Not By Works

[OIC1965]

The Body of Christ did not begin in Acts 2, but if you were to hold that doctrine, I can understand the appeal.

We can agree to disagree there.

When did the body of Christ begin?

 

[OIC1965]

Hebrews 8:8-12, I repeat, is a promise to Israel. Don't claim promises given to the nation Israel for yourself.

If that is true, Why do Gentiles participate in the fruit of the vine in the Supper, if it represents the blood of the New Covenant?

 

[Guojing]

When did the body of Christ begin?

When Paul was saved (1 Timothy 1:16)

 

[Guojing]

But they had to be justified to be righteous before God. It was not enough to be part of the nation alone.

An example of how God view righteousness, before the cross, can be seen in Luke 1:6 regarding John the Baptist's parents

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

 

[OIC1965]

When Paul was saved (1 Timothy 1:16)

1 Timothy 1:16 does not say any such thing.

 

[Guojing]

If that is true, Why do Gentiles participate in the fruit of the vine in the Supper, if it represents the blood of the New Covenant?

There is a difference in meaning between Testament and Covenant.

 

[Guojing]

1 Timothy 1:16 does not say any such thing.

Paul was the first member saved in the Body of Christ there, as a pattern for everyone of us.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[OIC1965]

An example of how God view righteousness, before the cross, can be seen in Luke 1:6 regarding John the Baptist's parents

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The only way anyone has ever been righteous is by faith. The commandments of the Lord would include sacrifices to deal with their sins.

 

[OIC1965]

There is a difference in meaning between Testament and Covenant.

Same Greek word, if I’m not mistaken.

 

[Guojing]

The only way anyone has ever been righteous is by faith. The commandments of the Lord would include sacrifices to deal with their sins.

Yes, you are correct, the Covenant of the Law provided for animal sacrifices.

But the point is, you have to sacrifice them, which involves work, since animals are certainly not cheap during the OT days.

If you were to do that, God sees your obedience to his covenant as faith to him, and he will see you righteous because of that faith.

The precedent was set with Cain and Abel in Genesis 4:7.

 

[OIC1965]

Paul was the first member saved in the Body of Christ there, as a pattern for everyone of us.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Was Peter the first apostle chronologically. Compare Mark 10:2 with John 1: 40-41.

 

[OIC1965]

Yes, you are correct, the Covenant of the Law provided for animal sacrifices.

But the point is, you have to sacrifice them, which involves work, since animals are certainly not cheap during the OT days.

If you were to do that, God sees your obedience to his covenant as faith to him, and he will see you righteous because of that faith.

Yes. Justified by faith, then and now.

All the bulls in the world could not atone for one sin.

I’m off to bed. Good night, sir.

 

[Guojing]

Yes. Justified by faith, then and now. Works a byproduct of faith.

But as Paul taught us now in the Body of Christ, our salvation is by faith, apart from works (Romans 4:5)

God commands us now, thru Paul, to cease from all works, and trust in Christ's finished work on the cross, and we receive present salvation if we obey him in that specific instruction.

There is a very clear difference there. Ours is present salvation (Ephesians 1:7), Israel's salvation only comes in the future, as Peter reminded Israel in Acts 3:19-21.

 

[Guojing]

Was Peter the first apostle chronologically. Compare Mark 10:2 with John 1: 40-41.

Peter is not in the Body of Christ, he will be on Earth judging the 12 tribes of Israel on Earth during the millennial reign of Christ, as promised to him.

For us in the Body of Christ, our destiny is in the heavens.

 

[OIC1965]

But as Paul taught us now in the Body of Christ, our salvation is by faith, apart from works (Romans 4:5)

God commands us now, thru Paul, to cease from all works, and trust in Christ's finished work on the cross, and we receive present salvation if we obey him in that specific instruction.

There is a very clear difference there. Ours is present salvation (Ephesians 1:7), Israel's salvation only comes in the future, as Peter reminded Israel in Acts 3:19-21.

The purpose of the law was to reveal sin and to point to Jesus. The Law never saved anyone.

