Lord , Teach us To pray !
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yes amen I think we are saying the same thing with different words he did indeed pour out wrath and He took it also if that makes sense with what you are saying ?
what I mean is it wasn’t intended for him , he came and took it willfully for us hallelujah!! Because had we received it we couldn’t have overcome
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
Romans 1:18-19, 21-26, 28-32 KJV
what I’m saying is the wrath was pores out on all Mankind , and because of man being lost in that and doomed under that wrath , the lord came and took it for those who believe , which is where I believe your point comes in .
I was only saying the wrath was never meant for Jesus , it was meant for us . I think we were agreeing I apologize I’m not good at articulating sometimes
what I mean is it wasn’t intended for him , he came and took it willfully for us hallelujah!! Because had we received it we couldn’t have overcome
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
Romans 1:18-19, 21-26, 28-32 KJV
what I’m saying is the wrath was pores out on all Mankind , and because of man being lost in that and doomed under that wrath , the lord came and took it for those who believe , which is where I believe your point comes in .
I was only saying the wrath was never meant for Jesus , it was meant for us . I think we were agreeing I apologize I’m not good at articulating sometimes
No brother, that's not what I mean. During his ministry on earth, he didn't pour his wrath on any sinner. People committed terrible sins against him, but he did not bring them into judgement for it.
He curbed his anger against those who lied about him, spit on him, mocked and crucified him, giving them time to repent of those horrible sins. Just as his Father does.
No dear brother. Jesus was not suffering just wrath at the hands of his Father. He was suffering at the hands of liars, who bore false witness against him.
Thats ok. Sometimes I don't explain my views well. What I'm saying is, Jesus was not experiencing the wrath of God against sinners. He was experiencing the hate men have for God. And people who believe in Jesus may also experience that hatred. The Apostles and Prophets were persecuted by people who hated God.
Jesus said ,
But love your enemies.....and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil Lk.6:35
God will forgive the repentant, as Jesus showed, but there will come a day when the unrepentant will face the wrath of the Lamb.
He curbed his anger against those who lied about him, spit on him, mocked and crucified him, giving them time to repent of those horrible sins. Just as his Father does.
No dear brother. Jesus was not suffering just wrath at the hands of his Father. He was suffering at the hands of liars, who bore false witness against him.
Thats ok. Sometimes I don't explain my views well. What I'm saying is, Jesus was not experiencing the wrath of God against sinners. He was experiencing the hate men have for God. And people who believe in Jesus may also experience that hatred. The Apostles and Prophets were persecuted by people who hated God.
Jesus said ,
But love your enemies.....and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil Lk.6:35
God will forgive the repentant, as Jesus showed, but there will come a day when the unrepentant will face the wrath of the Lamb.
I can agree with some of your conclusions but we’re getting off track . Wrath is upon sin itself all ungodliness and unrighteousness of man . All sin is what brings wrath . It’s been so since the early days this is how wrath operates in response to sin
“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
Genesis 6:5-7, 11-13
that’s why Gids wrath even exists it is a response to sin and the source of evil in the world. The wrath is only upon sin and because of this it’s upon every sinner
so the way out is repentance and remission of sins .
but Christ died because sinners are all under this curse which is then beginning of wrath
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
All sinners are bound for wrath , the gospel is salvation from this wrath upon all the world because of sin
“Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.”
Isaiah 34:1-5 KJV
Salvation is sent out to all nations because of that curse we can be saved from the indignation of his wrath through Christ . Part of that is that he took our place in that curse of death upon the soul of every sinner. Anything that is not good is made of some form of Gods wrath against the sinfulness of mankind in the earth
in the end those who go to the eternal fire will be justice being served because they served evil in the earth. It’s the wickedness that Gods wrath is upon and why the fire will never be quenched against all evil it is the antithesis of good so it is the source of all wrath
“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
Genesis 6:5-7, 11-13
that’s why Gids wrath even exists it is a response to sin and the source of evil in the world. The wrath is only upon sin and because of this it’s upon every sinner
so the way out is repentance and remission of sins .
but Christ died because sinners are all under this curse which is then beginning of wrath
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
All sinners are bound for wrath , the gospel is salvation from this wrath upon all the world because of sin
“Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.”
