moses wasn’t from the beginning it is the result of sin it was added because men became sinners

the gospel is about faith which is before the law and after the law . I understand though how the law becomes a blinder to Christ

thisnisnt me judging you but honestly pride really emanates from your words as if you consider yourself authority , yet your approach seems juvenile with insults and ridiculing towards others jargon . This is only my own observation possibly consider what all the apostles decided about Christians needing to conform to and keep
Moses law

Then Paul’s teachings in his epistles make sense and we aren’t trying to be saved by a law meant to hold us guilty for every sin but we’re believing the gospel which is meant to save souls

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

God the Father is not in another dimension because He is an omnipresent Spirit.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus dwells in the heaven and earth at the same time and no person has seen Jesus and no person will ever see Jesus for He is an invisible Spirit but showed a visible manifestation to the Jews.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The Lord is that Spirit and the Holy Spirit is an omnipresent Spirit.

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The Father is dwelling in the Son and He did the works because the Father is in heaven and on earth at the same time.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in heaven and earth at the same time.

God the Father is outside of Creation. Heaven is part of Creation. You don't have something that says God can't be in Higher Dimensions. We say Christ is The Father's Representation for a reason. I like to describe Them as the reverse of an iceberg poking out of the sea.

 

[Blik]

I don't see why Christians get so tangled with disagreements about the law. The law comes from the Lord, and it is good. The law guides us as we put on Christ. The law spells out for us what separates us from God. In the four gospels there is no scripture saying the law is dead.

It is always a misunderstanding of the words of Paul that starts the unholy divisions among Christians, yet it is pointed out to us in Acts that Paul does not disagree with Christ.

The disagreements seem to center around two biblical truths. One is that we simply can't, in our human form, obey law so well we can have eternal life so we all need Christ. This is repeated to us "the law won't save", as if that is something to say is wrong with the law!!

The other disagreements center around "the law of Moses". Moses was given guidelines for Hebrews that, after the Holy Spirit was given to all are not obligatory for Christians. Some Christians read that to mean that God took back all the guidance God gave us that could be called law.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Could I say Baptism creates the door for us to open to Christ?

 

[pittsburghjoe]

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

‬‬

Can we relate this to the Tree of Knowledge?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Can we relate this to the Tree of Knowledge?

I sort of do myself yes, not officially or anything but

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the law it reflects those who partake of good and evil in other words sinners . Those who struggle with doing good or evil . The law of Moses is for those who are in the struggle of good and evil

the tree of life relates here in my own thoughts

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because we sinned the law says we must die , Jesus gospel is salvation from that death sentence that they partook of when they are the fruit that was not meant for them

As soon as they ate the fruit

“And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:8, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


So the law comes like that look how terrified they are

“Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭5:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They aren’t supposed to be terrified and hiding from God it is because thier nature is now good and evil and the evil is terrified of destruction the law is based on what Adam did wrong and the gospel is based upon what Jesus did right so it comes without the same condemnation.

we’re supposed to get to the point where we love his word and want to learn and know him through his word rather than be terrified of him and stay far away

 

[pittsburghjoe]

the evil is terrified of destruction

That is amazing insight. I think it hints at more information about the fallen state/condition. This will sound insane ..but could the fruit have had DMT in it? Could the so-called "sprit molecule" actually be a fallen molecule?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That is amazing insight. I think it hints at more information about the fallen state/condition. This will sound insane ..but could the fruit have had DMT in it? Could the so-called "sprit molecule" actually be a fallen molecule?

that one is beyond my brain brother not sure what a molecule actually even is .

what you are saying about the fall this own before they transgressed the commandment.

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

( God then creates the animals and brings them to Adam to name them and makes Eve and brings her to Adam )

....And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬


But then after they ate the fruit

“And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;

and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:

and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:7-8, 10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the knowledge of good and evil wasn’t meant to be within mans nature God had already seperated good and evil
Before he made us in his image . They weren’t ashamed of nakedness before God because there was no evil in thier minds

when they transgressed it created this conflict in thier nature that is not meant to be

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

mankind is now internally conflicted between the good and the evil within “ a law of sin “ within our nature but it isn’t the law Of God it came from transgression of his commandment so it produced fouled fruit trees

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when God told them not to eat the fruit , it was intended that they would believe him and never eat the fruit . It was intended to protect them But satan used it against then to produce sin and then death through thier transgression

“But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

For without the law sin was dead.

