Signs that follow them that believeth.

[PaulChristensen]

What I am saying is that "The gospel of the kingdom is always accompanied by signs and wonders", so anyone that says signs and wonders are for today is actually preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

I am not saying anyone should preach signs and wonders.

Today's churches are nothing like the Early Church. From the 4th Century onwards, the established church was plagued with paganism, barren ceremony and ritual, seeking the will of God replaced by the authority of the bishops, the Holy Spirit as the Vicar of Christ replaced by the pope in Rome. That went on for over a 1000 years until the Reformation. The Reformers managed to deal with many of the falsehoods, but didn't go all the way to bring the church back to the absolutely purity and commitment to Christ that enabled the Holy Spirit to work with it as He did before.

We still have churches that resemble pagan temples, along with ceremonial and ritualistic services, non-New Testament priests (Anglican and Lutheran), unbelief (the same type that limited the power of Jesus in His home town) due to widespread Cessationist thinking, hypocrisy in terms of people attending church as "nominal" Sunday Christians with no real commitment to Christ, and very low standards of personal holiness, one-man-band ministries performing to passive "audiences".

Even the Pentecostal churches formed in the early 20th Century that initially featured many miraculous healings and deliverances from demon influence, have now largely gone the same way with such organised, planned services that programme the Holy Spirit right out of them. Many Pentecostal churches no longer have the Spiritual gifts operating in their services, and attending many is just like attending any Cessationist evangelical church.

Also, the ones that are claiming signs and wonders, are heretical WOF type churches fronted by people kike Kenny Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, and Joyce Meyer - where the gospel of Christ is not preached at all, and anyone who gets up and encourages people to put their faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, is ejected from the services by strong-armed security people.

And churches like Bethel and Hillsong are so corrupted by pagan ritual, occult music, hypnotic suggestion, and occult kundalini manifestation, that they are more akin to pagan temples than Christian churches, even though they make out that they are "Christian".

So, the signs and wonders don't accompany the preaching of the gospel today? Here you have the reasons why.

 

[PaulChristensen]

The Holy Spirit had signs and wonders followed Paul, because Jews always needed signs. The Jewish believers needed to be convinced that Paul's new gospel of the uncircumcision was legitimate.

If you recall Acts 15

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Without those signs and wonders, if you put yourself in the shoes of those Jewish believers, everything Paul said in Galatians 1 and 2, "Christ appeared to me, Christ gave me the gospel without the Law, to preach to the gentiles" were all one-sided claims.

With all due respect, your view is based on Eisegesis, not Exegesis. You are reading into the passage something that is not supported by the context.

The context is that false apostles had plagued the Gentile churches with the requirement that unless a Gentile person is circumcised and complies with the Mosaic Law they cannot be saved. Paul wrote his letter to the Galatians in response to this false teaching. He and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to have it out with the Apostles. The reason why Paul and Barnabas were listened to was because of the miracles that happened through Paul and Barnabas among the Gentiles. It shows clearly that the Apostles in Jerusalem were not requiring a sign from Paul and Barnabas, but the miracles among the Gentiles gave them credibility. It wasn't any miracles done among the Jews that showed that P and B were on the level. They gave credibility to the gospel that P and B were preaching to the Gentiles and enabled the Apostles to give P and B the right hand of fellowship and their support of their ministry to the Gentiles.

This is quite different to Paul writing in 1 Corinthians 1:22 that "the Jews require signs and the Greek seek after wisdom". Paul is here writing about unconverted Jews and Greeks.

Therefore context is vitally important to enable good hermeneutics.

 

[Guojing]

With all due respect, your view is based on Eisegesis, not Exegesis. You are reading into the passage something that is not supported by the context.

The context is that false apostles had plagued the Gentile churches with the requirement that unless a Gentile person is circumcised and complies with the Mosaic Law they cannot be saved. Paul wrote his letter to the Galatians in response to this false teaching. He and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to have it out with the Apostles. The reason why Paul and Barnabas were listened to was because of the miracles that happened through Paul and Barnabas among the Gentiles. It shows clearly that the Apostles in Jerusalem were not requiring a sign from Paul and Barnabas, but the miracles among the Gentiles gave them credibility. It wasn't any miracles done among the Jews that showed that P and B were on the level. They gave credibility to the gospel that P and B were preaching to the Gentiles and enabled the Apostles to give P and B the right hand of fellowship and their support of their ministry to the Gentiles.