Isaiah 34:1-5 KJV
Salvation is sent out to all nations because of that curse we can be saved from the indignation of his wrath through Christ . Part of that is that he took our place in that curse of death upon the soul of every sinner. Anything that is not good is made of some form of Gods wrath against the sinfulness of mankind in the earth
in the end those who go to the eternal fire will be justice being served because they served evil in the earth. It’s the wickedness that Gods wrath is upon and why the fire will never be quenched against all evil it is the antithesis of good so it is the source of all wrath
Jesus gives complete, wonderful instructions. First, we are told who to pray to, and that is the heavenly Father who gave us the Son and the Holy Spirt.
We are living in a fleshly world, but we are to ask for the Lord's Kingdom to reign here on earth. It is God's will that it be a wonderful place for us to live, we ask for that will to be done.
Our spiritual and earthly foods all come from the Lord, we are to ask for them.
We know that through forgiveness we receive of Christ we are saved, and ask for that forgiveness, promising to forgive others as is required of us to receive it for ourselves.
As we accept our salvation, we ask for help to live a life away from sin, with Christ, and ask for help with this. Help us not to be tempted.
We live with praise and worship for our lord.
This prayer leads us to a saved, Christian life.
We are living in a fleshly world, but we are to ask for the Lord's Kingdom to reign here on earth. It is God's will that it be a wonderful place for us to live, we ask for that will to be done.
Our spiritual and earthly foods all come from the Lord, we are to ask for them.
We know that through forgiveness we receive of Christ we are saved, and ask for that forgiveness, promising to forgive others as is required of us to receive it for ourselves.
As we accept our salvation, we ask for help to live a life away from sin, with Christ, and ask for help with this. Help us not to be tempted.
We live with praise and worship for our lord.
This prayer leads us to a saved, Christian life.
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Yes, that's right and any time a person ignores this, he's off track.
You're on track.
Right. Only sinners are under the curse, which is why death had no power over Christ.
Right, You're on track. That soul will die, not someone else will die in place of that soul,
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20
The people of Gods curse are people who break the law. Not a keeper of the law. Isa.34 is about the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God and his victory over evil on earth and in the heavenlies. This is not about God taking vengence on himself.
You're off track. Jesus only "became a curse for us" in the eyes of those who called him a blasphemer.
I believe all evil will end.
I'm not a proponent of unending torment, but thats another matter.[/QUOTE]
You're on track.
Right. Only sinners are under the curse, which is why death had no power over Christ.
Right, You're on track. That soul will die, not someone else will die in place of that soul,
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20
The people of Gods curse are people who break the law. Not a keeper of the law. Isa.34 is about the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God and his victory over evil on earth and in the heavenlies. This is not about God taking vengence on himself.
You're off track. Jesus only "became a curse for us" in the eyes of those who called him a blasphemer.
I believe all evil will end.
I'm not a proponent of unending torment, but thats another matter.[/QUOTE]
The other day I was listening outside the door of a meeting with the brick layers , at work , as i was passing. I overheard one of the bricklayers say " hey boss could you show us how we should safely secure the scaffold " The response was a detailed safety instruction by the boss ..Now I thought it was interesting , I even learned a little. But I.ll never be on a scaffold with my Job ,so as much as I learned I knew the instruction was not for me . I'm not a bricklayer. The meeting was specifically with bricklayers about their Job and what THEY had to follow .
[/QUOTE]
just one thing to point to in response thank you for the good thorough reply and good thoughts
“Right, You're on track. That soul will die, not someone else will die in place of that soul,
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20”
this is the gospel brother it is how the only possible way , we can be saved By Jesus dying for us under that conclusion we both agreed on regarding sin in fact someone else has died in our place , that’s the glory of our God , it wasn’t just anyone but he himself came to be one of us , overcome all our flaws in the human nature and choose by his own will because he loves us to himself be that propitiation exclusively for us and all our sins please consider
“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”
1 Peter 2:24
“Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
2 Corinthians 5:20-21
Gods wrath is upon sin , sinfulness all the unrighteousness that exists from a lie , to a murder . Everything between and beyond is why Gods wrath has always been in the world since the flood came became of the wickedness of man.
sin brings wrath and without sin there is no wrath. Because man has sin , wrath is coming and is here and has been here it’s why we die , have diseases , why we aren’t safe among each other as some hurt others , steal, lie , cheat. God hates sin because it is the source of every harm ever done to any of his beloved people in this world from the beginning
sin itself the entity , from Abels murder is the source of everything wrong in creation it is the will of the devil in the world. And this is what calls and creates and is the source of all wrath in the world and also to come in the end finale.