For I was alive without the law once:

but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:8-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


paul Is not speaking of himself personally but of mankind as a whole we were alive in Eden with God , but then he told them “not to eat the fruit or they would surely die “

if they believe and obey that they won’t die. Satan used it to put them to death.

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that is a warning meant to keep them in thier living state in Eden all they need do is believe and keep to that faith and they will live.

but what happens if they eat the fruit ? Satan used what was good , against them through deception which brought transgression and the curse was entered into by mankind

his word is like that always it’s true so if he tells us what will happen if we obey it that’s true . He tells us what will happen if we don’t obey it and that is also true .

Satan fights on one side of that law the transgress and die side

and God is on the other side the obedience and life side

the choice is noirs but the law can’t offer life to sinners it can only put them to death Christ is the tree of life if we repent of feeding on the tree of good and evil and begin feeding on the tree of life we will live

 

[pittsburghjoe]

that one is beyond my brain brother not sure what a molecule actually even is .

what you are saying about the fall this own before they transgressed the commandment.

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

( God then creates the animals and brings them to Adam to name them and makes Eve and brings her to Adam )

....And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬


But then after they ate the fruit

“And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;

and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:

and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:7-8, 10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the knowledge of good and evil wasn’t meant to be within mans nature God had already seperated good and evil
Before he made us in his image . They weren’t ashamed of nakedness before God because there was no evil in thier minds

when they transgressed it created this conflict in thier nature that is not meant to be

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

mankind is now internally conflicted between the good and the evil within “ a law of sin “ within our nature but it isn’t the law Of God it came from transgression of his commandment so it produced fouled fruit trees

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when God told them not to eat the fruit , it was intended that they would believe him and never eat the fruit . It was intended to protect them But satan used it against then to produce sin and then death through thier transgression

“But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

For without the law sin was dead.

For I was alive without the law once:

but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:8-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


paul Is not speaking of himself personally but of mankind as a whole we were alive in Eden with God , but then he told them “not to eat the fruit or they would surely die “

if they believe and obey that they won’t die. Satan used it to put them to death.

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that is a warning meant to keep them in thier living state in Eden all they need do is believe and keep to that faith and they will live.

but what happens if they eat the fruit ? Satan used what was good , against them through deception which brought transgression and the curse was entered into by mankind

his word is like that always it’s true so if he tells us what will happen if we obey it that’s true . He tells us what will happen if we don’t obey it and that is also true .

Satan fights on one side of that law the transgress and die side

and God is on the other side the obedience and life side

the choice is noirs but the law can’t offer life to sinners it can only put them to death Christ is the tree of life if we repent of feeding on the tree of good and evil and begin feeding on the tree of life we will live

Does being born into a fallen condition cause part of our consciousness to be fallen as well? Is this how Satan whispers in your ear?

 

[ChoirLoft]

I don't see why Christians get so tangled with disagreements about the law. The law comes from the Lord, and it is good. The law guides us as we put on Christ. The law spells out for us what separates us from God. In the four gospels there is no scripture saying the law is dead.

It is always a misunderstanding of the words of Paul that starts the unholy divisions among Christians, yet it is pointed out to us in Acts that Paul does not disagree with Christ.

The disagreements seem to center around two biblical truths. One is that we simply can't, in our human form, obey law so well we can have eternal life so we all need Christ. This is repeated to us "the law won't save", as if that is something to say is wrong with the law!!

The other disagreements center around "the law of Moses". Moses was given guidelines for Hebrews that, after the Holy Spirit was given to all are not obligatory for Christians. Some Christians read that to mean that God took back all the guidance God gave us that could be called law.

You are almost there. Thank you for your post. You've got the clearest idea of what's going on of anybody here. Not perfect, but you're headed in the right direction. There are a few fools who refuse truth, but that's to be expected.

You wrote," the LAW spells out for us what separates us from God." This is entirely correct. That which separates us from God is SIN. The LAW defines it and convinces us of it in our lives. The LAW leads us to repentance, without which nobody gets saved - Jew or gentile. Think of a GPS system telling us where to go to get saved. That's the function of the LAW. There's a lot more to it, but for our purposes here today that's it.

Christians get tangled up with disagreements about the LAW for two reasons; they hate Jews and they hate anybody telling them what to do (same as the secular world).

You wrote, "the LAW comes from the Lord, and it is good." This gift from God is called GRACE. Nobody paid for it. Nobody asked for it. God gave it to Moses who passed it on down the line to us. That being said, there are TWO laws. One is the LAW of GRACE and the other is the law of works. Technically they are Torah and Talmud.