This is quite different to Paul writing in 1 Corinthians 1:22 that "the Jews require signs and the Greek seek after wisdom". Paul is here writing about unconverted Jews and Greeks.

Therefore context is vitally important to enable good hermeneutics.

As I said, prior to Paul, they were correct that without obeying the law and physical circumcision, no gentiles can be saved.

It was stated in exodus 12:48 and no one, not even the resurrected Christ himself, ever instructed otherwise.

 

[PaulChristensen]

As I said, prior to Paul, they were correct that without obeying the law and physical circumcision, no gentiles can be saved.

It was stated in exodus 12:48 and no one, not even the resurrected Christ himself, ever instructed otherwise.

Prior to Paul, converts to Christ were Jews. It was Peter who was the first to realise that Gentiles could be converted and receive the Holy Spirit. He was confronted with that when he shared the gospel with the household of Cornelius. None of those people were circumcised, nor did they comply with Mosaic Law, yet they received the evidence of true conversion. Peter was able to report to the other Apostles that "these one received the Holy Spirit just the same as we did!"

Yes, Paul was the one who took the gospel to the Gentiles, and when the issue came up about circumcision and compliance with Mosaic Law, he opposed it. He asked the Galatian Christians, "who has bewitched you?" This was a strong statement from Paul clearly implying that it was a false doctrine that was leading Gentile converts away from Christ. He said that if a person decided that circumcision and compliance with Mosaic Law was a requirement for salvation, they were turning away from Christ, and they no longer had any part in Christ at all.

You are correct that the initial group of early Christians were circumcised and adherents to the Law, but it was because that was the situation with them anyway as Jews. Therefore there was not the same issue with them as there was with Gentile converts who were not subject to Jewish requirements.

But this is not the main issue of this thread, although an interesting point to make.

I will repeat my initial point - the signs the unconverted Jews were looking for, were not the signs following the preaching of the gospel. The Greeks (Gentiles) were seeking wisdom, not signs, so the miracles that occurred during Paul's ministry to them were nothing to do with Jewish "signs" in the heavens accrediting the introduction to their Messiah.

I think that the difficulties with the English language is the cause of Jewish "signs" being confused with the signs following the preaching of the gospel.

 

[CS1]

Yep. that's right! Anyway, discounting healing and deliverance for today's churches by misquoting the Scripture about Jews seeking signs is an old, tired, worn-out chestnut that should be laid to rest and remain dead and buried.

Any intelligent person who reads the book of Acts will clearly see that Paul had constant miracles happen along with his ministry, and because the Jews rejected his ministry, he turned to the Gentiles and that is where most of his miracles happened. He founded the Corinthian and Ephesian churches after the miracles of healing, and casting out of demons from pagans brought multitudes of converts into these churches.

I don't use Scripture quotes as "proof" texts, because anyone can cherry pick random verses out of context to try and prove their point.

We are all intelligent people here, and we don't use scripture quotes as "proof" texts, because you to can cherry-pick random verses out of context and try to prove your point.

See how that works? You can't make subtle accusations and assume we do not see your quiet insults.

And FYI, All the apostles had many miracles worked by God recorded in the book of Acts.

 

[Guojing]

You are correct that the initial group of early Christians were circumcised and adherents to the Law, but it was because that was the situation with them anyway as Jews. Therefore there was not the same issue with them as there was with Gentile converts who were not subject to Jewish requirements.

When I quoted Exodus 12:48, I was referring to gentiles who wanted to enter into the same covenant of Law God made with Israel in the OT.

Gentiles then had to become Jews in order to do that (Esther 8:17).

It was only decided in Acts 15 that Paul's gospel of the uncircumcision was a legitimate one. Gentiles who wanted to be saved no longer needed to be Jews.

As for Jews who want to be saved, they have to continue with the Law even after that, as Acts 21:20-25 indicated.

 

[throughfaith]

As we see in the book of Acts, more miracles of healing and casting out of demons happened when Paul preached the gospel to the Gentile pagans. The signs the unconverted Jewish leaders were looking for in relation to the Messiah (context is everything!) were nothing like the "signs following" the preaching of the gospel. The signs that Jesus showed of His Messiahship were the healing of the sick, and casting out of demons. The Jewish leaders rejected those signs, even though they witnessed the actual miracles, because they were not the signs they were looking for. The sign the Jewish leaders were looking for was for their Messiah to be a conquering hero who will come and eject the Romans and restore their sovereignty as a nation under God.