the thing is brother if we are held to account we’re all dead and can’t be saved that’s the reason Jesus had to live perfect and die in our place for our wrongs if we die in then we can’t be redeemed
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
John 8:24 KJV
“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
Matthew 26:28 KJV
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
1 John 2:2
The reason we call It salvation is we’re being saved from the Old Testament judgement that you are seeing there “ every living soul will die for their own sins
But the conclusion is that all have sinned and fallen short of that so all were dead in sin , there was no
Man to Intercede for men left
“And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.”
Isaiah 59:14-17 KJV
part of his mission on earth was to be a humble and perfect man under the law , overcoming all temptation and having done no sin in the flesh , so that he could die for us who have sinned and had no hope of eternal life because the law concludes “ the soul that sinneth shall die “ and the scripture concludes all under sin
without him dying for us , there is no possiblility of salvation because we’re guilty with the world and sentenced to death by sin
just one thing to point to in response thank you for the good thorough reply and good thoughts
“Right, You're on track. That soul will die, not someone else will die in place of that soul,
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20”
this is the gospel brother it is how the only possible way , we can be saved By Jesus dying for us under that conclusion we both agreed on regarding sin in fact someone else has died in our place , that’s the glory of our God , it wasn’t just anyone but he himself came to be one of us , overcome all our flaws in the human nature and choose by his own will because he loves us to himself be that propitiation exclusively for us and all our sins please consider
“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”
1 Peter 2:24
“Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
2 Corinthians 5:20-21
Gods wrath is upon sin , sinfulness all the unrighteousness that exists from a lie , to a murder . Everything between and beyond is why Gods wrath has always been in the world since the flood came became of the wickedness of man.
sin brings wrath and without sin there is no wrath. Because man has sin , wrath is coming and is here and has been here it’s why we die , have diseases , why we aren’t safe among each other as some hurt others , steal, lie , cheat. God hates sin because it is the source of every harm ever done to any of his beloved people in this world from the beginning
sin itself the entity , from Abels murder is the source of everything wrong in creation it is the will of the devil in the world. And this is what calls and creates and is the source of all wrath in the world and also to come in the end finale.
the thing is brother if we are held to account we’re all dead and can’t be saved that’s the reason Jesus had to live perfect and die in our place for our wrongs if we die in then we can’t be redeemed
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
John 8:24 KJV
“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
Matthew 26:28 KJV
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
1 John 2:2
The reason we call It salvation is we’re being saved from the Old Testament judgement that you are seeing there “ every living soul will die for their own sins
But the conclusion is that all have sinned and fallen short of that so all were dead in sin , there was no
Man to Intercede for men left
“And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.”
Isaiah 59:14-17 KJV
part of his mission on earth was to be a humble and perfect man under the law , overcoming all temptation and having done no sin in the flesh , so that he could die for us who have sinned and had no hope of eternal life because the law concludes “ the soul that sinneth shall die “ and the scripture concludes all under sin
without him dying for us , there is no possiblility of salvation because we’re guilty with the world and sentenced to death by sin
Brother,
Eze.18 is teaching the truly repentant will be forgiven. Our Lord did die for our welfare, but not in place of us. He lived in sacrifice to his Father and was hated for it, sinned against, so that we would
see the injustice being done to God and repent of it,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1Pet.1:21
Jesus overcame the temptations which satan tried to attck him with through his own human nature. He overcame the devil by his own Spirit and gives us his Spirit to do the same.
"He bore our sins on the tree" Peter is saying what was done to Jesus was sinful and he bore it. Look at the verses before it,
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:20-21
They became ambassadors for Christ and suffered for it,
for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. Gal.6:17
He's saying Jesus, who committed no sin, was defamed, he was lied against,
we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24
"If this man were not a criminal, we would not have handed him over to you." Jn.18:30
God will forgive people who are sorry for sinning against him,
There are six things that the LORD hates, even seven things that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift to run to evil, a false witness who pours out lies, and a person who spreads discord among family members. Pro.6:16-19
All 7 sins were committed against Jesus.
According to the scriptures,
he was numbered with the transgressors Isa.53:12, Mk.15:28
God didn't count his Son as a transgressor. The religious leasers did.