Torah (1st 5 books of the Bible) were given by God, which is why so many hate it including Jews. Oh yes, they carry the scrolls around and act like the thing is holy, but when they look for teaching and guidance they consider it a thing for children only. Jews rely upon Talmud, teachings of the Jewish rabbinate that were developed during the Babylonian captivity.

Talmud is made by man and declares that one is saved by doing good deeds. Torah says one is saved by doing things God's way.

Technically the LAW won't save, but it DOES declare to us the procedure for salvation. The LAW declares that only the blood of the lamb (Jesus) can save. Most Christians cannot tell anyone what the deal is about blood in the Bible. They simply don't know. Nobody has ever told them because church leaders don't want to be perceived as telling people how to live their lives. They are ok with demanding donation$, but they won't tell people how to live. So we end up with ignorant Christians who think we're saved by love, either theirs or God's or whatever. They think love is forever. It isn't. God's love unto salvation is temporary. (Genesis 6:3a) The blood of Christ is permanent.

The idea that the LAW has been abolished comes from the Roman Catholic church, which is anti-Semitic to the core and which is also the anti-Christ system. The RCC church developed the idea that THEY replaced the LAW (by works) and that Hebrew law doesn't apply. It does, according to Jesus. (Matt 5:17) The RCC promotes the doctrine of Supersessionism or Replacement Theology which subverts the LAW and substitutes their own rules. Blood of Christ isn't necessary as long as you've got a priest around to say a few magic words over some stale wine - thus transmorphing its quality to something it isn't. Ever wonder what happens to left over wine from Catholic communion? Most of the time its dumped down a sink drain. So much for magic water.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

You are almost there. Thank you for your post. You've got the clearest idea of what's going on of anybody here. Not perfect, but you're headed in the right direction. There are a few fools who refuse truth, but that's to be expected.

You wrote," the LAW spells out for us what separates us from God." This is entirely correct. That which separates us from God is SIN. The LAW defines it and convinces us of it in our lives. The LAW leads us to repentance, without which nobody gets saved - Jew or gentile. Think of a GPS system telling us where to go to get saved. That's the function of the LAW. There's a lot more to it, but for our purposes here today that's it.

Christians get tangled up with disagreements about the LAW for two reasons; they hate Jews and they hate anybody telling them what to do (same as the secular world).

You wrote, "the LAW comes from the Lord, and it is good." This gift from God is called GRACE. Nobody paid for it. Nobody asked for it. God gave it to Moses who passed it on down the line to us. That being said, there are TWO laws. One is the LAW of GRACE and the other is the law of works. Technically they are Torah and Talmud.

Torah (1st 5 books of the Bible) were given by God, which is why so many hate it including Jews. Oh yes, they carry the scrolls around and act like the thing is holy, but when they look for teaching and guidance they consider it a thing for children only. Jews rely upon Talmud, teachings of the Jewish rabbinate that were developed during the Babylonian captivity.

Talmud is made by man and declares that one is saved by doing good deeds. Torah says one is saved by doing things God's way.

Technically the LAW won't save, but it DOES declare to us the procedure for salvation. The LAW declares that only the blood of the lamb (Jesus) can save. Most Christians cannot tell anyone what the deal is about blood in the Bible. They simply don't know. Nobody has ever told them because church leaders don't want to be perceived as telling people how to live their lives. They are ok with demanding donation$, but they won't tell people how to live. So we end up with ignorant Christians who think we're saved by love, either theirs or God's or whatever. They think love is forever. It isn't. God's love unto salvation is temporary. (Genesis 6:3a) The blood of Christ is permanent.

The idea that the LAW has been abolished comes from the Roman Catholic church, which is anti-Semitic to the core and which is also the anti-Christ system. The RCC church developed the idea that THEY replaced the LAW (by works) and that Hebrew law doesn't apply. It does, according to Jesus. (Matt 5:17) The RCC promotes the doctrine of Supersessionism or Replacement Theology which subverts the LAW and substitutes their own rules. Blood of Christ isn't necessary as long as you've got a priest around to say a few magic words over some stale wine - thus transmorphing its quality to something it isn't. Ever wonder what happens to left over wine from Catholic communion? Most of the time its dumped down a sink drain. So much for magic water.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

A little trivia about RCC sink drains for left over communion wine. Ask a priest about this if you don't believe me.