All you have to do is to just read the Bible, and then you will be able to separate the facts from what is being peddled from the imagination of heretical Cessationist teachers.

I haven't made any case for the gifts ' ceasing ' . I making the case they are for JEWS . JEWS REQUIRE A SIGN . JESUS SIGNS AND MIRACLES WERE FOR ISRAEL

 

[PaulChristensen]

When I quoted Exodus 12:48, I was referring to gentiles who wanted to enter into the same covenant of Law God made with Israel in the OT.

Gentiles then had to become Jews in order to do that (Esther 8:17).

It was only decided in Acts 15 that Paul's gospel of the uncircumcision was a legitimate one. Gentiles who wanted to be saved no longer needed to be Jews.

As for Jews who want to be saved, they have to continue with the Law even after that, as Acts 21:20-25 indicated.

If a Jew made it a requirement to continue with the Law as part of his salvation, he wouldn't be justified before God according to Paul, who said, that no one is justified by the Law. And because after the introduction of the New Covenant the distinction between Jew and Gentile disappeared and that all were one in Christ, any adherence to the Law is the result of being converted to Christ, and not a condition for a Jewish person to be converted.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I haven't made any case for the gifts ' ceasing ' . I making the case they are for JEWS . JEWS REQUIRE A SIGN . JESUS SIGNS AND MIRACLES WERE FOR ISRAEL

Granted that the signs and miracles of Jesus were for Israel because He said that He had come for the "lost sheep of Israel". But the signs and miracles continued through the Apostles and on to the Gentiles through the ministry of Paul.

Seeing that Paul is writing to the Corinthian church when he said that Jews require a sign, and Greeks seek wisdom, the context was not the miracles of Jesus at all. It was about the gospel of Christ and why the Jews find the cross an offense, and the Greeks treated it as foolishness.

So to relate the Jews seeking a sign and finding it through the miracles of Jesus, is quoting the Scripture right out of context and making it to say something that Paul never thought of or wrote.

the Jews seeking a sign is correct, but their seeking a sign caused them to reject Christ and have Him crucified because they didn't see the right signs from heaven to herald His arrival as Messiah. And Paul saying it gave his reason why the Jews mainly rejected the gospel of Christ.

It is also correct to say that the miracles of Jesus were for Israel. But to put the two together and to say that Jesus performed the miracles to give the Jew the sign they were looking for is something none of the gospel writers ever said.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I haven't made any case for the gifts ' ceasing ' . I making the case they are for JEWS . JEWS REQUIRE A SIGN . JESUS SIGNS AND MIRACLES WERE FOR ISRAEL

As for the spiritual gifts, Paul was writing to the Corinthian church which consisted mainly of Gentile believers. He wrote that the gifts of the Spirit were for the building up of the body of Christ, in which there are neither Jew nor Gentile, but were all one under Christ. If the gifts were and are for Jews only, then it doesn't make sense that Paul was instructing Gentile believers on the right way to prophesy and speak in tongues.

 

[throughfaith]

As for the spiritual gifts, Paul was writing to the Corinthian church which consisted mainly of Gentile believers. He wrote that the gifts of the Spirit were for the building up of the body of Christ, in which there are neither Jew nor Gentile, but were all one under Christ. If the gifts were and are for Jews only, then it doesn't make sense that Paul was instructing Gentile believers on the right way to prophesy and speak in tongues.

You've shifted the goal posts there. I didn't sT

As for the spiritual gifts, Paul was writing to the Corinthian church which consisted mainly of Gentile believers. He wrote that the gifts of the Spirit were for the building up of the body of Christ, in which there are neither Jew nor Gentile, but were all one under Christ. If the gifts were and are for Jews only, then it doesn't make sense that Paul was instructing Gentile believers on the right way to prophesy and speak in tongues.

I never said all Gifts are for Jews ?

 

[throughfaith]

Granted that the signs and miracles of Jesus were for Israel because He said that He had come for the "lost sheep of Israel". But the signs and miracles continued through the Apostles and on to the Gentiles through the ministry of Paul.

Seeing that Paul is writing to the Corinthian church when he said that Jews require a sign, and Greeks seek wisdom, the context was not the miracles of Jesus at all. It was about the gospel of Christ and why the Jews find the cross an offense, and the Greeks treated it as foolishness.