Propitiation means to make intercession for,
And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Lk.13:8-9
Eze.18 is teaching the truly repentant will be forgiven. Our Lord did die for our welfare, but not in place of us. He lived in sacrifice to his Father and was hated for it, sinned against, so that we would
see the injustice being done to God and repent of it,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1Pet.1:21
Jesus overcame the temptations which satan tried to attck him with through his own human nature. He overcame the devil by his own Spirit and gives us his Spirit to do the same.
"He bore our sins on the tree" Peter is saying what was done to Jesus was sinful and he bore it. Look at the verses before it,
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:20-21
They became ambassadors for Christ and suffered for it,
for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. Gal.6:17
He's saying Jesus, who committed no sin, was defamed, he was lied against,
we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24
"If this man were not a criminal, we would not have handed him over to you." Jn.18:30
God will forgive people who are sorry for sinning against him,
There are six things that the LORD hates, even seven things that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift to run to evil, a false witness who pours out lies, and a person who spreads discord among family members. Pro.6:16-19
All 7 sins were committed against Jesus.
According to the scriptures,
he was numbered with the transgressors Isa.53:12, Mk.15:28
God didn't count his Son as a transgressor. The religious leasers did.
Propitiation means to make intercession for,
And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Lk.13:8-9
honestly you think it’s improper that Jesus died for our sins ?
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV
it’s the foundation of Christianity why he died he died for your sins and for my sins and for everyone else’s sins .
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV
it’s the foundation of Christianity why he died he died for your sins and for my sins and for everyone else’s sins .
According to the scriptures I know it's not improper. According to the scriptures, the Messiah was regarded as a sinner, but not by his Father.
For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
And also, according to the scriptures, it would be improper for God to exact justice on an innocent man for what a guilty man did. Read Eze.18:1-4. The foundation of real Christianity is that God forgives the repentant,
to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa.66:2
For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
And also, according to the scriptures, it would be improper for God to exact justice on an innocent man for what a guilty man did. Read Eze.18:1-4. The foundation of real Christianity is that God forgives the repentant,
to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa.66:2
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Brother Jesus is God who came and was the perfect man , to take by his own will that death and sufffering upon himself for the very purpose of saving sinners who without him doing that in thier place would die in thoer sins it’s he whole beauty of why we love Jesus why he is worthy to give all
Of our heart and soul to lovong him in return
it’s that he wasn’t considered a sinner only by sinful men he is the only one who could have died as a man and rose up because sin has rights in death , but death has no hold on a man without sin.
Jesus would have never died if he hadn’t died for our sins and we could have never been promised eternal
Life of we died without his death formoir sins .
It is what he’s done for us justice says every sinner must die according to the law but no one was good enough to intercede for man so Jesus came and was the perfect man overcoming our flaws and then he laid down his life of his own will for us that’s the reconciliation there of what I’m saying to what you are saying I think
his life wasn’t taken from him , he wasn’t punished we were all going to be damned in hades so he willingly came from heaven and took it upon himself so anyone who puts thier faith in him dies as if they hadn’t sinned because he died for their sins who repent and believe the gospel
baptism further explains its meaning for us which to me really began teaching me repentance for real
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”
Romans 6:3-4, 6-12 KJV
part of being dead to sin is to be dead to the law that gives knowledge of sin
“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;
that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
Romans 7:1, 4
See just because our sins are remitted according to The law doesn’t mean we aren’t held to account now we are not under Moses law , but we’re of Therese of the spirit so we’re going to be judged by what Jesus said not what Moses said we have died formoir sins through Christ according to Moses now we are to live in the judgements of Christ rather than Moses because christs blood paid for our souls we have to answer to his words
Jesus was considered a sinner ? I’m getting lost in what you are saying I apologize
Of our heart and soul to lovong him in return
it’s that he wasn’t considered a sinner only by sinful men he is the only one who could have died as a man and rose up because sin has rights in death , but death has no hold on a man without sin.
Jesus would have never died if he hadn’t died for our sins and we could have never been promised eternal
Life of we died without his death formoir sins .