A special sink is usually installed somewhere near the altar in a back room, usually where the vestments are kept. When there is too much wine the priest pours the wine down the sink drain. But this is a special drain. It doesn't so into the public sewer or septic system. The pipe does straight down through the floor to the open ground. Left over sacramental (magic) wine is therefore poured into the ground.

Why do I mention this? Because the blood of Christ is the only way to salvation - NOT magic wine.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

Does being born into a fallen condition cause part of our consciousness to be fallen as well? Is this how Satan whispers in your ear?

People are NOT BORN INTO A FALLEN CONDITION. Read your Bible.

The LAW says a person is not guilty of SIN until they actually commit SIN. One is not guilty of murder unless one kills.

Calvinists and Catholics try to convince people that everyone except themselves are born bad. SIN is in the world and has a heavy influence upon the lives of men and women, but God does not judge or punish people for SIN they haven't committed.

It has been said that SIN has authority over the world. It is also said that God is Lord of Heaven and Earth. Sounds like confusion doesn't it? Big difference between lordship and authority. SIN has authority in the world even though God is Lord over it.

Do you know who gave SIN this authority? God didn't. We did. Read Genesis 3.

According to God's LAW, which Calvinists and Catholics hate bitterly, one isn't guilty from birth. One is guilty only after one SINs.

There is no such thing as original sin in the Bible. Read the thing.

Satanic whispers are temptation to COMMIT SIN. If humans were already guilty of SIN, no whispering would be necessary. Temptation is real and so are the whispers. Original SIN isn't real, otherwise satan would be out of a job.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[pittsburghjoe]

People are NOT BORN INTO A FALLEN CONDITION. Read your Bible.

The LAW says a person is not guilty of SIN until they actually commit SIN. One is not guilty of murder unless one kills.

Calvinists and Catholics try to convince people that everyone except themselves are born bad. SIN is in the world and has a heavy influence upon the lives of men and women, but God does not judge or punish people for SIN they haven't committed.

It has been said that SIN has authority over the world. It is also said that God is Lord of Heaven and Earth. Sounds like confusion doesn't it? Big difference between lordship and authority. SIN has authority in the world even though God is Lord over it.

Do you know who gave SIN this authority? God didn't. We did. Read Genesis 3.

According to God's LAW, which Calvinists and Catholics hate bitterly, one isn't guilty from birth. One is guilty only after one SINs.

There is no such thing as original sin in the Bible. Read the thing.

Satanic whispers are temptation to COMMIT SIN. If humans were already guilty of SIN, no whispering would be necessary. Temptation is real and so are the whispers. Original SIN isn't real, otherwise satan would be out of a job.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Uh, we gave him authority via original sin

When we become saved, satan is still part of our consciousness ..but he doesn't own you anymore. His claim on you after you physically die has been removed.

 

[ChoirLoft]

"Is the Holy Spirit showing us God can be anywhere and everywhere at the same time (Omnipresent|Omniscient)?"

If the Lord is in control of all things, this means that He is aware of all things. Nothing [is] outside of the Power and Control of our Lord God Almighty.

You're treading on very thin ice here, theologically. Unless you are an experienced theologian I'd abandon that line of thinking if I were you.

The Holy Spirit glorifies the Kingdom of God. That's it and that's all.

According to the Bible everything is INSIDE God. Secular philosophical thinking would have us believe God is "somewhere out there" watching us from a distance. The idea is that if God is outside somewhere we can hide in the shadows - in here somewhere and commit any SIN we want. Not true, because we are INSIDE God. He sees because He doesn't have to look very far.

Native Americans have many ideas about religion. One that I like is that they call God "the everywhere spirit". That pretty much sums it up.

Angels are spirits that are finite - they have edges. If you've ever seen one, you'd know what I mean. They have the same flavor of God, which is why those that first see them think they're meeting God. On the other hand they have edges and are finite. Biblical accounts describe angels and demons as inhabiting a limited amount of space. The Bible nowhere sets boundaries for God.

Theologians think up multi-syllable words to justify their salaries. They say God is omni this or omni that. How about just saying God is everywhere? It's the same thing if you think of it.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

Uh, we gave him authority via original sin

When we become saved, satan is still part of our consciousness ..but he doesn't own you anymore. His claim on you after you physically die has been removed.

Read Genesis 3.

Prior to the temptation Eve and Adam were without SIN. They also had autonomous authority to live their lives as they saw fit. Eve was tempted by the serpent to SIN. Eve sinned first, not Adam. After that she seduced her husband into committing SIN with her. This kind of thing has been going on between men and women ever since.