So to relate the Jews seeking a sign and finding it through the miracles of Jesus, is quoting the Scripture right out of context and making it to say something that Paul never thought of or wrote.

the Jews seeking a sign is correct, but their seeking a sign caused them to reject Christ and have Him crucified because they didn't see the right signs from heaven to herald His arrival as Messiah. And Paul saying it gave his reason why the Jews mainly rejected the gospel of Christ.

It is also correct to say that the miracles of Jesus were for Israel. But to put the two together and to say that Jesus performed the miracles to give the Jew the sign they were looking for is something none of the gospel writers ever said.

Could you quote the verses please ? Just so I know what your referring to ,thanks.

 

[throughfaith]

As for the spiritual gifts, Paul was writing to the Corinthian church which consisted mainly of Gentile believers. He wrote that the gifts of the Spirit were for the building up of the body of Christ, in which there are neither Jew nor Gentile, but were all one under Christ. If the gifts were and are for Jews only, then it doesn't make sense that Paul was instructing Gentile believers on the right way to prophesy and speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:22

King James Version



22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign , not to them that believe, but TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT : but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[throughfaith]

Prior to Paul, converts to Christ were Jews. It was Peter who was the first to realise that Gentiles could be converted and receive the Holy Spirit. He was confronted with that when he shared the gospel with the household of Cornelius. None of those people were circumcised, nor did they comply with Mosaic Law, yet they received the evidence of true conversion. Peter was able to report to the other Apostles that "these one received the Holy Spirit just the same as we did!"

Yes, Paul was the one who took the gospel to the Gentiles, and when the issue came up about circumcision and compliance with Mosaic Law, he opposed it. He asked the Galatian Christians, "who has bewitched you?" This was a strong statement from Paul clearly implying that it was a false doctrine that was leading Gentile converts away from Christ. He said that if a person decided that circumcision and compliance with Mosaic Law was a requirement for salvation, they were turning away from Christ, and they no longer had any part in Christ at all.

You are correct that the initial group of early Christians were circumcised and adherents to the Law, but it was because that was the situation with them anyway as Jews. Therefore there was not the same issue with them as there was with Gentile converts who were not subject to Jewish requirements.

But this is not the main issue of this thread, although an interesting point to make.

I will repeat my initial point - the signs the unconverted Jews were looking for, were not the signs following the preaching of the gospel. The Greeks (Gentiles) were seeking wisdom, not signs, so the miracles that occurred during Paul's ministry to them were nothing to do with Jewish "signs" in the heavens accrediting the introduction to their Messiah.

I think that the difficulties with the English language is the cause of Jewish "signs" being confused with the signs following the preaching of the gospel.

Peter doesn't realise until Acts 11 .. Paul comes along in Acts 9

 

[throughfaith]

Prior to Paul, converts to Christ were Jews. It was Peter who was the first to realise that Gentiles could be converted and receive the Holy Spirit. He was confronted with that when he shared the gospel with the household of Cornelius. None of those people were circumcised, nor did they comply with Mosaic Law, yet they received the evidence of true conversion. Peter was able to report to the other Apostles that "these one received the Holy Spirit just the same as we did!"

Yes, Paul was the one who took the gospel to the Gentiles, and when the issue came up about circumcision and compliance with Mosaic Law, he opposed it. He asked the Galatian Christians, "who has bewitched you?" This was a strong statement from Paul clearly implying that it was a false doctrine that was leading Gentile converts away from Christ. He said that if a person decided that circumcision and compliance with Mosaic Law was a requirement for salvation, they were turning away from Christ, and they no longer had any part in Christ at all.

You are correct that the initial group of early Christians were circumcised and adherents to the Law, but it was because that was the situation with them anyway as Jews. Therefore there was not the same issue with them as there was with Gentile converts who were not subject to Jewish requirements.

But this is not the main issue of this thread, although an interesting point to make.

I will repeat my initial point - the signs the unconverted Jews were looking for, were not the signs following the preaching of the gospel. The Greeks (Gentiles) were seeking wisdom, not signs, so the miracles that occurred during Paul's ministry to them were nothing to do with Jewish "signs" in the heavens accrediting the introduction to their Messiah.