It is what he’s done for us justice says every sinner must die according to the law but no one was good enough to intercede for man so Jesus came and was the perfect man overcoming our flaws and then he laid down his life of his own will for us that’s the reconciliation there of what I’m saying to what you are saying I think
his life wasn’t taken from him , he wasn’t punished we were all going to be damned in hades so he willingly came from heaven and took it upon himself so anyone who puts thier faith in him dies as if they hadn’t sinned because he died for their sins who repent and believe the gospel
baptism further explains its meaning for us which to me really began teaching me repentance for real
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”
Romans 6:3-4, 6-12 KJV
part of being dead to sin is to be dead to the law that gives knowledge of sin
“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;
that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
Romans 7:1, 4
See just because our sins are remitted according to The law doesn’t mean we aren’t held to account now we are not under Moses law , but we’re of Therese of the spirit so we’re going to be judged by what Jesus said not what Moses said we have died formoir sins through Christ according to Moses now we are to live in the judgements of Christ rather than Moses because christs blood paid for our souls we have to answer to his words
Jesus was considered a sinner ? I’m getting lost in what you are saying I apologize
Romans 6:2 How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
There were laws given through Moses, but from the Lord, that are obsolete through the Holy Spirit given to all at Pentecost. They were called "the laws of Moses". That would be made clear if our scriptures were written in the Hebrew language. As the Greek has no word that would make this clear they used the Greek word nomo, and this is translated as law in English.
Moses did not give any scripture that was personally from the human Moses, for all Moses wrote was from the Lord. There is no difference between Christ's law and Moses's law. It is all scripture inspired by God.
There were laws given through Moses, but from the Lord, that are obsolete through the Holy Spirit given to all at Pentecost. They were called "the laws of Moses". That would be made clear if our scriptures were written in the Hebrew language. As the Greek has no word that would make this clear they used the Greek word nomo, and this is translated as law in English.
Moses did not give any scripture that was personally from the human Moses, for all Moses wrote was from the Lord. There is no difference between Christ's law and Moses's law. It is all scripture inspired by God.
Jesus is God and because of that, he doesn't need to have himself killed to forgive sin,
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. Lk,5:20
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Psa.34:18
Read also Lk.7:36-50.
Right and because he rose from death, we believe in him. Our faith that God forgives the repentant is because of his life.
You're right that he freely laid his life down. No one could take it from him, but by this, he showed how God in the OT truly is, forgiving sinners who treated him with disrespect, patiently enduring the injustice of men, until they repented.
The purpose of the law is to define all wrongdoing as against God,
that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Rom.7:13
The true purpose of the law is to cause us to ask forgivness of God. Baptism symbplizes the death of the flesh.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom.8:13
Yes brother, he had false witness against him,
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal.3:13
No one is cursed for hanging on a tree. People are cursed for breaking a law whereby they could be put to death on a tree. Read the OT passage Paul is citing. You'll see it.
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. Lk,5:20
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Psa.34:18
Read also Lk.7:36-50.
Right and because he rose from death, we believe in him. Our faith that God forgives the repentant is because of his life.
You're right that he freely laid his life down. No one could take it from him, but by this, he showed how God in the OT truly is, forgiving sinners who treated him with disrespect, patiently enduring the injustice of men, until they repented.
The purpose of the law is to define all wrongdoing as against God,
that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Rom.7:13
The true purpose of the law is to cause us to ask forgivness of God. Baptism symbplizes the death of the flesh.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom.8:13
Yes brother, he had false witness against him,
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal.3:13
No one is cursed for hanging on a tree. People are cursed for breaking a law whereby they could be put to death on a tree. Read the OT passage Paul is citing. You'll see it.
Sure it’s all scripture , Moses law is meant for a different purpose not salvation it’s meant for this
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:19-20 KJV
no ones saying God didn’t give Moses the commands of the law of course he did . The law is not for saving souls it’s for condemning sinners by revealing the knowledge of their sins to them and it’s correlating punishment which is death .
there is absolutely no justification in any part of the law it cannot justify a sinner no matter what they do it only calls for a sinners condemnation and subsequent death for their sins that the law makes them aware of
it cannot justify anyone and it is not made of faith
“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident:
for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
Galatians 3:11-12 KJV
To try to serve God now by the law is a curse upon the person
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:
for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
Galatians 3:10 KJV
the moment someone transgressed the law in any way it proves them guilty of sin and gives them this knowledge . What this is meant to do by condemning them to death for thier sin .....is to bring them Christ and the gospel
once a sinner turns to Christ the law has no lord authority over them Christ now does and it is a very very different word so different as life and death are different
one saves souls that the other had condemned if they will repent and believe him so yes God spoke both but one is not the same as the other one is meant for condemning sinners , the other is for calling them to repentance and saving them
I would disagree that they aren’t different completely they are meant to be because on is for the flesh the condemned and the other is for saving the soul
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:19-20 KJV
no ones saying God didn’t give Moses the commands of the law of course he did . The law is not for saving souls it’s for condemning sinners by revealing the knowledge of their sins to them and it’s correlating punishment which is death .