Both were punished by the loss of their authority WHICH THEY GAVE TO SATAN. St. Paul says it differently when he writes in Romans 6:13a "Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness" He writes even more specifically in Romans 6:19 and warns against yielding one's members to SIN.

Autonomous authority over one's life was permanently lost in Eden. When Christ is born within us, authority is only partially restored. Christ keeps part of it and dispenses only that which He deems appropriate for us. Even then we tend to misuse it.

The power of SIN has no power over the spirit of one who is born again. The body is different, however. It remains in flux - forever fighting and warring against the power of SIN and the desire of the saved person to please God. This war, described fully in Romans 6, 7 & 8 is indicative of the born again experience. If the power of SIN is in control, as in a non-saved person, there is no war. The poor soul is entirely manipulated like some puppet - almost completely unaware of what is happening to it.

A saved person is quite certainly aware of the tension - evidence I must add of the spiritual war upon earth.....again a thing the unsaved do not see. The claim of satan may be removed, but its attempt to subvert one's life continues. Read the book of Romans.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

Uh, we gave him authority via original sin

When we become saved, satan is still part of our consciousness ..but he doesn't own you anymore. His claim on you after you physically die has been removed.

All this about 'authority' is defined by THE LAW. Read the books of Exodus and Leviticus. There you will learn about LAW and how God runs things.

There is no arbitrary thing called original sin, as though it was some fog that hangs over a man's life from the time of his birth. SINS' power (the Bible never uses the word 'claim') is broken when God forgives a man's SIN, according to the LAW. When a man receives the blood of Christ, DEATH and SIN no longer have power over his (the man's) spirit. This happens during physical life. Read the book of Acts.

If you want to know how the laws of man work, hire an attourney. If you want to know how God works READ THE BIBLE - especially the part about His LAW.

A lot of confusion would be avoided if you'd just READ THE BIBLE, specifically the LAW. It describes how things work. Fantasy about false doctrine would be quickly eliminated if you read the Bible. If you don't know the LAW, then you have no idea how salvation works, how grace is applied or how to please God in the first place. You are left with works dictated by the false religion of man - works that will not save anybody, btw.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Read Genesis 3.

Prior to the temptation Eve and Adam were without SIN. They also had autonomous authority to live their lives as they saw fit. Eve was tempted by the serpent to SIN. Eve sinned first, not Adam. After that she seduced her husband into committing SIN with her. This kind of thing has been going on between men and women ever since.

Both were punished by the loss of their authority WHICH THEY GAVE TO SATAN. St. Paul says it differently when he writes in Romans 6:13a "Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness" He writes even more specifically in Romans 6:19 and warns against yielding one's members to SIN.

Autonomous authority over one's life was permanently lost in Eden. When Christ is born within us, authority is only partially restored. Christ keeps part of it and dispenses only that which He deems appropriate for us. Even then we tend to misuse it.

The power of SIN has no power over the spirit of one who is born again. The body is different, however. It remains in flux - forever fighting and warring against the power of SIN and the desire of the saved person to please God. This war, described fully in Romans 6, 7 & 8 is indicative of the born again experience. If the power of SIN is in control, as in a non-saved person, there is no war. The poor soul is entirely manipulated like some puppet - almost completely unaware of what is happening to it.

A saved person is quite certainly aware of the tension - evidence I must add of the spiritual war upon earth.....again a thing the unsaved do not see. The claim of satan may be removed, but its attempt to subvert one's life continues. Read the book of Romans.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Weird how satan can speak in anyone's ear. New sin isn't a requirement. I just told you satan is literally in our heads. It's called original sin.

 

[ChoirLoft]

Weird how satan can speak in anyone's ear. New sin isn't a requirement. I just told you satan is literally in our heads. It's called original sin.

You have no idea what you are writing about. SIN isn't in one's head. It can be in your groin, in your wallet, in your grotesque desire for food....anywhere in you. It's temptation isn't usually heard as words or whispers. If you are hearing voices I suggest you see a doctor. I'm serious here, not making insulting remarks. You may need professional help.

The LAW nowhere states anyone is born into SIN.

The LAW defines SIN as something that is DONE.

Like lying. You know about lying don't you? The doctrine of original sin is a lie. It is nowhere affirmed in the Bible. The LAW tells us what SIN is. SIN is doing. You are confusing SIN with guilt, which our mothers and wives push on us. That's all different.

Read the Bible.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...