 

[OIC1965]

Peter is not in the Body of Christ, he will be on Earth judging the 12 tribes of Israel on Earth during the millennial reign of Christ, as promised to him.

For us in the Body of Christ, our destiny is in the heavens.

Everyone who has ever been baptized with the Holy Spirit is in the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13

Peter was baptized with the Holy Spirit. Acts 2

It follows then that Peter was part of the body of Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Everyone who has ever been baptized with the Holy Spirit is in the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13

Peter was baptized with the Holy Spirit. Acts 2

It follows then that Peter was part of the body of Christ.

If you insist, I am fine, we can agree to disagree there.

 

[Guojing]

The purpose of the law was to reveal sin and to point to Jesus. The Law never saved anyone.

Never said it did.

It was always faith that saves, you obey what God commanded you to do at any time period, he sees that as faith.

For example, Abel offered the sacrifice God commanded, Cain refused to offer that (genesis 4:7). As a result, one had faith, the other did not.

In the ot time period, God commanded Israel to follow the law. The only way you can show faith is to do what he commands.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Elijah was taken up to the 1st heaven before his death, yes.

But it does not mean he did not return to Earth and die after that. II Chronicles 21:12-15 has an interesting account of a letter written by Elijah after his return to Earth.

Otherwise, Jesus would be contradicting himself in John 3:13, a verse I quoted already to another here.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The author of Hebrews made it clear for people like Enoch and Elijah in chapter 11.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers pilgrims on the earth.

Before I address what's written in your "Bible Tools" commentary, let's establish this:

1) What is certain is that Elijah was literally (not in vision) taken up to heaven (2 Kings 2:1 KJV).
2) What is not certain is that Elijah ever returned from heaven to Earth to die (not one text) or returned at any other time except in the Mount of Transfiguration.
3) That Elijah did return centuries later to the Mount proves he had already received his immortal body.

THEREFORE:

1) It’s possible that the author of 2 Kings did not place the account of Elijah’s translation to heaven in chronological order with the surrounding chapters. Elijah could have still been serving as prophet until much later in the reign of Jehoram.

2) Another possibility is that Elijah wrote the letter to Jehoram before his departure to heaven and left it for Elisha or someone else to deliver. Elijah was a prophet, after all. God could easily have given him the words to write ahead of time.

3) Another possibility is that, before his translation to heaven, Elijah told Elisha what Jehoram would do and what God’s judgment would be. When the time came, Elisha wrote out Elijah’s prophecy and delivered it to King Jehoram.

So, for the author of the "Bible Tools" commentary to make such a bold, subjective statement when the three points above are more than plausible explanations to the contrary, demonstrates extreme irresponsible exegesis on his part.

 

[Guojing]

Before I address what's written in your "Bible Tools" commentary, let's establish this:

1) What is certain is that Elijah was literally (not in vision) taken up to heaven (2 Kings 2:1 KJV).
2) What is not certain is that Elijah ever returned from heaven to Earth to die (not one text) or returned at any other time except in the Mount of Transfiguration.
3) That Elijah did return centuries later to the Mount proves he had already received his immortal body.

THEREFORE:

1) It’s possible that the author of 2 Kings did not place the account of Elijah’s translation to heaven in chronological order with the surrounding chapters. Elijah could have still been serving as prophet until much later in the reign of Jehoram.

2) Another possibility is that Elijah wrote the letter to Jehoram before his departure to heaven and left it for Elisha or someone else to deliver. Elijah was a prophet, after all. God could easily have given him the words to write ahead of time.

3) Another possibility is that, before his translation to heaven, Elijah told Elisha what Jehoram would do and what God’s judgment would be. When the time came, Elisha wrote out Elijah’s prophecy and delivered it to King Jehoram.

So, for the author of the "Bible Tools" commentary to make such a bold, subjective statement when the three points above are more than plausible explanations to the contrary, demonstrates extreme irresponsible exegesis on his part.

From Jesus words in John 3:13, Elijah could not have been to the 3rd heaven.

So your premise 1 is already uncertain.

That verse I quoted from Hebrews 11 already told us Enoch still died, so if he could die, why would you think Elijah did not die?