there is absolutely no justification in any part of the law it cannot justify a sinner no matter what they do it only calls for a sinners condemnation and subsequent death for their sins that the law makes them aware of
it cannot justify anyone and it is not made of faith
“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident:
for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
Galatians 3:11-12 KJV
To try to serve God now by the law is a curse upon the person
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:
for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
Galatians 3:10 KJV
the moment someone transgressed the law in any way it proves them guilty of sin and gives them this knowledge . What this is meant to do by condemning them to death for thier sin .....is to bring them Christ and the gospel
once a sinner turns to Christ the law has no lord authority over them Christ now does and it is a very very different word so different as life and death are different
one saves souls that the other had condemned if they will repent and believe him so yes God spoke both but one is not the same as the other one is meant for condemning sinners , the other is for calling them to repentance and saving them
I would disagree that they aren’t different completely they are meant to be because on is for the flesh the condemned and the other is for saving the soul
Mayes he actually did have to become a
Man and die because what he said has to be true it has to be fulfilled. So he said “anyone who sins must die “ if that doesn’t happen then what he said is not true and not immutable but it always is . Everything comes from what he said .
because this is the fate of every man because God said it
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
are you seeing what I’m saying that’s true so everything then ends because scripture concludes that all of us are sinners , all mankind is under that sentence of death whether we lied once or stole once this is the conclusion. Upon sinners by Gods declaration that is certain and must be fulfilled
it’s true from this one
“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:17
That’s sin and death for all of us the soul who transgressed must be out to death by Gods determinate are word it is impossible for that not to be true . He doesn’t say “ never mind I forgive you “ until that decree is fulfilled
christs death fulfills this for anyone who believes
“And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree,
but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.”
Deuteronomy 21:22-23 KJV
what Christ has done is what they couldn’t believe either do you see above where all sin is death for everyone who sins ? Christ took the place of the sinner who is declared under death for their sins
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
Galatians 3:13-14 KJV
Christs death is the fulfillment of a believers punishment for their sins so that Gods word of death for sin is fulfilled through thier faith in him ( back to baptism into his death for thier sins )
Because he died in the sinners place , the sinner is told
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
Acts 2:38-41
do you see why Jesus needed to be born a man love perfectly and die in the lost dead sinners place to fulfill Gods word prior that all Sinners must die ?
and how it applies to a believer ? And what this means to us regarding remission ?
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”
Romans 6:3-4, 6-7, 10-12 KJV
The power over sin is the gospel when we repent and believe Jesus brother don’t be like these folks who didn’t see him and hear him when he came to declare the wonders that defy our thinking about justice and how we judge things consider the wonders of Gods mercy and truth
Consider this if nothing else
“Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.”
Acts 13:38-41
Gods word has to be fulfilled Jesus death fulfilled the laws conclusion upon the believer in him . Repentance comes when we begin to acknowledge the truth of the gospel it’s the only way
Jesus death is the only sacrifice ever to be made for sins because he was the perfect man who laid down his life for sinners to give them hope through repentance that was not available under the law so he fulfilled the law upon himself for us to have hope of life through him
he died for sinners who don’t pretend they aren’t in other words those who acknowledge thier sins in the gospel and forget about the flesh of the law that has to die and we have to get our souls right through the spirit
there is a New Testament that saves us from sin and Jesus death for the sinner is the first and foremost Point of everything we are promised because it fulfills what is already declared upon a sinner
if not thier dead forever and cursed like the man hanging on the tree for his own sins , God hung there for us in our place and then said repent and believe me and you will live.