I think that the difficulties with the English language is the cause of Jewish "signs" being confused with the signs following the preaching of the gospel.

you said
// Prior to Paul, converts to Christ were Jews. It was Peter who was the first to realise that Gentiles could be converted and receive the Holy Spirit. He was confronted with that when he shared the gospel with the household of Cornelius. None of those people were circumcised, nor did they comply with Mosaic Law, yet they received the evidence of true conversion ///
If you meant that Peter received the evidence that the gentiles can now be saved and recieve the Holy Spirit, then I agree. Again the ' evidence ' is not for Cornelius. The sign ( Tongues ) Was for Peter and the diciples

 

[PaulChristensen]

You've shifted the goal posts there. I didn't sT

I never said all Gifts are for Jews ?

This is what you actually said:
"I haven't made any case for the gifts ' ceasing ' . I making the case they are for JEWS".
so, I shouldn't take you literally when you said it?

 

[throughfaith]

Today's churches are nothing like the Early Church. From the 4th Century onwards, the established church was plagued with paganism, barren ceremony and ritual, seeking the will of God replaced by the authority of the bishops, the Holy Spirit as the Vicar of Christ replaced by the pope in Rome. That went on for over a 1000 years until the Reformation. The Reformers managed to deal with many of the falsehoods, but didn't go all the way to bring the church back to the absolutely purity and commitment to Christ that enabled the Holy Spirit to work with it as He did before.

We still have churches that resemble pagan temples, along with ceremonial and ritualistic services, non-New Testament priests (Anglican and Lutheran), unbelief (the same type that limited the power of Jesus in His home town) due to widespread Cessationist thinking, hypocrisy in terms of people attending church as "nominal" Sunday Christians with no real commitment to Christ, and very low standards of personal holiness, one-man-band ministries performing to passive "audiences".

Even the Pentecostal churches formed in the early 20th Century that initially featured many miraculous healings and deliverances from demon influence, have now largely gone the same way with such organised, planned services that programme the Holy Spirit right out of them. Many Pentecostal churches no longer have the Spiritual gifts operating in their services, and attending many is just like attending any Cessationist evangelical church.

Also, the ones that are claiming signs and wonders, are heretical WOF type churches fronted by people kike Kenny Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, and Joyce Meyer - where the gospel of Christ is not preached at all, and anyone who gets up and encourages people to put their faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, is ejected from the services by strong-armed security people.

And churches like Bethel and Hillsong are so corrupted by pagan ritual, occult music, hypnotic suggestion, and occult kundalini manifestation, that they are more akin to pagan temples than Christian churches, even though they make out that they are "Christian".

So, the signs and wonders don't accompany the preaching of the gospel today? Here you have the reasons why.

Some people think we should be like the early church as in the book of Acts . The book of Acts however is a transitional book ,nothing is established yet. Modelling todays church on Acts is like boarding a plane half built . And as for the early church we see in the epistles even with established doctrines ect we see error has crept into the church, there's false apostles, false letters, gnosctism is rife , paganism ( Corinthians) worldliness , error, wolves, Satan's ministers of righteousness. Angel s of light , satan hindering, ect ect . We need to grow not go back .

 

[throughfaith]

This is what you actually said:
"I haven't made any case for the gifts ' ceasing ' . I making the case they are for JEWS".
so, I shouldn't take you literally when you said it?

' SIGN' gifts . We were discussing Mark 16 .
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

And my argument was not about them ceasing. I never discussed that either way.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Could you quote the verses please ? Just so I know what your referring to ,thanks.

1 Corinthians 12:1-13
Notice verse 2: "Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led." This shows that Paul is writing to believers who were once Gentiles, not Jews.
Verse 7: "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal." Them and us.

 

[PaulChristensen]

you said
// Prior to Paul, converts to Christ were Jews. It was Peter who was the first to realise that Gentiles could be converted and receive the Holy Spirit. He was confronted with that when he shared the gospel with the household of Cornelius. None of those people were circumcised, nor did they comply with Mosaic Law, yet they received the evidence of true conversion ///
If you meant that Peter received the evidence that the gentiles can now be saved and recieve the Holy Spirit, then I agree. Again the ' evidence ' is not for Cornelius. The sign ( Tongues ) Was for Peter and the diciples

How do you explain that the languages were understood by the crowd that heard the disciples speaking in tongues. Why did Peter in his sermon to the crowd refer to the prophecy of Joel as a sign to them that the Holy Spirit had now arrived?

And if tongues was just a sign as it was on the Day of Pentecost, why does Paul refer it as a gift of the Spirit available to every man to profit withal (1 Corinthians 12:7) and gives detailed instructions on how it should be spoken in church?