God doesn’t wing it , his words are always fulfilled both good and evil . He repents sometimes when people interceded like Moses , the prophets , Daniel ect but only until the apppinted Time of fulfillment which was the gospel all that came beforehand was a witness
that Christ would be born in the flesh , teach Gods true judgements to the world both Jew and gentile , die for thier sins and be raised up and any who believed in him would be given remission of their sins through his death
they would receive mercy , grace , a new spirit and heart with Gods truth written on it the law of the spirit which is why salvation is based upon bearing and believing the gospel because it’s this being fulfilled
“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
Isaiah 53:5-6 KJV
all
Prophecy speaks of it in various forms much more about his words that would come in truth and judgement and clarity for salvation but his death for the sins of the people has always been witnesses in the law and prophets it’s what they couldn’t believe he was doing
Good is that good that to fulfill his word of death he would suffer our punishment who did wrong and deserved it , so we can now repent and believe and be saved . There’s no mother way
Man and die because what he said has to be true it has to be fulfilled. So he said “anyone who sins must die “ if that doesn’t happen then what he said is not true and not immutable but it always is . Everything comes from what he said .
because this is the fate of every man because God said it
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
are you seeing what I’m saying that’s true so everything then ends because scripture concludes that all of us are sinners , all mankind is under that sentence of death whether we lied once or stole once this is the conclusion. Upon sinners by Gods declaration that is certain and must be fulfilled
it’s true from this one
“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:17
That’s sin and death for all of us the soul who transgressed must be out to death by Gods determinate are word it is impossible for that not to be true . He doesn’t say “ never mind I forgive you “ until that decree is fulfilled
christs death fulfills this for anyone who believes
“And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree,
but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.”
Deuteronomy 21:22-23 KJV
what Christ has done is what they couldn’t believe either do you see above where all sin is death for everyone who sins ? Christ took the place of the sinner who is declared under death for their sins
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
Galatians 3:13-14 KJV
Christs death is the fulfillment of a believers punishment for their sins so that Gods word of death for sin is fulfilled through thier faith in him ( back to baptism into his death for thier sins )
Because he died in the sinners place , the sinner is told
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
Acts 2:38-41
do you see why Jesus needed to be born a man love perfectly and die in the lost dead sinners place to fulfill Gods word prior that all Sinners must die ?
and how it applies to a believer ? And what this means to us regarding remission ?
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”
Romans 6:3-4, 6-7, 10-12 KJV
The power over sin is the gospel when we repent and believe Jesus brother don’t be like these folks who didn’t see him and hear him when he came to declare the wonders that defy our thinking about justice and how we judge things consider the wonders of Gods mercy and truth
Consider this if nothing else
“Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.”
Acts 13:38-41
Gods word has to be fulfilled Jesus death fulfilled the laws conclusion upon the believer in him . Repentance comes when we begin to acknowledge the truth of the gospel it’s the only way
Jesus death is the only sacrifice ever to be made for sins because he was the perfect man who laid down his life for sinners to give them hope through repentance that was not available under the law so he fulfilled the law upon himself for us to have hope of life through him
he died for sinners who don’t pretend they aren’t in other words those who acknowledge thier sins in the gospel and forget about the flesh of the law that has to die and we have to get our souls right through the spirit
there is a New Testament that saves us from sin and Jesus death for the sinner is the first and foremost Point of everything we are promised because it fulfills what is already declared upon a sinner
if not thier dead forever and cursed like the man hanging on the tree for his own sins , God hung there for us in our place and then said repent and believe me and you will live.
God doesn’t wing it , his words are always fulfilled both good and evil . He repents sometimes when people interceded like Moses , the prophets , Daniel ect but only until the apppinted Time of fulfillment which was the gospel all that came beforehand was a witness
that Christ would be born in the flesh , teach Gods true judgements to the world both Jew and gentile , die for thier sins and be raised up and any who believed in him would be given remission of their sins through his death
they would receive mercy , grace , a new spirit and heart with Gods truth written on it the law of the spirit which is why salvation is based upon bearing and believing the gospel because it’s this being fulfilled
“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
Isaiah 53:5-6 KJV
all
Prophecy speaks of it in various forms much more about his words that would come in truth and judgement and clarity for salvation but his death for the sins of the people has always been witnesses in the law and prophets it’s what they couldn’t believe he was doing
Good is that good that to fulfill his word of death he would suffer our punishment who did wrong and deserved it , so we can now repent and believe and be saved . There’s no mother way
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze.18:27-28
Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. Mt.27
Brother,
Continue to ignore what I've shown you. It's for others now.
Eze.18:27-28
Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. Mt.27
Brother,
Continue to ignore what I've shown you. It's for others now.
